panzersaurkrautwerfer

Lyrics:     Field Marshal, the advance will be in the defensive fire, the enemy has long been on the latest types of tanks. Only one thing can help us again power to winners, we need finally companies with new heavy tigers. Let the cat go ...    In Kursk first major attack in hawsers, enemy tanks have been shot at three thousand feet. Eight-eight cannons firing highly accelerated grenades, their rumbling startled many enemy tank crew.    Let go of the cat ... the ruler of the battle field, the kings of the battle. Let go of the cats ... eighty-eight millimeter superior firepower. Let go of the cat ... The enemy crews nightmare and her sheer terror. Let the cat go ... Let the cat go ... Let the cat go ...    Also superior in Normandy the opponent, no matter how strong the enemy Association, no raises at him like. Are rarely voluntarily started fighting with him and even small Tiger crews bypassed rather widely.    Let go of the cat ... the ruler of the battle field, the kings of the battle. Let go of the cats ... eighty-eight millimeter superior firepower. Let go of the cat ... The enemy crews nightmare and her sheer terror. Let the cat go ... Let the cat go ... Let the cat go ...    A handful of soldiers - enemy attacks - are totally inferior, but they grin contemptuously, rather than surrender without a fight. The attacker amaze why the men laugh, one hears a sudden squeak chains, splintering wood, trees crashing! And out of the undergrowth breaks - the sight you will never forget, a battle group of tigers with aufgesessner infantry!    Let go of the cat ... the ruler of the battle field, the kings of the battle. Let go of the cats ... eighty-eight millimeter superior firepower. Let go of the cat ... The enemy crews nightmare and her sheer terror. Let the cat go ... Let the cat go ... Let the cat go ...    Lest by the ratio of its launch numbers, read to, in what desperation they threw the enemy. Read the names of those who were aces on them, healing Wittmann, Carius and the others ... Let the cat go ... Let the cat go ... Let the cat go ... Let the cat go ...    Iron rusts in the steppe, in the earth are bones of those who faithful to the end never broke their oath. Still, the forest, silent pipes, nothing testifies to what once happened in silence mourns only the child who never saw his father.

Oh I disagree.  Steve is not saying that BFC's budget is comparable - that would be a poor comparison.  He is pointing out that just deciding what you want to do and imaging it as possible may not mesh with the reality of the current capabilities of an organization, equipment, budget and / or time line.  Any project that might be undertaken by an organization needs to match with in those parameters.  The size of the budget or the organization only changes how many and how big those projects are but it does not change the reality that projects need to be prioritized.  That prioritization needs to take into account how long it would take with the current staff and equipment and how much it would cost to add staff or equipment etc.  Or put other projects on hold. etc. etc.  The Russian or US defence department or their contractors are not immune to the realities of project management and budgeting.

You're funny.  Perhaps you should open a comedy club?  Have you actually seen the sort of crap people pay to see?

There will always be an audience that wants to see crispy critters, or what organs look like falling out of someone.  I see no reason to make it easy to feed the orgrish crowd, nor is it relevant to the debate.  Regardless of pictures of the dead, your original point is just as wrong, there's no similarity between not showing the dead, and denying that they happened.

Which is a dignity denied to the Russian war dead from Ukraine.  You're missing the point.  Showing photos of the dead at a solem occasion is questionable, and does nothing to remove the reality of how/where they died.  Putin just reserved the right to deny any information at all about the death of Russian servicemen, which you are apparently okay with because CNN used to not be allowed to film an event designed to be a respectful, quiet ceremony.
 
So tell me instead of trying to run down this rabbit hole of non-comprehension.  Is it okay to lie about the fates of soldiers or being at war at all?

The notification process, and return of human remains is a super-solemn process, even for MIA partial remains recovered decades later.  Eventually some legislator fought to allow cameras to cover the return of remains from Iraq/Afghanistan....but it was very much restricted to ensure someone wasn't getting super artistic shuts by standing on a coffin or something.  As Los pointed out, the fact said servicemen were dead, and the nature of their dead was never concealed, just the pictures of the actual dead.  
 
So in that regard, the casualties were known, existed, broadcast (once the family had been notified, and as I pointed out, even notified at great cost and expense).
 
