Heinrich505

sburke, Really excellent posting. You are right on target about how deep and involved the action can be. You have to take the time to look for it though. By getting down with the virtual troops you can see so much. I can easily understand how you get attached to your troops. I've done quite a few AARs for CMAK/CMBB and always felt I was right in the middle with them, sharing their desperation and adrenaline. Please keep posting. I agree with the previous posts. We really enjoy your insight and commentary, paired with the excellent visual shots. Heinrich505

sburke, Classical, as always. When the lads suddenly had that frigging tank in front of them your narrative cracked me up completely. Was it beamed in from the Philadelphia Experiment? Those guys had to hear it in the smoke. What were they thinking? Your screenshots are excellent and tell the story so well. I love it! Thanks for sharing. Heinrich505

sburke, This is an amazing vignette of close action, and the screenshots are amazing. Thanks for taking the time to search deep into the game action and put this together for us. It really shows the rich detail of reactions shown by the virtual soldiers. I love it! Heinrich505

Samba, Might I also add the following authors. Many go beyond just the tactical operations and put you in the trenches with the men. I've been leaning more towards books that cover both the tactical as well as first person accounts and books by these authors are outstanding in their breadth, research, and description. Douglas Nash Jason D. Mark Russ Schneider James Lucas Robert Kershaw Amazon searches will bring these authors up as well. Like Jaeger, I wasn't exactly sure what you were searching for. Heinrich505

Coe, Der Alte Fritz has done an excellent job of putting together scenarios from The Scenario Depot II. I just looked up the Hetzer scenario you were asking about. The scenario is under the Seelowe Heights compilation, and the title is CSDT-SH4-DogsofWar. It is a smashing battle with a veritable swarm of Hetzers pouring down the hill to rescue a town garrison being overwhelmed by a literal wave of Soviet armor. Heinrich505

Amazing photos. DAF, you are right about the ghostly effect the melding of the photos has. Some of the "then" photos are quite famous, and when put into the present in this fashion it makes for a fantastic effect. Heinrich505

Der Alte Fritz, Sorry for the delay. I had a lot of travel to deal with the past two weeks, and all work related, I am afraid. I have finished your Melikhovo 5 PM, playing as Soviet against the AI with a +2 CEB. The primary mission on this was to see how the Soviet armor charge fared against the AI, using the shoot-and-scoot maneuver we've been discussing. The whole scenario is quite interesting, although from a Soviet position in H2H, I would say there isn't much to do except see if the German player can break through your already well thought-out placement. The Soviet H2H player will end up counter-attacking any success his human opponent manages to incur. To that extent, it might not hold a lot of excitement until much later in the game. As for the Soviet armor charge, it seemed to go quite well. Out of a total of about 20 Soviet tanks, 18 T-34 and 2 T-70, I had only one T-70 knocked out immediately. All the rest advanced quickly and safely(?) until partway across the map. I had one T-34 immobilized, and shortly he was dispatched. On the other hand, my hail-fire seemed to be somewhat successful, knocking out several halftracks and several Mark III tanks that had been immobilized by mines and were facing wrong way. Rear hull hits were the result of those encounters. Once I got closer, things got really bad fast. Several immobilized Tiger tanks took a bloody toll on my T-34s with highly accurate flank shots, as well as one Tiger that had crashed into the village and was now facing the oncoming tank charge, practically solo. Once a brave Soviet tank-hunter team dispatched that Tiger, the charging T-34s had a chance, and I rushed them into the relative safety of the Soviet lines, where they were no longer in LOS from the immobilized Tigers. Then the game ended, but I had successfully(?) rushed 4 intact T-34s, 1 gun-damaged T-34, and one T-70 across the map. As they had to deal with a very significant volume of flank fire, I'd say it was a better than expected result. In a tip of the hat to JoMc67, I should have included covered arcs, as my charging T-34 tanks were distracted by straggling infantry and crews. The shoot-and-scoot commands managed to over-ride the tank commanders' natural proclivity to reverse once they faced Tigers they couldn't destroy. This kept them moving forward despite seeing their fellow tankers exploding in flames from hits by 88mm shells. I would say it was somewhat of a success, considering they were charging across a flanking-fire swept area, with some but not much terrain cover, and into the face of an angry Tiger tank. The AI had some stellar gunnery practice, but I managed to get about 1/4 of my tanks into the village area. Along the way, they convinced many immobilized German AI tankers to abandon their broken crates, and they destroyed quite a few halftracks while on the move. As for being historically successful, I think it works well to simulate a Soviet tank charge within the present game parameters. From accounts I have read, Soviet tank gunners were strongly encouraged to fire their guns while on the move, especially while en-mass in large tank formations. The idea was two-fold. There was a fair chance that with twenty or so guns all firing at targets at the same time, they might hit or suppress the enemy positions or tanks. The second was to boost morale and keep the crew busy, instead of them holding on as the tank bounced around in a crazy charge, with their fear increasing as they waited to get closer to the enemy position, all the while expecting some enemy shell to tear through their steel crate and set them ablaze. I'll go into more detail on the overall impressions I have over in The Proving Grounds for your scenario. It was quite an interesting time, viewing a small part of history seem to come to life in 3D, after having read so much about Kursk. Very nicely done. Heinrich505

