CMBN vs. APOS, and the future of CMx2(?).

[cool breeze]

Its late and im tired and i know this is in bad taste and what have you, along with being a couple pages late, but....

Stiener14, always good for a laugh....

oh wait hes not funny

[Jaeger Jonzo]

I just bought AP:Op Star as i was missing my Ost front fix and got to say that what i have seen and enjoyed out of it so far is excellent. The attention to detail is staggering. I have only fought two smallish (several platoons) of mixed armour and infantry engagements so far, so too early to tell how it performs at higher force levels but so far the AI have fought well enough and i have been left jaw dropped by the graphics and realistic battle scenes.

I hit a T34 that caught fire, rumbled on for a few more metres whilst the hatches popped open and a crewman on fire tumbled out onto the snow ! All this while flares are fired into the air, real looking tracers zip across the snow covered land, trees are knocked over as AFv's hit them, buildings catch fire then collapse, crewmen sit perched in (correct) hatch openings on the move etc.

The landscape looks very real, based as it is on satellite topography and ww2 maps of the region.

CMBN, good as it is, should take a good look at some of the features in AP:OS. If you like the eastern front, its a dream come true!

[Wodin]

I stopped playing them after playing CM Shock Force, .

Funny thing is once I started playing Shock force then went to play ARMA2 I though erm hang on I'd rather play Shock Force than this. Though both different genres I foudn Shock force far more realistic and enjoyable than ARMA2...

In every ARMA game yet I hate it when it goes to the point where you have to control more than your squad (which I found a struggle as it was and prefered just playing a squad member rather than leader) becuas eit became so unwieldy and for me not fun at all, again i said to myself I'd rather be playing Shock force.

So CMSF finished off ARMA for me. Thats the first time a game from one genre out a game from another I think for me anyway.

[AslakH]

I've played every single Flashpoint game (it confuses the younger crowd, because they never played Operation Flashpoint), and I include ArmA on that list.

Many friends played ArmA2, so I bought in on the hype. It had to be better than ArmA, you know, since this had a 2 at the end. Wrong. It still feels like the old Operation Flashpoint.

I've logged 10x more time in CMSF than I have in ArmA1 or 2.

A few years ago a buddy of mine was going through OCS (I think it's called that in the US), and borrowed Operation Flashpoint to get some "practice". I laughed so hard.

[LJFHutch]

Flashpoint was awesome, it was a bit more authentic than the others, especially now they're doing a war on Greece in 2025 over super weapons or something

I'm really interested in AP but CM has so much detail in unit positioning, damage etc I don't think I could play another RTS ever again AP certainly does have some awesome features though, and it would be cool to see some make it into CM.

I suppose my hesitation comes from ToW2: it looked and sounded cool but I felt like it didn't want me playing it, I had so few choices that I felt I may as well let the AI play it for me while I watched the pretty explosions. I the problem with many games is the lack of re-playability and content. I was looking at Graviteam's latest game - the tank sim - and while it looks cool I get the feeling I'd play it for an hour or two and then that'd be it: I'd have seen everything there is to see.

[DMS]

Now that point about the physics part I find interesting. Knowing nothing about APOS, I find myself wondering how accurate the meaningful (read: not eye candy) physics portion of that game is. Do they account for all the factors that CNBM does? 3D slope effects, armor type, shell type, velocity (shatter gap anyone?), etc, etc. All the stuff that causes me to like CMBN.

I had played this game. Yes, the physics is simulated well. I was wondered, when German APC overturned after near artillery shell hit. Tanks can slide down in the water. There is "statistic" mode, where you can check every armor hit, penetration, damage etc. All that factors are accounted.

In my opinion, vehicle combat is simulated better in AP, infantry combat - in CMBN.

[LJFHutch]

In my opinion, vehicle combat is simulated better in AP, infantry combat - in CMBN.

I didn't see anything bigger than those tractor APCs when I tried the demo yesterday but the infantry (well, everything to me) felt as though it was just two forces marching toward each other and shooting until one won. I found myself just sitting there looking at trees and infantry all the time and hardly any of my experience was actually doing anything. The most I could really do was selecting my units and then moving them at the enemy, hoping that they would win.

[noxnoctum]

Ya I'd kill for a proper MP lobby with wego tcp-ip.