 
Yeah but the key part of "plausible" is that it's believable.  You really overestimate how often western SOF does something that "never happened" usually the key is US SOF is "somewhere" in country, but the actual trigger units are usually local forces that have been trained by the US.  Because THIS provides enough plausibility that US forces were never there, it just happened that some not Taliban friendly tribesmen happened to attack a rival tribe the day that a Taliban HVT was visiting said rival tribe, and the fact a US drone strike blotted out the security element five minutes before the raid started all just happened to occur.
 
Russia has mounted a low order invasion of the Ukraine with significant SOF, regular forces, armor, and artillery and SAMs fired from Russian soil.  There's no plausible involved, no deniability, and pretending the various dead Russian servicemen simply keeled over in the mess hall from bad borscht is simply insulting to everyone's intelligence.  The only deniability is Putin using the toddler defense of repeating "Nuh-uh!" at various volumes on a loop when confronted about Russians in the Ukraine.
 
 
Are you worse served on crime reporting by not getting full page glossy photos of the victims?  Does not getting to see the crispy remains of airplane crash victims make you less aware of the plane crash?  It's simple human respect to give dead folks, and their families some privacy.  Soldier's are not some how less human and less deserving of that respect.  The facts of their deaths, and often the details of their deaths are publicly available and always have been.  This is the stuff Putin is withholding and where the issue arises, and is the stuff that's relevant to the discussion on if it's "worth it"

The radio code word we used at the time was "River City."  We didn't lose many folks, but you'd usually have 10-30 seconds to finish what you were doing before the call centers, internet, and even the official DoD connections to the "real" internet got shut down (the military intranet stuff kept going, but it's not like you got on gmail with that).  Our Artillery Battalion had a mascal and one of the dudes who died was first generation immigrant from Guatemala.  We did not have normal contact with our families until they'd found the dude's family in his home country so a real human in a US Army uniform would tell them their son was dead and we are so sorry.
 
Which is why this Putin mess pisses me off so much.  Oh.  Your son is dead.  SORRY it didn't happen really but he's just as dead.  HEY.  There's your kid on youtube getting probed by Ukrainians.  HE SHOULDN'T HAVE GONE ON VACATION!
 
It's like my god, I knew if I died Baghdad wasn't going to know peace until my body was brought back, and some Captain and a Chaplain were going to have to tell my family that I died serving this country I love.  Or if I went missing my country was going to do literally everything it could do to get me back or ensure I was really dead before it gave up trying to get me back (even if I was a crapbird like Bergdalh).  
 
Russia?  Pffft.  Their soldiers are cheaply sold for questionable goods, and are quickly forgotten when they're broken.  Someone's son is worth more than that, but it's readily apparent Putin's concern for that son, and for Russia's children's future only carries as far as ensuring his corrupt buddies have places to build casinos, and a tinny hollow version of "russian glory."  Whore's makeup on a corpse if you will.  

It's still a true statement, sneering Russian imperialism aside.  Until Russia invaded the Ukraine, the amount of "give a damn"  of what happens in Russia fell somewhere below someone else's third favorite sports team, or what star trek rerun was on tonight.  Ukraine ranked somewhere around the common person's concern for knowing the proper scientific name for the spider on the wall.  I'm pretty sure Russia could set up camps to contain the homosexual menace and we'd only eyeroll and go back to reality TV shows.  
 
It's just once the boots of Russian troops trod on countries that are not actually Russian, and then the russian government pretends we're all as stupid as you think we are to believe the dump truck of lies that followed that invasion, that we get a little more interested.  

Look into the suicide numbers.  You'll find they're up for soldiers...but they're not up for guys who've deployed.  It matches a wider increase in suicides for the 16-22 population.  
 
Which is sort of why the suicide prevention focus in the army went away from "YOU SURVIVE IRAQ AND NOW LIVE THROUGH THIS FOR AMERICA!" or "warrior/think spartan*" focused resilience because it turned out, the combat vets weren't the risk group.  It's the 18-20 year group offing themselves because of 18-20 something age group problems.  
 