JoMc67, A very interesting set of rules. Soviet armor had very rigid command early on in the war, suffering from lack of radios and the commander also working as a gunner. The use of flag signals for formations and everyone pretty much doing exactly as the command tank ment for some pretty stilted action on their part. I think your set of rules is approaching that fairly well. I like the covered arcs simply because I've had tanks that suddenly whirled their turrets to target infantry while they were racing forwards, only to have enemy armor tear them apart from the front, where their doggone turret should have been facing in the first place. Their rigidity eased up a bit as the war went on but it seems they still felt their strength lay in mass firing of all units or closing fast with the enemy armor and overwhelming them. Hence your rules for limited range on covered arcs while continuing to close would also serve a tank charge. I'll have to check into them. They seem like pretty good "house" rules. Heinrich505

Der Alte Fritz, I have it, and am working it now. I have some travel for work coming up, so I'll be a little delayed. I am playing it as Soviets vs. AI, even though you call for it to be H2H. We'll see how aggressive the German AI is at +2 CEB. I have to say that the initial Soviet set-up looks terrifyingly lethal, and quite accurate from all that I've read on the subject. I also read your Russian Way of War document to get more insight on this. I left the Soviet set-up on default, as I wanted to preserve the accuracy of your research. It truly gives one more insight on just how difficult the Germans had it trying to breach the Soviet defense in depth during the Kursk battles. It is one thing to read about it in books, and study the maps. But then to see it in 3D, guns bristling everywhere, mine fields sprouting all over....it brings the whole thing to life before your eyes. That is the part I most enjoy about this game. I shall report on this as I get further into the battle. It looks positively beastly. Heinrich505

JoMc67, I have not tried the covered arc tactic while racing my armor forward. I might have to look into that. Why the 250 meters when on fast move? Heinrich505

Der Alte Fritz, I noticed Melikhovo 2 PM on The Proving Grounds, but didn't see your 5 PM version. I'll watch for it. Heinrich505

Nox, You've definitely found some high quality scenarios to play. If you really want to get crazy, don't pull back your troops and watch the fur fly as suddenly you have T-34s right next to AT guns or infantry in houses. In one of GeorgeMC's Bäke scenarios, I'd fought so hard to take the village, and then the next part of the operation called for me to set up outside of the village I'd just taken. I figured the enemy would be in the village if I left my troops there, but they'd fought so hard to take it that I took a chance and left my troops in their positions. It was pure pandemonium and I came out on the worst end of it, as it was literally enemy forces set up right in the midst of my guys. It wasn't the right decision, but I managed to make up for it as the battle played out. Good luck. I know you'll enjoy the fight though. Heinrich505