Honestly I wish they'd put everything else on hold till we got that in the game. Because playing people is the way to go, and having to resort to PBEM is... ya just feels really really dated in 2012 and keeps the multiplayer community from being as competitive and "lively" as it could be.

Eye candy I don't really care that much about. It's nice and all, but it's entirely secondary for me. As for the AI I agree it's pretty terrible and easily exploited, mostly cause it has no real ability to react to your moves, but in BFC's defense I don't think *anyone* could program a decent AI for a wargame, which brings us back to the importance of multiplayer .

I know BFC says all the time most of their customers play SP only, but I think that's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If they invested more in the MP I think a lot more people would play it and I think the game series itself would become more popular. I've hardly played MP myself at all for CMBN even though of course I much prefer human opponents, because it's a hassle to even find an opponent, and I hate dragging battles out for a month or more. Totally kills the tension.

If practically every other type of game/genre practically is headed towards multiplayer more and more these days, no reason wargaming shouldn't be as well.

[LJFHutch]

Ya I'd kill for a proper MP lobby with wego tcp-ip.

Absolutely, even if it was outside the game and you ran a little "CM Normandy MP.exe" that had an external lobby which booted the game and entered the IP and all that by itself it would be great. You could specify RT/Wego or even Pbem, match size, max/min duration etc and filter by opponents who meet your criteria, maybe start a chat and/or invite to MP.

It's the same here for MP as well: I really couldn't be bothered trying to set up a game, it's a real hassle.

[Erwin]

I tried playing multi player other games (America's Army etc) and after a while grew to hate it. Stupid human child players running around like demented rabbits using all the tricks they know, demented button pushers who can rival an MG44 for their speed, all playing an souped up equipment specifically designed to be faster than you, and they have the reactions of kids. No time for tactical thinking. And every scenario started to feel the same.

It literally gave me a headache and heart palpitations. I couldn't take the stress and BS of those games. That's why I play CM series and thank god it's the way it is,so I can play at MY speed thank you very much.

If CM ever goes online multiplayer, that will be the end for me, and I suspect the vast majority of people on BFC and BoB forums.

[tdogg]

I doubt cm online mp only will ever happen, BF is to committed to their grog style historical fan base to let that happen....thank god.

[poesel]

Do you really think it would be the end if we could play CMBN with multiple players on each side with Wego or RT? That would be pure joy!

Beating other humans H2H is where the fun is but beating others together is even more fun! Imagine all the bickering going off here after a 4 vs 4!

[Childress]

Sound like a gas. But we are you going to find that many players for such a niche game?

[Apocalypse 31]

Do you really think it would be the end if we could play CMBN with multiple players on each side with Wego or RT? That would be pure joy!

Beating other humans H2H is where the fun is but beating others together is even more fun! Imagine all the bickering going off here after a 4 vs 4!

Coop is where its at. Everyone wants to fight along side their buddies!

[dan/california]

Even some absolutely basic things like being able to get PBEM files back and forth without leaving the game would be huge. DropBox simplifies things hugely, but a little integration with it or a similar service would be huge.

[noxnoctum]

I tried playing multi player other games (America's Army etc) and after a while grew to hate it. Stupid human child players running around like demented rabbits using all the tricks they know, demented button pushers who can rival an MG44 for their speed, all playing an souped up equipment specifically designed to be faster than you, and they have the reactions of kids. No time for tactical thinking. And every scenario started to feel the same.

It literally gave me a headache and heart palpitations. I couldn't take the stress and BS of those games. That's why I play CM series and thank god it's the way it is,so I can play at MY speed thank you very much.

If CM ever goes online multiplayer, that will be the end for me, and I suspect the vast majority of people on BFC and BoB forums.

Why? That makes no sense. Play with no timer and take as long as you like on your turns (and your opponent won't be bored since he's plotting his move as well) and there ya go.

If the only difference between CMBB and CMBN was that there was a lobby in CMBN to more easily find and start a wego tcp-ip game you'd abandon it? The additions I advocate would just mean you can play human opponents, live, online in wego, and don't have to post on a forum or track someone down on ICQ to do it.