*Seriously.  By month five or six, you've got a coping mechanism.  You don't need to be told you're ultramaxstrongwarrior.  My whole plan for surviving Iraq was:
 
1. Video games.  Once you're done for the day, change into your PTs, sit down for an hour or two and play xbox.
2. Care packages.  I'd order stuff like games and books, and then keep track of how much longer I had until they showed up, as it's easier to count down the 9-14 days it took from ordering something on Amazon to get to me, than count down the remaining 240 days of deployment.
3. I had a remote controlled Abrams and Sherman tank that shot airsoft pellets.  I'd take those out behind my living area, lay out some styrofoam cups, then drive the tank around drilling those cups.  
 
For some folks it was porn, working out, whatever, but finding something to do that wasn't Iraq focused was pretty key.  
 
Either way off topic, but it made sitting in the powerpoint briefing on being max emotional strong through warrior centric focus battle meditation or whatever crap the army was trying to genuinely help us in a hamfisted way with bothersome.

Which is a dignity denied to the Russian war dead from Ukraine.  You're missing the point.  Showing photos of the dead at a solem occasion is questionable, and does nothing to remove the reality of how/where they died.  Putin just reserved the right to deny any information at all about the death of Russian servicemen, which you are apparently okay with because CNN used to not be allowed to film an event designed to be a respectful, quiet ceremony.
 
So tell me instead of trying to run down this rabbit hole of non-comprehension.  Is it okay to lie about the fates of soldiers or being at war at all?

Which is a dignity denied to the Russian war dead from Ukraine.  You're missing the point.  Showing photos of the dead at a solem occasion is questionable, and does nothing to remove the reality of how/where they died.  Putin just reserved the right to deny any information at all about the death of Russian servicemen, which you are apparently okay with because CNN used to not be allowed to film an event designed to be a respectful, quiet ceremony.
 
So tell me instead of trying to run down this rabbit hole of non-comprehension.  Is it okay to lie about the fates of soldiers or being at war at all?

The radio code word we used at the time was "River City."  We didn't lose many folks, but you'd usually have 10-30 seconds to finish what you were doing before the call centers, internet, and even the official DoD connections to the "real" internet got shut down (the military intranet stuff kept going, but it's not like you got on gmail with that).  Our Artillery Battalion had a mascal and one of the dudes who died was first generation immigrant from Guatemala.  We did not have normal contact with our families until they'd found the dude's family in his home country so a real human in a US Army uniform would tell them their son was dead and we are so sorry.
 
Which is why this Putin mess pisses me off so much.  Oh.  Your son is dead.  SORRY it didn't happen really but he's just as dead.  HEY.  There's your kid on youtube getting probed by Ukrainians.  HE SHOULDN'T HAVE GONE ON VACATION!
 
It's like my god, I knew if I died Baghdad wasn't going to know peace until my body was brought back, and some Captain and a Chaplain were going to have to tell my family that I died serving this country I love.  Or if I went missing my country was going to do literally everything it could do to get me back or ensure I was really dead before it gave up trying to get me back (even if I was a crapbird like Bergdalh).  
 
Russia?  Pffft.  Their soldiers are cheaply sold for questionable goods, and are quickly forgotten when they're broken.  Someone's son is worth more than that, but it's readily apparent Putin's concern for that son, and for Russia's children's future only carries as far as ensuring his corrupt buddies have places to build casinos, and a tinny hollow version of "russian glory."  Whore's makeup on a corpse if you will.  

The radio code word we used at the time was "River City."  We didn't lose many folks, but you'd usually have 10-30 seconds to finish what you were doing before the call centers, internet, and even the official DoD connections to the "real" internet got shut down (the military intranet stuff kept going, but it's not like you got on gmail with that).  Our Artillery Battalion had a mascal and one of the dudes who died was first generation immigrant from Guatemala.  We did not have normal contact with our families until they'd found the dude's family in his home country so a real human in a US Army uniform would tell them their son was dead and we are so sorry.
 
Which is why this Putin mess pisses me off so much.  Oh.  Your son is dead.  SORRY it didn't happen really but he's just as dead.  HEY.  There's your kid on youtube getting probed by Ukrainians.  HE SHOULDN'T HAVE GONE ON VACATION!
 
