The Steppenwulf

As stated your facts were incorrect; you drew reference to the DEMO with regard to the WINDOW, and BF statement was explicitly in reference to the GAME. That undermined your position entirely. If you cannot see that then it's impossible to reason with you.

As previously stated over and over again (some people do seem to have grasped this) it isn't about a specific date, it's simply about good customer relations to provide an update when it becomes clear that the window is going to have to shift. If I hadn't paid approx £100 then maybe I wouldn't care, but if the window has moved to Christmas I have a right to know that this the case, request a refund and use the money on family xmas gifts instead.
 You seem to to jump from one wild assertion to another - all without any factual basis.  Unless you've been following my reading and posting on these forums you know nothing about me! And if you had, you'd know that your assertions are wrong!
Again this is blurring the truth to suit your assertions. In fact BF do give updates and they do offer windows for game release. I could trawl through the forums and offer you many, many examples of this. However, and to reiterate yet again, this issue is simply about communications. Nonetheless Steve, himself in May (again I've already posted a link to this in an earlier post in this very thread), apologised for not providing a more recent update. If you are right and BF think that updates are either not important, counter productive, or adverse to BF's business practice, then please explain why he provided a comprehensive update on;

1) SF2, 
2) the situation with the patches,
3) Black Sea,
4) Red Thunder, and, 
5) The new website.

AND MOREOVER, he apologised for not having done this much sooner!

Your argument is weak because it is factually incorrect. The full game release window is end of Sept not the demo:
https://www.battlefront.com/

Secondly if a customer has paid for something they have a right to know when to reasonably expect to receive the product. If BF can't make the window, that's fine (we understand) but update us with the revised window. E.g. is it weeks or months, or next summer? (EDIT: And we are not even onto the issue re overdue patch releases)

Expecting the Developer to offer a simple update is not unreasonable when the customer has parted with cash for a product not yet received!

But we are going over old ground already established in this thread....

The only reason this thread is continuing is because of weak retorts from those trying to defend BF,  that then bring posters back to reiterate the same inescapable truths about this whole matter. 

Your argument is weak because it is factually incorrect. The full game release window is end of Sept not the demo:
https://www.battlefront.com/

Secondly if a customer has paid for something they have a right to know when to reasonably expect to receive the product. If BF can't make the window, that's fine (we understand) but update us with the revised window. E.g. is it weeks or months, or next summer? (EDIT: And we are not even onto the issue re overdue patch releases)

Expecting the Developer to offer a simple update is not unreasonable when the customer has parted with cash for a product not yet received!

But we are going over old ground already established in this thread....

The only reason this thread is continuing is because of weak retorts from those trying to defend BF,  that then bring posters back to reiterate the same inescapable truths about this whole matter. 

Your argument is weak because it is factually incorrect. The full game release window is end of Sept not the demo:
https://www.battlefront.com/

Secondly if a customer has paid for something they have a right to know when to reasonably expect to receive the product. If BF can't make the window, that's fine (we understand) but update us with the revised window. E.g. is it weeks or months, or next summer? (EDIT: And we are not even onto the issue re overdue patch releases)

Expecting the Developer to offer a simple update is not unreasonable when the customer has parted with cash for a product not yet received!

But we are going over old ground already established in this thread....

The only reason this thread is continuing is because of weak retorts from those trying to defend BF,  that then bring posters back to reiterate the same inescapable truths about this whole matter. 

Really when customers paid $120 in advance they have no right to be notified or updated when they might actually receive the product?? You really should rethink that!!

To be honest it's getting to the point where I'm thinking that I ought to request a refund because I could spend the money on something else that I can enjoy right now, not in 6 months time. I don't think that's an unreasonable regret on the part of the customer either!

There have been a lot of good points made in this thread. 
They're even better when they're kept at a civil level and the ad hominem vitriol is left out.
A game which causes emotional responses is a pretty good game, in my opinion. (Someone mentioned Bejeweled. Yeah, it pisses me off that my wife kicks my ass on that game.)
By definition, beta testers are fans of the game. We are tied to a non-disclosure agreement. That causes stress. I'd like to tell you more, but all I can do is play Bejeweled to vent...and that's not going as well as I'd like.
 

Some paraphrasing.
 
"I'm sorry you are such entitled whiners", "All of your concerns are dumb", "There is no middle ground between early-access with daily twitter posts and 1 update every 18-months", "I just point out people's entitlement".
 
If this were a movie, I'd complain that the antagonists are too predictable.
 
 

It's important not to paint Battlefront with the same brush as some of their more "dedicated" fans, because it isn't fair to Battlefront. These "super fans" take any criticism of the game, or even sometimes bug reports, as personal attacks. You'll see their kind in any sort of niche community, it's best to ignore them.  

