zmoney

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I took offence to his statement so I posted something equally ridiculous.

I don't doubt he's an up standing citizen. I only posted that last paragraph in contrast to what he said about me. I think it’s funny that you went out of your way to defend him from my comment, yet you have no problem with the one he made towards me.

Two quick points here: 1) No they mustn’t be defended here because this isn’t a courtroom. 2) I’m not saying that these soldiers were 100% right for what they did. I’m just saying there’s a huge deference between killing POW’s that surrender on the battlefield (clearly a war crime) and killing these SS scum at the prison when it’s a huge shock to your system when you stumble across something like that. They weren’t thinking clearly at the moment. Plus I think a thing a lot seem to be missing here is these were guys from 60 years ago that weren’t exposed to things growing up like we are today. Such as the news showing pictures of genocide, from Rawanda, Kosovo or wherever. This concentration camp was totally foreign to these guys so they didn’t know how to react. Should they have turned them over for trial? Yes. Did they? No. Do I understand why they reacted this way? Yes. That’s all I’m saying. I didn’t say they didn’t deserve reprimand. That's like saying you go to your friend’s house, you find him almost dead and his family grotesquely murdered. Before your friend dies he says to you; the guy who killed my family is in the bathroom. So you go in there and kill the guy who is in the bathroom. Is this right? No. But I can understand why you did this.

Dadelion, your crazy. I could have sworn we were talking about WW2, which ended in 1945. And in particular this specific case involving Dachu. Saying that because some GI’s shot some SS scum at a concentration camp will lead to GI’s rounding up other German prisoners and killing them is just plain stupid. Because it didn’t happen, we know this because the event already took place like 60 years ago. Further more I think the word slippery slope is way over used these days. What in the papers today said anything about soldiers killing prisoners? You also need to watch your trolling Dandy because I wasn’t trolling any one or advocating we kill German scum with out a trial. I was just trying to convey the point of; I hardly think this was a premeditated war crime intent on wiping out the German people. I think this was just something that these guys stumbled upon and its not like they had seen this type of evil before, and they reacted. Now if they just captured other soldiers else where and executed them on the spot that would definitely be a full blown war crime, and I’m not trying to defend that behavior. So again Dandy how does this Dachu case in any way reflect on other events involving prisoner abuse today? I hope there will be more people like me that will not stand for people like you who want to defend people who murder others just because they are of another race or religion. [ February 15, 2006, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: zmoney ]

I don't think its much of a slippery slope because we're dealing with history from 60+ years ago, where the facts state that the US GI's didn't go to the surrounding towns and kill as many Germans as they could. They only killed the scum at the camps. Now if this happened yesterday then it would be a slippery slope because you would defenitly want to draw the line so the GI's wouldn't go around killing prisoners. But that wasn't the case anyway.

Uhm I think you answered your own question with this statement: This brought a stop to terrorism in the Philippines for the next 50 years.

I don't know if you meant this as a joke, but they did still hunt down the gaurds 40+ years later. In fact just a few months ago the US finally agreed to send a retired automotives worker from Michigan to Israel to stand trial. He was suspected of being a gaurd at a concentration camp. And to suggest that they should just be forgive 40+ years later isn't sound judgement.

That is awsome. I was wondering if someone was going to or had already done this, because I like to use buried tanks as armored pillbox's. Looks great thanks a lot.

I didn't say they weren't war crimes. I honestly in my opinion don't think they were wrong for doing it either. But this example is a whole lot deferent than normal situations. Thats what I'm saying, this was an abnormal situation. Not the norm which some are suggesting.

What’s an Islamic style response? Honestly Stalin’s O I thought your post was a pretty big misrepresentation of the actual event. There’s a huge difference between some kiwi’s getting doped up and shooting up a German hospital for kick’s and a break out attempt at night when your surrounded and don’t know what’s exactly out there. I’m sure those Kiwi boys were scared and didn’t want to die, so they made sure the enemy around them died instead. Honestly I think you would have done the same thing had you been in their situation. Plus it’s not against the GC to shoot someone as long as you didn’t already pass them and come back just to kill them because you wanted to. In fact in the training I received in the military it says to shoot people that are in front of you until you know they are dead. John Kettler, I think I have the answer to the 670,000 MIA. My mother in laws cousin and uncle fought on the east front. Her uncle came home but his son, her cousin never did and was listed MIA. Well years later one of the cousins mates found the family and told them he had died in combat and was buried somewhere in Russia in an unmarked grave. Also if you have ever read Guy Sajer book titled the Forgotten soldier, he mentions several such instances of where someone died and they just buried him on the side of the road. In some cases I doubt they even knew the soldier that had died. So if I had to guess I would say at least half of the MIA’s were buried in this fashion and maybe their comrades that buried them were later killed so they never got to report what had happened to the individual. Hell even the old German Prime ministers Father was buried in an unmarked grave in Romania and he didn’t find out about it until the 90’s. The other half were probably blow to bits or buried in the same fashion by the Russians or Brits or Americans or whoever came across them. I’ve read accounts of the local villagers burying the war dead left behind, and I don’t think they knew the proper procedures to report the death to the German High command. I’m sure some Axis soldiers were killed after they surrendered, but to suggest that these 670,000 men were worked to death in a French, Brit or US POW camp is asinine. If your talking about any SS member that was killed at a concentration camp then I don’t care how many were killed because like Big Duke and the others have said it’s a natural human reaction when confronted with such a horrific sight. I would have probably gladly followed the orders of a superior officer if he wanted me to execute those SS scum. I also read that US GI’s were letting the freed inmates at those camps kill or repeatedly shoot the SS guards. Which I also think is ok.