Online multiplayer (or having a lobby rather since we already have online multiplayer) =/= gameplay becomes a clickfest or is dumbed down in any way. They have absolutely nothing to do with each other. The frustration you felt with the online games you mention has nothing to do with them being online, it's just their gameplay design. We already have "online multiplayer" for CMBN, it's just limited to real time, and has no lobby.

If you're concerned about the game giving you heart palpations, I'd be more worried about the RT that BFC has introduced, rather than some online element.

And co-play is merely something BFC themselves have brought up. I don't think having a 2v2 match of CM would result in the kind of experience you described any more than 5 hour matches of Axis and Allies I've played online have... games with 5-6 different people controlling the various countries and constantly chatting and bickering over the proper course to take, with extended debates on the advantages of moving a single unit here rather than there.

Can you imagine the fun of linking up with (for example) 3 other people from BoB for a wego game and having to coordinate your efforts with another commander on your side? Again, wego just makes so much more sense here than RT, because you'd have plenty of time to hash it out and discuss your plans with your teammate while still in the planning phase.

And all this without the hassle of having to figure out everyone's IP address. Instead you just host a game in the lobby, password it (if you're waiting for someone specific) and bingo. Play for a couple hours (or whatever), maybe then someone has to leave, so you save it and continue another day.

I know that if there was a lobby in CMBN I would definitely idle there plenty, which is what could lead to a much stronger online community since I would be able to find games against HUMAN opponents much more easily.

[Ranger33]

Anyone who doesn't know why people want 4v4 online has obviously never played Men of War. It offers exactly that and it is a total blast. Only problem is the lack of CM style realism. One rifleman with a few AT-grenades can wipe out a platoon of tanks in 30 seconds flat, then patch up those bullet holes in his chest with a few bandages

[noxnoctum]

Ya I find it a bit odd honestly why people think that having a lobby and multiple people on a team instantly turns it into some sort of twitch game.

I hate RT and frequently take 1-2 hours on just setting up so I'm the last person that would be interested in that sort of gameplay.

[Ranger33]

Ya I find it a bit odd honestly why people think that having a lobby and multiple people on a team instantly turns it into some sort of twitch game.

I hate RT and frequently take 1-2 hours on just setting up so I'm the last person that would be interested in that sort of gameplay.

Haha, that's been my exact experience with RT, it takes longer to find someone, figure out how to connect to each other, wait for each other to pick units and place them, etc, than to actually play.

Co-op would be so much fun, for all the reasons you stated above. I think it could work for PBEM just as well. It might take a long time to get through a big scenario with the file having to go through multiple hands, but it would make for great discussion and with dropbox it wouldn't be hard to manage. A 4v4 Eastern front battle with each player handling a company of infantry for each side would be epic. Even if you only managed 2-3 turns a week it would be worth it.

[Erwin]

Ok if you're NOT talking about RT multiplayer but simply multiplayer WEGO, that's my misunderstanding. (BTW: I started CM around 2000 as a confirmed RT tcp player and thought that was the ONLY way to play. But, with experience and as the scenarios got larger and more complex I started to appreciate the subtleties of the game and was sold on PBEM as the only way to play.)

I did take part in or organize a couple of cooperative PBEM games in CM1 (multiplayer teams with a CinC on each side) and they did not turn out well.

All it took is one person falling out, missing a message, having to break to dinner with the kids, go to work, whatever, and the whole thing ground to a halt. I tried to make the CinC responsible for the turns of absent subordinates, but that didn't work either.

Lesson learned: Very few gamers seem to have the discipline something like this requires.

So, yes... theoretically possible, but the kinks really need to be worked out in detail, or it would devolve into utter chaos and frustrated finger pointing.

[noxnoctum]

Well like I said, I've played several (other) quite complex games with more than 2 people and it's worked fine. The advantage of wego tcp-ip over pbem in this regard would mean that everyone sets aside several hours of their time to play a game to completion or to an agreed point. I'm not surprised a PBEM cooperative effort didn't work out all that well since you've now got people on 4 (or more) different schedules. With a lobby you could just join and play till finish. I have played other games with very long lasting multiplayer matches and it worked fine. I think wego tcp-ip is far superior to pbem for something like that just because with PBEM it could drag on forever.