Der Alte Fritz, I massed my tank reinforcements behind a high hill area, edging them up against the ridge. Intel on what was on the other side was a bit sketchy, so I pushed infantry along the left flank, to see better. Every time I snuck infantry up on the ridge, a cast of thousands immediately spotted them and broke them. I also played cat and mouse with a platoon of Mark IV tanks, and they tried to ease over the top, getting blasted by many T-34 gun tubes. However, the moment of truth was approaching. I didn't want to wait too long to make the rush for the bridge, so at about turn 28 of 50+, I started a rush on the right flank to perhaps draw some fire, and waited to start the rush on the left flank a turn later. Then a turn after that I started a rush across the center, hoping to catch some of the AI in flank profile as they turned to fire at the left and right rushes. Each of the charges had from 12 to 18 tanks in them. All were using the shoot and scoot. The right charge lasted maybe two turns before all but three were burning or knocked out. The left charge lasted maybe three turns, and I did get 3 T-34 tanks onto the bridge and two T-70s as well. All the others took flank shots and died quickly. The center charge did catch several AFVs in the flank, but they were quickly destroyed as well. The few who did get to the bridge tried to forge their way out of the gully towards the exit area, and were promptly fired on - quite historically, I might add - by surviving tanks from their rear or flanks, resulting in annihilation. The Russian commander was seen weeping uncontrollably at the loss of his entire tank unit as he was gently led behind a small wooded area from his HQ by soldiers of the NKVD. One was readying a Makarov pistol, for the coup de grace. There was way too much enemy overwatch for this tactic to work here. I'm wondering if I had just rushed them on fast towards cover, but then again, the flanking shots would still have gotten them. The tactic worked great against the static line of AT guns, and overwhelmed them quickly with minimal loss. There wasn't any overwatch to protect the enemy line. In the other scenario that I tried this tactic, the charge was protected on the flanks by terrain, so the only shots were coming from a limited number of enemy tanks directly in front of them. I think that is why it worked for that situation too. In this case, there were many enemy tanks across the AT ditch, as well as many in position to cover the flanks of such a charge. Another factor might well have been the large number of halftracks that drew the tanks fire, instead of them massing their fire against enemy tanks. While they were punching holes in the halftracks, the tanks at a distance were punching holes in them. If I had tried to ease the center tanks up onto the ridge and provide overwatch for the right and left flank charges, I might have saved some of the ones charging, for the loss of the ones on the ridge. It is all good fun though. I am not giving up on this tactic. It does have a place depending on the other factors of the battle. Also, it is a real kick seeing that wall of tanks racing across the battlefield. Heinrich505

Der Alte Fritz, I'm on it. I've played through 8 turns of a 50+ turn scenario so far. Won't have much more time tonight, as I've got...ugh...work tomorrow. It may be a busy week, so I'll try to get through more of it as the week goes on and report. So far, I have literally dashed the entire wall of Soviet armor directly at the first static line of defense on the left and center flank. Everyone was using shoot-and-scoot. They overwhelmed the German defenses, causing many defenders to break and run. The wall of tanks was about 36 total. Losses so far were 6 tanks blown up, all right in front of a PAK front. Six out of 36 is 1 out of 6 or, what, 16.6% losses? Not bad. As an aside, after the rush, one was immobilized by infantry attack, and one wiped out by a flamethrower (geez, that was ugly). The flame boys were not allowed to surrender, as about 30 tanks opened fire on them. Also, many of the tanks didn't have their infantry stripped off either, and the tank riders were able to jump off and assault the surviving infantry that decided to hold fast. On the right flank, all 12 T-34s were blasted, as historically, they rushed through a wheatfield in a front and flank crossfire. They were also using shoot-and-scoot, but it didn't do them any good. Well, that is it for now. I am massing for a rush over another rise in the steppe, and haven't gotten to the anti-tank ditch yet. Another wall of armor just arrived and these guys are slated for exit. It was terrifying to see the armor racing forward in a giant charge. No wonder the battle was described the way it was. Oh yes, the only support was rocket batteries firing on turn one, expending their whole fire on that turn. I used the 76 arty spotter for smoke, and have smoked two hilltops one left and one right. The smoke is over now, so the tanks will rush over the rise, through smoke, and attempt to overrun a Tiger, Panther, and Mark IV. It doesn't look good for the home team though. There are a lot of German tanks massing on the other side of the anti tank ditch. Heinrich505

DAF, Really nice test, and one related to your earlier observations that the Soviet tank charge would have support. Having the 45mm AT guns was perfect, as they would pin the Germans. The plan would obviously be getting so close as to have a chance to stop and hit, or run past, in which case, just as in your test, the German tanks/assault guns would have to turn to fire on the flankers and get punched by the AT guns, or stay facing front and take flank shots from the side. Terrible dilemma, but a very real one. In the scenario I was playing, the last remaining StuG, when faced with a wall of Soviet armor charging towards it, decided to turn to run for cover, and was then plastered in the side they exposed. The smarter choice would have been to hit reverse and try to back into some cover. Still, the commander might have thought he could drive faster forward to cover. I liked your new test. It has a rather real life feel to it. Nice. Heinrich505

