Zardoz01

Give the halftrack an Open Up order.

I posted a new thread which has the CMBN pdf link it. The links to the older pdf's will also be changing, so I felt that made more sense than just adding a post to the end of an old topic.
 

Hi. I'm the one who made those pdfs. I lost a hard drive recently and decided to just go ahead and build a new PC, and I now have all 4 WW2 titles running again. But... I lost the images that I was using to make that last QB map pdf for CMBN. I'm now getting back into these games after a bit of a hiatus, though, and this new solid state drive makes a huge difference in map load times. (Most maps and scenarios now load in about 15 seconds, and I've yet to find any that take more than 30....) So I may start over with the CMBN pdf during this upcoming holiday.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/NHC/NewPDFs/USArmy/USArmy, Busting the Bocage, 1944-06-06 to 07-31.PDF

I believe that the error is "only" in the "out of range"-text itself: When your 2 inch mortar is out of HE rounds you will get the misleading "out of range"-message when aiming for firing smoke rounds. But you can still go ahead and fire smoke rounds nevertheless. The mortars can still fire smoke rounds, it is just a text bug.

There's a couple of threads about this so I'll just note that the problem of getting "Out of Range" messages when trying to fire smoke from 2" mortars is still there. See the attached picture .
 

This issue has been reported and fixed according to the post in this thread from BFCElvis. When the patch to the patch, the patchy patch, comes out, this problem should go away.

This is exactly the type of AI behaviour -  experienced in other scenarios -  that stopped me playing BN for past two years, assuming it would be fixed by the patch! 😕

Great subject @Zardoz01, and a very good breakdown Mr. Fluff.
From my point of view, for infantry units :
Hunt is my preferred movement when enemy contact is probable.  When I need them to go to ground immediately on contact and return fire (if possible) = SOP for Movement to Contact Quick - I will alternate this movement in with Hunt when I am scouting (especially with multiple teams), but only use it for very short dashes (one or two action spots) - doing this randomly can add some uncertainty to any opponent that might be watching your movement and it also can speed up the pace of your recon Fast - I use this, as called out by @domfluff for crossing danger areas (streets, open areas, etc.).  SOP = when getting to/across a location/area is more important than immediate return of fire Move - usually I only use this when in a safe area, or when advancing heavy support weapons like HMGs and Mortars that tire quickly - I always try to keep these support weapons behind my main line of infantry until needed   Slow - I rarely use this movement type, mainly because units tire so quickly with it, but it is great for cresting a hill (though I will often use Hunt for that too as the unit is more ready to return fire than on slow) Assault - I almost never use this movement order.  I will do any bounding movement manually, as I don't trust this movement order to do it effectively For armor the same notes as above apply, except I will use Hunt more rarely, mainly because if I am moving armor it is mainly because my main intent is to get it somewhere fast.  Hunt is used when moving into a hull-defilade or a firing position, or when it is prudent, (i.e. the situation is very unclear and dangerous).  So for armor I will almost exclusively use Hunt, Quick, and Fast.  
Bil

Lots of good info and idea on the movement orders which just leaves this question:
Yes, you are correct all three are possible. Typically if your guys are fired upon the enemy will become at least a question mark contact but it absolutely is possible for the enemy to remain totally un-spotted for a time. The further away the shooters are and the fewer of them there are the longer this can last. Snipers situated fair away, for example, can fire and remain a total mystery for the longest.  Normally your men will only return fire once they have a solid contact but I have seen men return fire before that happens. I think that is just a small timing issue. And they will continue to fire briefly after contact has been lost.

Sometimes it's also useful to use it when dismounting ifvs. The squad will debus, one team will hang around the vehicle, and the other will run off to cover, which is far faster than you can do manually (unless you pause accurately enough to manage this at end of turn, but that's piling on even more micro, and some more failure states as well).

Pretty smart.

The basic rule is that speed trades for security - the slower you are, the more likely you are to fire.

Slow - This is going to be a crawl. Being prone, there will be less that the pixeltruppen can see, and it's tiring, but they'll be harder to spot in return.

Hunt - This is tiring, but the pixeltruppen will stop if they receive contact. Ideal for moving in close terrain, worse if moving in the open.