Take for example the civilization series, which is very complex (in a different way to CM granted), and whose multiplayer games often last 3-4 hours (or more occasionally). Yet loads of people play it online, simply because playing a human opponent cannot be beat. These aren't ADD addled kids either, Civilization is not some shoot-em-up twitch game at all! So yep, they're quite a few successful time consuming turn based games our there with strong multiplayer support, whose multiplayer DOES work! (Civilization is actually similar to Combat Mission in that it functions in a "wego-ish" mode in multiplayer so that everyone has something to do)

That said just getting 1vs1 tcp-ip wego with a real lobby in the game would ALREADY be a *gigantic* step forward in my view. Co-play is less important to me. (but would still be a fantastic thing) If we had some sort of integrated ladder that could be kinda cool too.

Hopefully we will have both by the time the Bagration game comes out.

But yes Erwin I absolutely was not talking about RT, only wego . Real time with just 1on1 is already a nightmare IMO with anything more than a platoon or so each. Throw trying to coordinate with a teammate into the "real time mix" and it becomes even worse.

[Erwin]

Wait a minute... tcp/ip is effectively RT with pauses.

What games have you played successfully with multiplayer?

"...everyone sets aside several hours of their time to play... With a lobby you could just join and play till finish." Yeah - if you're a 16-year old or student. Life is rather different when you work and have family responsibilities.

Even tcp-ip relied on fast reactions and manual dexterity. I could cope with it ten years ago cos of the small scenarios. No more... I shudder to think of CM becoming even close to rubbish like "Company of Heroes". And I couldn't even get into the execrable "Achtung Panzer" series.

[noxnoctum]

How is it RT with pauses? What do you mean? It's no more "realtime" than playing wego against the computer. You plan your moves in the planning phase and then sit there and watch the video as the action plays out without any input. How is that real time? Real time moves you're controlling your forces *while* they're following your instructions. That is not what tcp-ip wego is. I have played opponents in tcp-ip wego where we both spent 30 minutes or so on a turn before watching the replay. There's nothing involving "manual dexterity" in that.

WEGO tcp-ip is still totally turn based, but instead of having to use the IGOYOUGO system you are both able to plot your orders at the same time. That was the original brilliance of WEGO since it got around a lot of problems that IGOYOUGO systems necessarily had. Playing WEGO tcp-ip as opposed to WEGO PBEM simply takes out the step of waiting for emails.

There are zero fast reactions involved, or manual dexterity because when you're issuing orders the game is just sitting there, like a chess set. Same as in PBEM, except, the process moves along faster because you both are plotting your orders at the same time. (but not while units are following them) It just takes out the step of having to leave the game, mail your orders to your opponent and then wait to get them back. Instead you both hit "Go" and can watch them unfold.

I'm not sure what the confusion is about. I think you're mixing something up.

Like I said, I mentioned Civilization already which has very long games with a similar wego type style. Though it's more of a realtime/turn based hybrid. Loads of people play that. And Axis and Allies too, which is a board game and not as complex as CM, but still fairly complex and still turn based.

Realtime =

Units follow your orders while you issue them. In singleplayer you can pause whenever you want. This is the same method that games like Starcraft use, though obviously CMBN is still slower paced.

WEGO = Units follow your orders after you hit the "end turn" button then you and your opponent both watch your units battle it out helplessly. This is what CM pioneered.

If you're comparing tcp-ip wego to CoH I don't think you get what I mean. If you were comparing realtime to CoH, then I would agree.

[tdogg]

I do like the Idea of 4 players on a team each taking a company or two in a tcp / ip MP game.

It would make large multi battalion battles more fun.

I also like the idea of an MP lobby to find people looking for games.

[Ranger33]

Games similar in pace and complexity to CM that are doing it right: The Paradox grand strategy games (Hearts of Iron, Europa Universalis, Victoria). Technically they run in "adjustable speed" real time, but I believe "glacial" is the only term to describe the normal speed setting. Anyway, all of these games have a simple in game lobby with a general chat and a list of open games waiting for players. All you have to do is click on one and away we go. I just checked and there are a handful of people on for every single one of them right at this moment (over a dozen for HoI 3 actually). I don't know how many matches are actually played in a day, but the fact is that the option is there, and years after release people are still using it.

If CM had something like this I think you could get a match any time you felt like it. It would be a massive step up for the CM series. ...and yes, I would prefer it over at least one of the things on the "but if you have that you can't have this" list.