I wold also like to point again that, even though I expressly stated this is about comms, someone comes in and says its about release dates.  Its some kind of obsession.  The example should have been:
BF: If everything works out we're looking at releasing it by the end of August...
end of August comes and goes
Customer: Is the game going to be released soon?
BF: {silence}
Customer: What's the status of the game I preordered?
Beta tester, et al: Stop giving BFC a hard time for missing the date
Customer: Can we just get a status on the release and patch?
Beta testers, et al: Stop bringing this up or BFC will stop making games
continues on for a few weeks...

I know you are just beta testers.  But it is you guys that come back in and seem to try to turn the conversation about everyone picking on Steve and BFC.  And you come across as semi-official.  So what you say carries some weight.
Instead of just saying, yeah, we know it sucks that our boss doesn't communicate, you feel the need to aggregate every slight BFC has ever faced in their 19 year history.  There are a couple beta testers that generalize individual statements into all out customer-led attacks on all that is BFC.  It would probably be better as a beta tester to not say anything.  Let it go.  By you guys coming in and trying to ride herd, you are letting Steve and BFC off the hook on their poor business practices. 
People will come in and complain.  So what?  Its not like BFC is going to suddenly change or salvage its reputation in single forum thread.  You guys do more harm then good when you circle the wagons on issues that are legitimate or excuse away BFC's actions/inactions.  You guys, as beta testers seem very frustrated by these conversations.  So why do you involve yourselves?   Let BFC address it, or not.
I came to the place in my life that I recognize that BFC makes great games, but, outside a cadre of old players and beta testers, they really don't like their customers much.  I still play now and then, and I poke my head in now and then, but I tend not to take stuff personally much.  As long as the games are good, I'll put up with the abuse.

The most frustrating thing to me is that  when someone complains about the comms blackout, it's immediately run up as a tirade about missing deadlines.  There are a number of people who have specifically stated that its not about the date, its about being left in the dark.
Can someone who is in any kind of "know" just address that?  And its not just about this site.  There are threads on other sites where the attitude is much harsher about the lack of updates.  And those sites should be a marketing dream for BFC.  Instead, BFC is vilified for not communicating. 
A simple five minutes to post an update would solve this particular point.  A simple "Its taking longer than expected.   Limited time, overly complex, unexpected challenges, dog ate my homework, yada yada."

That's intentionally misleading. People are taking issue with no subsequent posts being made, not with the initial announcement, and not even with the date possibly slipping.

My god - it is alarming to think that the message they might receive is to not post at all, rather than "post more than once".

Paradoxical statement!! Either they did provide an indication or they didn't!

Regardless, preorder implicitly requires some indication for release, otherwise it renders the concept of preorder totally meaningless. 

For arguments sake, if it were "leaked" that the game won't be released till next summer, how many here would opt to have their money back for now and we'll "preorder" again next Easter instead (or perhaps not at all)?!!? 

WAAAH! I had many a frustrating but fun night playing Trespasser. Man, that game had the absolute WORST controls ever seen! I actually finished it, though.
As far as the dramatics go, I just wanted to know if SF2 is gonna be late, so I can re-calibrate my expectations. I think that's all most of us wanted to know. But at this point it's looking like it will be LOL. Three more days and the question will be moot and answered.
 
Mord.

My bold. Yeah, I'd say a lot. No, I won't be pinned down to a percentage! As to the "not at all" (re-pre-order, if that's a word), well, c'mon: this is Combat Mission. You'll do it. You may grumble, but you'll do it.
FWIW, I don't commit money to pre-order...ever.  But, that's only because I got burned in the past. (See "Trespasser", an early computer game loosely based on Jurassic Park. Yeah...never again will I order after I got that p.o.s.) There's a boardgame company which lets you pre-order, but they do not bill you until the game is about to ship. As in a day or two prior, if that early.
However, BFC has an ironclad reputation for delivering... It's just that they also have a reputation of taking longer than a lot of folks would like. This is a case in point.

I would love to pre-order CM:SF2, but my concern is whether the game is going to be delayed. We're already at Sept. 27 and no further info has been released, at least from my understanding. Don't get me wrong, I have full intention of purchasing CM (seems like a pretty incredible game), but the fact remains I could spend my money on something else for the time being (Steel Beasts, TrackIR, etc.).

While there is certainly some overreaction going on about the late demo and release here that surely won´t benefit anybody but this isn´t even the part that annoys me so much.
After following this thread and skimming trough many recent I must say what definitely annoys me is the fact that most suggestions and ALL negative feedback , no matter if it is about Battlefront or related to the Combat Mission games itself, no matter if it is valid and very well thought out, no matter if the author invested his time into it, it is always compromised in a perfidious way by the same two, three overbearing forum members to such an extent that productive effort is almost impossible to be made or the thread is turned into a goofy trolling space.
It is like if a forum police is going around here 24/7 looking for instantly shutting down anything that is too progressive or could be perceived as criticism in the slightest possible way. Frankly I can´t remember ever have seen such a severe case of that before and I´ve been to alot game or sim forums. If you guys´ believe you´re helping the devs with that, you surely do not.