Move - This is the only Move order that will recover fatigue - all others will worsen it. On being shot they will Quick move to the next action spot. If they spot the enemy, they're likely to fire back - Move orders have a decent chance of spotting the enemy, but not as good as being stationary.

Quick - This is a good default move for when contact is made. They'll usually try to complete the move before firing, but they will fire on a target sometimes.

Fast - This is the move to use if you need to prioritise movement. Dashing across a street, running away from indirect fire, etc. They will prioritise movement above shooting.

Assault - This automates bounding overwatch, in a way that's a little hard to anticipate or control. The squad splits as per the "Split Squads" command, one element Fast-moves and the other remains stationary, leap-frogging to the target. It's generally better to do this yourself, but I do make use of it.
 
In terms of automated "react to contact" - if they cannot spot the enemy, and have no contact markers, they won't know where the enemy fire is coming from. From their perspective, if they can't see the enemy, and just know they're being fired at, then what they do will depend on their move orders. Under Hunt orders, this will result in them stopping in place. Move orders will convert to Quick, and Quick and Fast orders will remain the same. If the incoming fire builds up too much, then they may remain pinned in place, or later retreat to nearby cover.

Where they retreat will depend on contact markers as well - the Tac AI is good at finding a spot out of LOS, but not in understanding context. This can lead to a squad suicidally running in the "wrong" direction, since it didn't know that the enemy were there, or that the route they chose to take in panic would take them through the line of fire of something worse.


So  a number of things will happen all at once, when in contact, and it can be difficult to parse precise behaviour. This is why it's important to split squads and provide adequate support - if you're fired on unexpectedly, the targeted element probably won't be able to defend itself effectively, so it'll be up to the other elements or squads to bring the situation under control, giving the first element the time and space to recover.

I'd like to be able to create a little table that told me what I could expect from the various move commands when the move-ee encounters opposition. The general advice I've picked up from this forum, for example, is that scout movement orders should usually end with a short hunt 'n' hide command so that if they get fired on they will stop and go to ground. I've understood that to imply that units will generally try to fulfil 'quick' and 'move' commands. This matches my experience so far - units moving with quick or move always *seem* to want to go to their destination when fired on although they can pause and return fire too unless the short target arc trick is used to prevent them from engaging.
Units that are pinned don't keep moving and units whose morale completely cracks when fired on retreat - I've seen that too.
Also is the thing that matters whether the unit has identified who is shooting at them as opposed to just receiving fire from an unknown location? It is possible AFAIK for my unit to a) receive fire from a completely unspotted enemy b) receive fire from a question mark c) receive fire from a spotted unit. Sounds like this makes a real difference?
Just how smart is the tac AI when fired on? 

Yeah, it's just about fatigue. Fatigue doesn't seem to have much or any game effect aside from moving (counter-intuitively), but it definitely limits how fast you can move, which in practice means "how fast you can get away from the thing killing you", so I often find it more useful to "Move".

Not in all situations, of course - "Quick" or "Fast" is useful for covering short periods of open ground, like streets. "Slow" is great for sneaking up, or for cresting hills. "Hunt" is mandatory for expected contact in close terrain, e.g., in woods.
They are lower to the ground, that will cause  issues. CM works on pre-calculated elevation levels to determine LOS with the Target tool (which is why it works instantaneously - there's a pre-calculated LOS grid that's drawn when the map is created), and "crawling" is one level below standing. US HMGs are probably considered "prone". That won't necessarily mean that the gunners can't see - Line of Fire calculation are done from the actual model. That's why a squad might sometimes have no Target line available, but some or all of the squad might still be firing at the target.
True, but I think it's a little more subtle than that - Moving troops will Quick or Fast move to the next spot if they come under fire, and don't have any contact markers - i.e., "something shot at us, but we don't know who, where or what". Default behaviour then is to follow previous orders, which seems pretty plausible to me.

If the Move commands are short, and especially into cover, then it's not normally a death trap. Obviously, as above, there are scenarios were Hunt, Quick or whatever are more appropriate, but I do think it's a useful default, even along routes which are not cleared.

That's actually not what I've found in general. Indirect fire is definitely the better option, but it's not actually mandatory.