It's like my god, I knew if I died Baghdad wasn't going to know peace until my body was brought back, and some Captain and a Chaplain were going to have to tell my family that I died serving this country I love.  Or if I went missing my country was going to do literally everything it could do to get me back or ensure I was really dead before it gave up trying to get me back (even if I was a crapbird like Bergdalh).  
 
Russia?  Pffft.  Their soldiers are cheaply sold for questionable goods, and are quickly forgotten when they're broken.  Someone's son is worth more than that, but it's readily apparent Putin's concern for that son, and for Russia's children's future only carries as far as ensuring his corrupt buddies have places to build casinos, and a tinny hollow version of "russian glory."  Whore's makeup on a corpse if you will.  

The radio code word we used at the time was "River City."  We didn't lose many folks, but you'd usually have 10-30 seconds to finish what you were doing before the call centers, internet, and even the official DoD connections to the "real" internet got shut down (the military intranet stuff kept going, but it's not like you got on gmail with that).  Our Artillery Battalion had a mascal and one of the dudes who died was first generation immigrant from Guatemala.  We did not have normal contact with our families until they'd found the dude's family in his home country so a real human in a US Army uniform would tell them their son was dead and we are so sorry.
 
Which is why this Putin mess pisses me off so much.  Oh.  Your son is dead.  SORRY it didn't happen really but he's just as dead.  HEY.  There's your kid on youtube getting probed by Ukrainians.  HE SHOULDN'T HAVE GONE ON VACATION!
 
It's like my god, I knew if I died Baghdad wasn't going to know peace until my body was brought back, and some Captain and a Chaplain were going to have to tell my family that I died serving this country I love.  Or if I went missing my country was going to do literally everything it could do to get me back or ensure I was really dead before it gave up trying to get me back (even if I was a crapbird like Bergdalh).  
 
Russia?  Pffft.  Their soldiers are cheaply sold for questionable goods, and are quickly forgotten when they're broken.  Someone's son is worth more than that, but it's readily apparent Putin's concern for that son, and for Russia's children's future only carries as far as ensuring his corrupt buddies have places to build casinos, and a tinny hollow version of "russian glory."  Whore's makeup on a corpse if you will.  

ITS YOUR FAULT I HAVE TO INVADE YOU AND TAKE PARTS OF YOUR COUNTRY AND ANNEX THEM TO MINE.  BUT I AM NOT AT WAR WITH YOU. I AM PEACEFUL.  PLEASE SURRENDER TO THOSE GUYS THAT ARE TOTALLY NOT MY TROOPS, JUST HAVE MY GUNS. 
 
While the "World without America" is an alarmist self important book designed to make yankee imperialists feel good about themselves, a "World without Russia" book would rather be a utopian novel in which Eastern Europe actually gets to thrive, and various tin pot dictators find themselves out of friends, time, and Russian guns.

The radio code word we used at the time was "River City."  We didn't lose many folks, but you'd usually have 10-30 seconds to finish what you were doing before the call centers, internet, and even the official DoD connections to the "real" internet got shut down (the military intranet stuff kept going, but it's not like you got on gmail with that).  Our Artillery Battalion had a mascal and one of the dudes who died was first generation immigrant from Guatemala.  We did not have normal contact with our families until they'd found the dude's family in his home country so a real human in a US Army uniform would tell them their son was dead and we are so sorry.
 
Which is why this Putin mess pisses me off so much.  Oh.  Your son is dead.  SORRY it didn't happen really but he's just as dead.  HEY.  There's your kid on youtube getting probed by Ukrainians.  HE SHOULDN'T HAVE GONE ON VACATION!
 
It's like my god, I knew if I died Baghdad wasn't going to know peace until my body was brought back, and some Captain and a Chaplain were going to have to tell my family that I died serving this country I love.  Or if I went missing my country was going to do literally everything it could do to get me back or ensure I was really dead before it gave up trying to get me back (even if I was a crapbird like Bergdalh).  
 
Russia?  Pffft.  Their soldiers are cheaply sold for questionable goods, and are quickly forgotten when they're broken.  Someone's son is worth more than that, but it's readily apparent Putin's concern for that son, and for Russia's children's future only carries as far as ensuring his corrupt buddies have places to build casinos, and a tinny hollow version of "russian glory."  Whore's makeup on a corpse if you will.  