I don't think there is any need to apologize for missing a release window, but I'll repeat that it is not too much to ask for the community to be informed when that window is no longer viable. 

Thanks for refocusing this essential point!  Spot on observation that every post that digresses from this only serves as a straw man for BF apologists to knock down and denigrate. They feed on this! Equally concerning is conflating kickstarter campaigns with preordered games when they are totally different things; there is likely little if no legal liability attached to kickstarter funded games, however preordered games are still a product that the customer anticipates, it's bound by contract law and if the dev fails to deliver the customer is entitled to a refund.

I must state that I have enough confidence in BF to feel certain that this won't happen. And I'm more than willing to support these fantastic games with my hard earned cash present and future. But all this kind of talk wouldn't happen if BF just communicated at key times to let the community know what's going on. If the games not ready till xmas - fine, I'll drop by again then, or perhaps you can send me an email to let me know when the demo is out! Keeping the average customer happy should not be hard work, but this really is basic stuff.

I hope that Steve recognises this when he surfaces and dissipates all frustrations with a simple apology (as he did in July). It's quickly accepted, but more importantly some recognition from him about this issue would vindicate our perspective, and moreover, perhaps then the 'apologists' might reflect a bit on their own ill-considered reactions which are misplaced, unkind, patronising and sometimes just verge on plain arrogance!   

Thanks for refocusing this essential point!  Spot on observation that every post that digresses from this only serves as a straw man for BF apologists to knock down and denigrate. They feed on this! Equally concerning is conflating kickstarter campaigns with preordered games when they are totally different things; there is likely little if no legal liability attached to kickstarter funded games, however preordered games are still a product that the customer anticipates, it's bound by contract law and if the dev fails to deliver the customer is entitled to a refund.

I must state that I have enough confidence in BF to feel certain that this won't happen. And I'm more than willing to support these fantastic games with my hard earned cash present and future. But all this kind of talk wouldn't happen if BF just communicated at key times to let the community know what's going on. If the games not ready till xmas - fine, I'll drop by again then, or perhaps you can send me an email to let me know when the demo is out! Keeping the average customer happy should not be hard work, but this really is basic stuff.

I hope that Steve recognises this when he surfaces and dissipates all frustrations with a simple apology (as he did in July). It's quickly accepted, but more importantly some recognition from him about this issue would vindicate our perspective, and moreover, perhaps then the 'apologists' might reflect a bit on their own ill-considered reactions which are misplaced, unkind, patronising and sometimes just verge on plain arrogance!   

This is a ridiculous overreaction and not helpful. All you do when you go overboard like this is give the denizens of this place that seem so desperate to defend every action Battlefront makes meat to chew on. Don't do it. Also, don't pre-order digital goods unless you are getting something really good for doing so.
This reminds me of Kerberos Productions with Sword of the Stars 2. That game was launched busted on release, with the producer claiming that the code "exploded", which is why SotS2 was inoperable at launch. At no point does video game software ever become "explosive". Similarly, I find the idea that a shop as small as Battlefront, there are people who don't know when release is until about 10 minutes before hand, unbelievable. 
 
If you say "Late September", it's not unreasonable for people to expect an update when that goal is no longer feasible. You don't have to come up with a new explanation or date while doing so, but it's pretty disrespectful to string people along who are expecting a release.
 
Especially because this is also holding back needed fixes for titles that have already been released.

Really when customers paid $120 in advance they have no right to be notified or updated when they might actually receive the product?? You really should rethink that!!

To be honest it's getting to the point where I'm thinking that I ought to request a refund because I could spend the money on something else that I can enjoy right now, not in 6 months time. I don't think that's an unreasonable regret on the part of the customer either!

Really when customers paid $120 in advance they have no right to be notified or updated when they might actually receive the product?? You really should rethink that!!

To be honest it's getting to the point where I'm thinking that I ought to request a refund because I could spend the money on something else that I can enjoy right now, not in 6 months time. I don't think that's an unreasonable regret on the part of the customer either!

Really when customers paid $120 in advance they have no right to be notified or updated when they might actually receive the product?? You really should rethink that!!

To be honest it's getting to the point where I'm thinking that I ought to request a refund because I could spend the money on something else that I can enjoy right now, not in 6 months time. I don't think that's an unreasonable regret on the part of the customer either!

"No, we are going to miss late September" is a perfectly reasonable thing for a community to expect by now, if the date will indeed be missed. I don't think Battlefront respects the community enough to provide that though.
 
Far more important than the release of a new product is that this represents yet another delay to the 4.0 patch. Something that people have already paid for.