Out of curiosity last night, I made up a version of Bil's scenario, replacing the HQ team with a proper MG42 HMG, on a tripod mount, with decent siting, in cover and in foxholes.

Clearly that scenario was just made significantly harder, but it was far from impossible - I'd typically take a total of two casualties, but the same principle of suppression and fire and movement worked fine. There was a little more variance - there was one run where the squad had no idea where incoming fire was coming from, so they milled around in a blind panic instead - but the most common result was one or sometimes two losses. This is a lot more than the zero or sometimes one that the base scenario typically offered.

Now, that position is not 100% in the HMGs favour. They're out of C2, have no flank security, and they're at much closer ranges than the HMG could operate (i.e., they are within decent rifle distance), but I think the point holds that a single rifle squad is more than capable of dealing with a lone HMG position, and maintaining combat effectiveness to continue with the mission (there's a fair amount of time pressure in that scenario, since you need to get on with the main task). Tempted to make a video of this.
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You're quite right about the German squads being more flexible though - they do suffer for the extra ammunition the pixeltruppen carry, but a GPMG is a powerful thing. Whether volume of fire or accuracy is more important for suppression is an open question though - certainly a Commonwealth rifle squad have the tools to put out more accurate fire than a German one, who blow them away on volume. Honestly I think it might be something of a wash - if the MG gunner is cowering, that's the vast majority of the squad's firepower suppressed in one go, which is certainly not the case for a US squad.

Bil is (obviously) accurate that the correct attack procedure for a US Rifle squad in this scenario would be Fire and Movement.
The reasoning behind that is that the US squad lacks an effective LMG, so the burden of suppression falls to the rifles instead. Fortunately, those rifles are M1 Garands...

That means that the situation will be that the lead squad will be cowering or panicking, without spotting markers or other information. The other two teams will be area-firing on the known HMG position, giving the lead team the chance to recover, and join in the suppression.

Then, a team will dash forwards a few action spots, ideally into cover, with a Fast order, whilst the other two teams are keeping up the volume of fire. This Fast order should have a Target order on the end of it, so that the advancing team can add to the fire when they finish moving. When this team is sited, another team will move forwards. Small arms are more effective the closer you get, so the end result is a mounting volume of fire on the target, ending when a team is about 30m away, and can start throwing grenades to clear out the target.

Once you've cleared the target, you usually want to attack *through* the location, which will allow you to provide some security, or to pick up any stragglers that have retreated from the spot, and might have something nasty like grenades or an smg.

If this were a Commonwealth squad, you'd divide instead into a base of fire, and a manoeuvre element. The base of fire would be a three man Bren team, usually supplemented by the platoon leader's two inch mortar. This LMG team would keep up the fire continuously until the assault element arrives at the target.

Symmetric fireteams (Panzergrenadiers, Stg.44 or SMG squads) can do either, situation depending. Each move involves risk, so a frontal "fire and movement" assault can accept more risk than the "fire and manoeuvre" of a static firing element and a flanking team.

Thanks everybody. I'm glad Bil's practice scenarios have turned up again! I've searched cyberspace a couple of times in the past looking for them. I'll go off and play them through and see what's what. There's enough guidance from @domfluff's post  and @Bil Hardenberger 's blog post to practice with.
This all arose from me jumping back into CM without having the basics right. As we all know this is a game where only correct tactics are likely to work.
 
 
 

Thanks everybody. I'm glad Bil's practice scenarios have turned up again! I've searched cyberspace a couple of times in the past looking for them. I'll go off and play them through and see what's what. There's enough guidance from @domfluff's post  and @Bil Hardenberger 's blog post to practice with.
This all arose from me jumping back into CM without having the basics right. As we all know this is a game where only correct tactics are likely to work.
 
 
 

Thanks to @IanL , the links to these scenarios on my blog have been updated.  For convenience the links are also below:
Briefing:  Infantry Squad Attack & Scenario File
Briefing:  Tank Section Attack & Scenario File

@Zardoz01, I also have another blog post that might be of help to you... it actually demonstrates a squad attack on an HMG
Let us know how you get on.

The inevitable comment will be about truly worst-case scenarios - what to do when your squad is under fire from multiple HMGs, pinned down in the open and generally having a miserable day.