The radio code word we used at the time was "River City."  We didn't lose many folks, but you'd usually have 10-30 seconds to finish what you were doing before the call centers, internet, and even the official DoD connections to the "real" internet got shut down (the military intranet stuff kept going, but it's not like you got on gmail with that).  Our Artillery Battalion had a mascal and one of the dudes who died was first generation immigrant from Guatemala.  We did not have normal contact with our families until they'd found the dude's family in his home country so a real human in a US Army uniform would tell them their son was dead and we are so sorry.
 
Which is why this Putin mess pisses me off so much.  Oh.  Your son is dead.  SORRY it didn't happen really but he's just as dead.  HEY.  There's your kid on youtube getting probed by Ukrainians.  HE SHOULDN'T HAVE GONE ON VACATION!
 
It's like my god, I knew if I died Baghdad wasn't going to know peace until my body was brought back, and some Captain and a Chaplain were going to have to tell my family that I died serving this country I love.  Or if I went missing my country was going to do literally everything it could do to get me back or ensure I was really dead before it gave up trying to get me back (even if I was a crapbird like Bergdalh).  
 
Russia?  Pffft.  Their soldiers are cheaply sold for questionable goods, and are quickly forgotten when they're broken.  Someone's son is worth more than that, but it's readily apparent Putin's concern for that son, and for Russia's children's future only carries as far as ensuring his corrupt buddies have places to build casinos, and a tinny hollow version of "russian glory."  Whore's makeup on a corpse if you will.  

The great tragedy of Eastern Europe is having Russians for neighbors. 

Sublime has it spot on.  If I bought it I didn't want CNN sitting there like vultures filming my corpse in a box, so it can be spliced into someone's youtube channel etc, etc, etc.
 
Which is 100% NOT what Russia is doing.  Russia is simply making it so there's no war, and raking the bodies of its soldiers under the rug.  Which really is pretty much the status quo for Russian soldiers from Czar to Commissar and beyond.  
 
Using them phrases you don't understand.  If you've got dead SOF guys, you're past that point.  Plausible deniability is contingent on it being plausible.  If suddenly you have a few dozen dead SOF guys, a neighbor that's reporting Russian troops, it's over man.  You need a lot more cut-outs, a lot less dead people, less ones captured and displayed on TV, and just honestly repeating you are not doing it over and over again, and then doing the dead a disservice by magicking them away to a "this guy died!  Somehow" realm is disgraceful, and insulting to the world at large's intelligence.
 
Filming bodies?  Graphic photos of the deceased?  Bad mojo.  Shouldn't be done out of respect (although maybe seeing their cold dead sons would put some reality into this nationalistic chest slapping exercise the Russians are up to).  But the public has a right to know how the government is spending blood and treasure.
 
Putin's actions simply show he views the Russian soldier as another tool to use and throw away once he's done with it.  

ITS YOUR FAULT I HAVE TO INVADE YOU AND TAKE PARTS OF YOUR COUNTRY AND ANNEX THEM TO MINE.  BUT I AM NOT AT WAR WITH YOU. I AM PEACEFUL.  PLEASE SURRENDER TO THOSE GUYS THAT ARE TOTALLY NOT MY TROOPS, JUST HAVE MY GUNS. 
 
While the "World without America" is an alarmist self important book designed to make yankee imperialists feel good about themselves, a "World without Russia" book would rather be a utopian novel in which Eastern Europe actually gets to thrive, and various tin pot dictators find themselves out of friends, time, and Russian guns.

Actually if anything his argument is equally valid for the Poles redressing the issue of lands stolen from them by the Soviet Union, a return of Konigsberg to Germany and someone annexing Chechnya.  The corrupt Russian state simply shouldn't be allowed to hold onto those things someone else could put to much better use, so it's the moral imperative unmarked military personnel and purchased street thugs come solve that!

ITS YOUR FAULT I HAVE TO INVADE YOU AND TAKE PARTS OF YOUR COUNTRY AND ANNEX THEM TO MINE.  BUT I AM NOT AT WAR WITH YOU. I AM PEACEFUL.  PLEASE SURRENDER TO THOSE GUYS THAT ARE TOTALLY NOT MY TROOPS, JUST HAVE MY GUNS. 
 