Der Alte Fritz, I just had occasion to play Warmonger's 2nd of three Kursk scenarios, CSDT-P2-Andre' evka. I'd played the first one some time back, and that had a wild Russian tank charge across the steppes. This one looked a little different, as it had woods and villages along the Psel, but there was a wide expanse of steppe to my left flank. The map was quite historical in its rendering. It appeared I would be slogging my way up the road and dodging from building to building with copious amounts of armor and infantry. I did get bogged down, as the AI was tenacious. The SS Totenkopt men were fighting viciously. I received several waves of T-34s towards the middle of the battle. One I rushed up the steppe and tried a flanking move, which suffered quite a bit, in the order of 50%. I did manage some flanking action though. Now comes the interesting part. I realized that I was running out of time, and had been lying back with a large tank formation, around 12 to 15. I had managed to thin out the enemy StuGIII a bit, but they were still deadly. Realizing I had to do something desperate and quite historically Soviet, I charged the whole lot of them. I also added in some from the wooded areas too, which made for a veritable wall of armor. I decided to use the shoot-and-scoot maneuver we'd been discussing in this thread. Now I wasn't able to perform this as exactly as you'd suggested, but I think I was fairly close to keeping the distances somewhat accurate. I was able to eat up a good 3/4s of the map in about 5 or 6 turns, with very few losses to enemy armor. The losses mainly came from the Luftwaffe, who decided to finally make an appearance and couldn't resist a giant armor charge of T-34 tanks. I ran up on the last two Stug's so quickly that essentially I overwhelmed them. The one panicked and tried to turn to flee, and was caught in the flank with the hail of shells launched at it. It was quite a gamble, but one that paid off somewhat. I was able to make the 2nd flag at Andre' evka, and did it with a fairly successful armor charge across an open steppe area with essentially no covering support. The tank charge was quite something to watch, and had a very historical feel to it. While this is just one small test, I think you are on to something with this tactic for trying to replicate in some semi-historical way a Soviet tank charge. Very interesting indeed. Heinrich505

I have never been disappointed by any of the scenarios from the Blowtorch team. They are crafted extremely well, and give you quite a historical feel for what you have been reading in books all these years. Having read a lot on the east front subject, I found myself playing out engagements I'd read about, and was now reliving them in 3D, with tank guns going off and explosions everywhere. One of my better AARs resides on The Proving Grounds after playing one of Major Dr. Bäke's battles. It played out almost like it read from the historical accounts, with the HQ unit representing Major Bäke, at one point in the battle, hunting Soviet tanks between houses on foot with panzerfausts and grenade bundles. The tension was palpabable. I just wish that GeorgeMC had moved that one over to The Scenario Depot II. If you just rachet up the CEB (+2 or +3), the AI does some amazing things. I had an ambush all set up in the fog, as Soviet T-34s were trundling up the main road in town. All they had to do was push past the edge of a building, and I'd have the first shot, at approximately 20 meters (yes, everything was close, due to the fog). Instead, the lead Russian tank swerved off the road, drove between two houses, and hit me from the flank. As I accidentally had another tank nearby that had a line of sight to this maneuver, I only lost one tank, and the clever Russian tanker also blew up. I can't say enough about how much work GeorgeMC and Schmavis put into their scenarios. They are so well done. Heinrich505

DAF, Very interesting indeed. I love your tests. There was quite a difference in the hunt/fast versus the scoot/shoot for ground covered, and even to survivability. I may have to try this out on some of Warmonger's Kursk battles to see what effect it might have. I have always wanted to see if the vaunted "tank charges" I've read so much about on the eastern front were something that could be replicated. We have the option for human waves early on in the game, but trying to get all your tanks to just charge ahead was a real hit-or-miss prospect. Heinrich505

Very nice test. Looking forward to your additional tests as well. Seems that the tank was moving consistently forward while throwing rounds at the enemy. Would you alternate your turns, as 100m Scoot - 100m Shoot (first turn), then 50m shoot - 150m scoot (second turn), then back to 100m scoot - 100m shoot (third turn) and so on? Heinrich505

Der Alte Fritz, You got me to wondering on this point. I have found that shoot and scoot didn't work well with the Russian tankers, as I tried this extensively on one of Warmonger's scenarios covering the tank charges during Kursk. Seemed they either ignored the order, or took so long to do so, that the ones who did got gutted by the German armor. I have never tried the shoot and scoot by ordering the tank further ahead, only having them retreat. That might work though. Trying to replicate some of the Soviet tank charges I've read about on the eastern front would be interesting. There was a lot of fast movement, shooting on the move, and generally trying to overwhelm the German line with a wall of tanks spitting fire and racing ahead. It was certainly intimidating, but the logic of "they can't shoot us all before we get them" broke down quite often. Heinrich505

Rankorian, Yeah, the P51s did help, but when playing as the German side, those extra TA-152s along with the ME-262s would make mincemeat out of a stack of P51s trying to guard their B-17s and B-24s. Ah yes, that was one heck of a game. I did the same thing, writing down three sets of target orders for the bombers, and then pick one at random, while playing it solitaire. Avalon Hill was the pinacle for the time. I made my younger brother play as the Japanese, using hidden movement, in Guadalcanal. He kept losing track of his units. The US won, of course. However, then came Squad Leader. A stunning game. After that, nothing could come close to ASL, until, of course, computers took over, and you could actually fight with virtual squads and squad leaders on 3D. CM was, and still is, amazing. Heinrich505