To quote Prachett's General Tacticus - 

"How to Ensure against Defeat when Out-numbered, Out-weaponed and Out-positioned"
"Don't have a battle"

You need to put a lot of work into avoiding these situations before you get into them, and have a plan for extricating yourself once you are. Sometimes, it all just goes wrong. Some combination of smoke and running away might help, but if you're in a no-win situation, by definition you'll have limited available options.

Your platoon or company MGs aren't going to be much use deploying under fire. You can do it, but it's not ideal.
 
MGs serve a number of purposes (and there's a lot of subtlety in their use), but one obvious one is that they can move to hold ground that a rifle squad has recently taken, freeing up the squad for a future task. Rifle platoons are designed for manoeuvre.

Bil used to have a good tactical exercise here, with a Squad Attack:
http://battledrill.blogspot.com/2013/09/infantry-tactical-problem-001-squad.html

This file (and the armour one) is no longer available - if anyone has a copy, I'd appreciate it - but it involves a squad on the march and allows you to practice all of this quite effectively.

A rifle squad should, in theory, be able to take down a single HMG. Obviously circumstances may make this more difficult.

How it would work in theory:

The squad is on patrol to whatever location when contact is made. You've been following correct movement procedures, so the squad is split into three sections, travelling in line. The forward elements are scouting, possibly as a literal two-man scout team, but equally perhaps just the 3/4 man team you get with a basic "Split Squad".

This scout element will be moving from cover to cover (and possibly using Move, to allow them to sprint whenever they need to), so contact will either be made in cover, or on the way to cover. How this happens depends on how cautious you need to be, and how fast you need to be - trade-offs are speed and risk.

The trailing elements have line of sight to this scout team (this is why Iron mode is useful) at all times - this determines your possible spacing, since you'll be closer in close terrain.


MG fire rings out, and your scout team goes to ground (or dashes to cover). You'll be unlucky to lose anyone on the first burst, but obviously that's the risk you take. your scout team may not be in a position to see where the enemy is firing from, but your trailing teams are close enough that they have a good chance to do so.

Priority number one is to go to ground, move into nearby cover (very nearby - you don't want to be moving a lot here), and returning fire. Your goal in the first minute or so is to work out what just happened - what's firing at you, where they are, and how many of them are there. The second goal in this time is for the squad leader to start calling down indirect fire from any platoon assets available - this mission can be cancelled, but if the firefight goes long then you'll need the extra firepower.

Situation now is that you have a cowering and possibly injured scout team, and two trail elements in covered positions, firing at the source of the incoming fire.

You now need to work out if you need to break contact. If you are overmatched in firepower, and the HMG is in a well sited position, covering open ground, then you're screwed (and you've probably made a mistake to get into that situation) - your priority then is to withdraw. You use smoke grenades and possibly call on any platoon mortars to provide some cover as you extricate yourself from a bad situation.

If not, then you have to determine whether you can manoeuvre onto the target. If there's a covered route towards the target, then you can plan for an assault.

The rest of the squad divides itself into a base of fire and an assault element. The base of fire will contain the squad automatic weapons and rifle grenades, and the assault element will contain any SMG and most of the grenades. Splitting by "Assault team" can do this, but the basic "Split Squads" command will do a good enough job here.

The base of fire Targets the enemy contact marker by area fire - this allows them to open up and they will pour as much fire as they can onto the target. The lead element will also target the enemy, and should recover from their suppression fairly quickly, assuming they're still in contact with their friends. 

If this element or two can suppress the enemy - i.e., the fire is mostly going one way - then the assault element can move along the covered route and attack the target (move to within 30m, hunt in the last few spots, throw grenades speculatively or at known targets). Smoke grenades (or smoke mortar rounds) may help the move onto the target, since you're unlikely to have a perfectly covered approach all the way in.

If this element cannot suppress the enemy, then the whole squad sits in their covered positions and fires. It's then the responsibility of the Platoon leader to engage the target with another squad or two to try to remove the threat.
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So the whole thing is a series of escalating if-then decisions, where you're preparing to minimise the risk and you're engaging with the smallest amount of force that you can afford. You're trying to manage the engagement the whole time, and stay in control.

Excellent. Found them all. Cheers.