While the "World without America" is an alarmist self important book designed to make yankee imperialists feel good about themselves, a "World without Russia" book would rather be a utopian novel in which Eastern Europe actually gets to thrive, and various tin pot dictators find themselves out of friends, time, and Russian guns.

The great tragedy of Eastern Europe is having Russians for neighbors. 

Sublime has it spot on.  If I bought it I didn't want CNN sitting there like vultures filming my corpse in a box, so it can be spliced into someone's youtube channel etc, etc, etc.
 
Which is 100% NOT what Russia is doing.  Russia is simply making it so there's no war, and raking the bodies of its soldiers under the rug.  Which really is pretty much the status quo for Russian soldiers from Czar to Commissar and beyond.  
 
Using them phrases you don't understand.  If you've got dead SOF guys, you're past that point.  Plausible deniability is contingent on it being plausible.  If suddenly you have a few dozen dead SOF guys, a neighbor that's reporting Russian troops, it's over man.  You need a lot more cut-outs, a lot less dead people, less ones captured and displayed on TV, and just honestly repeating you are not doing it over and over again, and then doing the dead a disservice by magicking them away to a "this guy died!  Somehow" realm is disgraceful, and insulting to the world at large's intelligence.
 
Filming bodies?  Graphic photos of the deceased?  Bad mojo.  Shouldn't be done out of respect (although maybe seeing their cold dead sons would put some reality into this nationalistic chest slapping exercise the Russians are up to).  But the public has a right to know how the government is spending blood and treasure.
 
Putin's actions simply show he views the Russian soldier as another tool to use and throw away once he's done with it.  

Well I agree with the very last line anyway, but none of the premise.  Minsk will fail because Russia is stuck with no options.  This is a Russian instigated war and it won't end till Russia gets it's bloody hands off Ukraine.  You can criticize the Ukrainian gov't all you want and some of it might even be true, but that is all just a distraction.  We know who started the war, we know who keeps it going.  Get your gov't the hell out of their country and then maybe someone might actually care about your opinion of their gov't.

But whatever nonsense contained within is simply something he's found vs created, and this ALSO turns into a great chance to discuss the T-34/85 as a tank vs Comrade Tank of Fascist Destruction.  
 
Re: Korea
 
Here's what Zaloga says, which is from the official post conflict BDA on NKPA tank losses.  It's based entirely on recovered hulls which is important given some of the cray-cray USAF claims of destroying several hundred tanks.  The NKPA also lacked meaningful recovery assets, so generally if something was "killed" it wasn't going anywhere.  All claims are T-34/85s to the best of my understanding (the only other NKPA armor being the SU-76).  Additionally it's on target analysis vs crew claims:
 
Total Kills by tanks: 89+8 Damaged (but recovered by UN forces)
   M24: 1
   M26: 29+3
   M4A3E8: 41+4
   M46: 18+1
 
Artillery: 20+8
Bazooka (both M20 and M9): 11+11
Recoilless rifle: 9+4
Land Mines: 1
Grenades: 3
Aircraft: 27+2
Naval Gunfire: 12
"Unconfirmed" 63
 
Unconfirmed includes anything that was difficult to identify beyond reasonable measures.  This includes likely napalm kills, vehicles that catastrophically blew up to the degree where finding a clear cause was simply impractical, but enough pieces could be found to rule out it being a collection of T-34 parts vs a full wreck.
 
From that even if all unconfirmed kills were from aviation, US armor was still the most lethal thing on the battlefield vs the T-34/85.  The M4A3E8 did quite well, but this likely stems from it being more common.  
 
For the Pusan fighting the M26 and M46s were the preferred tanks given the remaining threat from NKPA T-34s.  Pusan also is much more friendly to tank operations.  as pointed out, later fighting as the war moved north increasingly fell on the Sherman.  The Centurions did quite well with infantry support, but did not encounter T-34s to the best of my recollection (I seem to remember the only commonwealth tank kill to be knocking out a Cromwell that had been captured by the PLA).  The larger M20 Bazooka was not quite so hastily created having roots going back to 1944, but the end of the war and the silliness of the post war Nuclear focus meant it remained fairly uncommon, and the units that deployed to Korea from Japan lacked many of their MTOE heavy weapons either way.