Guys, I thought the whole thing was really well done. The terrain did not allow for sweeping grand maneuvers, and the weather was miserable - mainly Seattle in the fall, which gave me the heebee geebees. It was going to be a cautious set piece battle, with a lot of give and take, along with some deception and careful planning. I'd say you both took stock of the conditions and played out a careful game of chess. Having a set number of turns does allow for the "mad flag rush" at the end, a somewhat un-realistic maneuver, but having set that, both of you could have rushed the flag at the end, with a mad minute of bloodbath for your audience - it would have been glorious, ha ha. Tux, I am sure you lost track of the time, expecting the battle to go a few more turns past the 30 turn mark. I've been caught myself when I didn't read the scenario designer's rules closely enough. It was interesting to see what both of you purchased for the battle. Having the prospect of a clash of titans - IS-2 versus Tiger - was an attention getter and kept your audience watching in case it happened. The quick flurry of the armor battle resulting in the loss of Mylgas' Tiger had me holding my breath to see what happened. Seeing him bog his other Tiger twice and escape from the clutches of the mud was just as amazing. I, for one, just enjoy watching the action. Neither of you have anything to prove, win or lose. You are both excellent players, and I applaud you both for putting yourself out for all to see, criticize, or second-guess. I find myself thinking about how I'd move the forces available, and can always learn from what others add to the discussion. I think that Mylgas is catching up to you now, because he fought you to a draw this time. Playing quality people always improves ones game. As to the game itself, I would probably have moved more recklessly up the middle, feeling out for his troops, and likely getting spanked mightily for it. His Tigers would have been reluctant to move up if there was the chance I'd tag one with AT weapons, or draw him into a flank shot from the AT gun. And, I would have forgotten about the fixed turn limit and found myself planning another move when the end game screen came up...ooops. I enjoyed both of your actions. Thanks again for the neat battle. Heinrich505

Vark, I too had the tank severly spanked into a pile of broken steel, by that ATR in the church, even as the ground floor of the church was being assaulted directly underneath the ATR boys. Had the tank survived the rush to the church, I could have held off and/or broken the assault from the trench on the right, or the hordes of infantry pouring from the buildings on the left, crossing the cemetery, and dodging into the right-front corner of the church. Rankorian, yes, I had to distract the trench troops by advancing a platoon up the right side, then into the trees just below the trench. I had a light MG firing for all it was worth as supression fire into the right side of the trench, and it finally broke one of the enemy infantry squads. Only the platoon leader, by himself, crawled into the trench on the left side, holding off the Russians from regaining the trench. The Russians didn't want to lose that doggone church. The maxim crew on the second floor surrendered as my guys rushed into the church. I didn't move them out, because there was way too much gunfire ripping around. I had a few men upstairs with them, but something curious happened. All of a sudden the surrendered crew was dead. I wasn't paying any attention to them, so I don't know what exactly happened. I strongly suspect that when their comrades broke into the church, the maxim boys tried to re-man their gun, and were cut down. Now I wish I'd watched them closer, or at least moved them out of the church. What a wild struggle. Heinrich505

Rankorian, I was running this at +2 CEB for the AI. I tried a pre-planned and a turn 4 smoke barrage. The pre-planned one left my boys wide open, as I didn't move them up fast enough. I guess "advance" was too slow. Using Q to delay the smoke the second time, I managed to get into the church after working forward with some Movement commands, then advance. I still lost about half my force from flanking fire, and couldn't move forward after that. The AI counter-attacked relentlessly, getting a toe-hold in the church on the corner near the cemetery and trenches on the right. Admittedly, I lost the tank on a lucky shot from somewhere?? which didn't help me any. I would have been able to break the counterattacks with the tank. I eeked out a tactical defeat, and had plenty of fun doing that. The carnage in the church was terrible. Heinrich505

Tagge, Very nicely detailed. Smoke? Why the hell didn't I think of that? I tried softening up the church with arty - not much effect. I did almost get into some of the buildings on the left flank, but in the center, I was stuffed at the road just below the church. My tank survived till about turn 12, when I rushed a building on the left flank with it and took a hail of molotovs, before the AT weapon knocked it out. I'll be returning to try some new tactics. I was going to pull the guys out of the building on the left and use just MGs. You note that this worked quite well. Interesting. Thanks for your review. Heinrich505