Dave, I'm asking please stop this nonsense. He may flame you as he makes factual points that deal with this topic. You just flame while making no point on topic. Who cares if JasonC isn't fun at parties, this isn’t a cocktail party. I really wasn’t trying to be mean when I posted I thought it was cool that you posted your opinions to learn the truth. You posted the same thing yourself. So when people try and give you truths don’t come up with some political speculative comparison that some how in your mind ties in with the US. No one likes to talk politics on this site and no one comes to this site feeling like they have to defend their respective Nation. So again please stop.

Um, Dave this is a historical thread and a lot of scholarly people post here. I don't think any of Hitler’s actual political plans has anything to do with the way I play CM. So this isn't a hints and tips thread, it’s a historical discussions thread. I think its cool though if you post your opinions so people can read them and try to correct them. I just think JasonC along with a bunch of others on this site are tired of people trying to tie the evils of the world in particular the evils of Hitler in with something the US did. Like the US encouraged Hitler to be evil or something. The invasion of Iraq has absolutely zero in common with the German invasion of Russia ideologically. Militarily, as well for that matter.

Off topic, but is SL and ASL a board game?

Dave do you live in the US. Because if not all you say is speculation based upon what you've read. I'm not denying that racism exist in the US or else where, but to equate someones own personal stupid racism to the way the Nazi government treated the Jews is outrageous. For some reason people want to tie everything bad in the world in with the US and its tiresome. Do you honestly think that if the Jim Crow laws didn't exist that Hitler wouldn't of had the same stupid laws against the Jews?

Oh got it, my apologies Corvidae.

That was my point. You don't seem to have a grasp on European history or US history. You totally negated your whole statement when you said Hitler wasn't anymore or less of a criminal than the leaders of France, England and the US. I did think it was cute though how you left out Stalin as an imperialist, seeing as he's the only one who held on to the territories lost by the Nazi's. Your an idiot who knows little about history.

Corvidae, that was the worst historical analysis I think I've ever had the displeasure of reading. Where did you learn that nonsence, are you a product of the Iranian public school system?

You can try this web site. He has all sorts of great info on exposure and other things like tanks guns and a bunch of great stuff. Chris's data base Just scroll down to near the bottom of the page and you'll see cmx3 tables for cmak and cmx2 for cmbb. Once you have downloaded them open them up and you may not see anything. So click a color from your excel color chart and apply it to the page to be able to read the info.

I've already played most of them. Great job. Unfortunately only against the AI. But still great scenario's and wonderfully put together maps.

My two cents; I love HT’s. Now to be honest I don’t play QB’s. But I think all of this depends on your force composition. For example if all you have is HT’s vs T-34’s then obviously you wont have a chance. But for instance in a scenario called Maxdorf Spoiler “ “ “ “ “ “ “ “ David Chapuis and I played a few months ago I was Axis. I had at the beginning one crack King Tiger and a platoon of inf with HT support for that one platoon. He had like 1000 T-3485. I had to cross the inf about 1000m over damp ground to the town. The result was great, my inf made it to the town without a single loss. My King Tiger kept his tanks busy while I rushed my men to the cover of the town. There was no cover for my HT’s as they made their rush over the open ground, by the way they were in plain sight of his units. I think the only HT I lost on the way was one that bogged. I’m not trying to dispute what JasonC says, because its true if you have 2500 points and you’re the Soviets then there’s plenty of great units to buy that will work instead of Ht. But don’t think they are worthless if you find yourself with them in a designed scenario.

I really didn't mean to state anything political, its just the truth. I think it will be a major factor going into how much help the US would lend. The US population is almost 50/50 when it comes to foreign policy matters.

I think the big thing everyone is discounting in this discussion, which is actually the deciding factor. The American Hippies will never stand for another war no matter what aid the US has promised in the past. The biggest enemy to Taiwan and the US in this situation isn’t really China. It’s the American left. I think the Chinese are realizing this, that’s why they are building up a force sufficient enough to take Taiwan. Plus look at the Yom Kippur war. Just at the Egyptian/Israeli part. The Egyptians denied the Israelis air superiority over the Suez for the first couple of days through the use of SAMs. So I think if the Chinese do this they will have sufficient time to land plenty of troops on Taiwan. Plus I think if the US makes the mistake (oh and the admin will) of not fighting this like a war then we will lose. What I mean by that is I doubt the US will make the necessary strikes on mainland China to stem the tide of supplies. Instead the Admin will probable decide to just fight on Taiwan’s soil exclusively

Jason C, I think you are wrong. During the German campaign in France the German Stuka bombers had great success against French and British tanks. That’s one of the reasons the blitz was so effective. Now I’m not saying they knocked out 85% of the vehicles in the campaign that were knocked out. But to say the plane had little effect in WW2 against heavy armor is wrong. I read a book last year titled Stuka. It was written by Ruedel, I think, any way the highest decorated German Soldier of WW2. He was a Stuka pilot and he personally knocked out a great number of T-34’s and various other Russian heavy armor. I don’t know the exact number but I would say he alone KO’ed over 500 Russian tanks in the course of the war. In France in 44-45 when the allies recaptured France, the Germans tried to keep their armor in cover during the day light hours and only moved at night or bad weather. I don’t think they did this to keep their tanks out of sight from our Shermans. They did this because our pilots would fly over the area just looking for targets of opportunities. Tanks were high on the list of targets of opportunity.