Liam

BTW: This would take away from British hording the French Coastline with superflous transports and add volumes to the strategy and diversity of the game...There would be a true 3rd front before you could perform D-day as was 100% historical Not just train air units to be super dogfighters and unit killers when you have an enemy to worry about at sea

JJ: The truth is that to incorporate any extra hexes on the map may require a whole alteration in the programmers agenda. Require too much! Even an arrow transportation system like the Suez must've been too difficult for him to incorporate easy. A system would be nice or a house rule about Atlantic entry of subs into the Greater Atlantic. There should be 10 hexes extra going North into the Artic Circle to sneak around Ice-GreenLand from Norway. I purpose the idea though that that we could have Baltic sea ships transfered via a Port hex to Archon in France to give free passage of Axis Combat ships only... This would represent both. Sadly I would love an extended N.Atlantic War and with at least the inclusion of several ports from Spain to Greenland to allow for a more diverse game if a player choices to dedicate to Sub and Naval technology on the Axis Side of the Fence. Making it more difficult to get into the Rock would be required to balance game play so you'd have to make Spain hiked up in Price to take for Axis.<should include Port in a DOW> The patch though if included a lot of Ports and supply centers discussed would be an upgrade along the lines of Strategic Command<The Battle of North Atlantic Patch>

Agreed, Carriers are a specialized weapon. Not meant to attack frontline troops in WW2 style wars. The extra unit would be superflous and harder to program. The mainline changes for a new patch would be the addition of transporting out of Spain. The Cut back of the ability of Jets and defense for HQs. Revamping what Carriers role are as said above and making the US an increased MPP Power to rid the game of any and all Bidding. With this inclusion a more advanced Sub System could be implemented for Germany. Perhaps a starting tech for them to make the Atlantic War at least worthwhile a lot to throw around. 15 bucks is cheap, editors take too much work

Well, in many other popularized games the Fighter that sits on the carrier is a seperate entity. Which in this case would probably be interesting with a Supply and readiness limitation<from a certian amount of time at sea> That would probably be more realistic, A LOT more realistic vs Land units. Even after the Japs pounded Pearl they would've had to go in on foot to take the Island they couldn't have done that much damage with only air power... especially not carrier based! I say we make a patch 1.08 and we get charged $15.00 bucks for it. I'll pay for it and I can probably get 100 people here to back me... and it wouldn't take that much work for the alteration!

Kewl now I know why he builds Carriers against me. Usually he does it when I'm completely sucking and taking forever... The easy counter to this is Dutch Gambit round 1. Hold France really late. The germans can't afford to commit to a Navy or LR fighter Tech

Yes JJ: read much of the interest in keeping Germany out of Sweden and Swizterland. Most definitely keeping them out of Spain as well! That's a very unattractive policy to a fellow Fascist regime. Should be huge political punishments to any of those invasions. I agree about a port to resupply to a degree. Perhaps a 5 value port in this areas as Canada has. Even though Canada as I said before had a Larger navy than Germany at a certian point during the War. She should be represented a bit better at least in that regard. The fact is without a few more hexes and the addition of some sort of Fodder ship like a destroyer detachment it's hard to move Navies without costing yourself a mainline ship. I know ships like the SharnhostSP didn't hany any help on it's way down but it was extremely up to date and very competitive with it's speed to any major British Battleship. I suggest that if you move in Coastal hexes that you get some sort of Destroyer bonus rathern than the superflous design of another ship. This way if you attack units say following the Norwegian Coastline or French Coastline you're likely ot encounter lots of counter measures by Luftwaffe-coastal anti-aircraft heavy artillery batteries<as is Historical> Cyprus is on the map. I think it changes hands only if you take Britian however and in what capacity for spying on German/Italian shipping I'm not sure. Tunis definitely should be represented in some fashion. A more major city that tobruk and that's where the infamous German reinforcements #ing 150k surrendered... that's not far of Stalingrad as a blunder! What about the black forest??? Hey!!! It's big enough, compared with the Ardenne. Balancing out some of these key factors and giving Germany Tirpitz at strength 1 in the beginning of the Fall Weis would make a more realistic game engine and less alterations with MPP bids. There isn't a factor you couldn't change discussed here that would throw the game balance off. Subs are worthless... Subs are too easily hunted, they should have greater capability to hide until the Allied Navies update their technology. This would stop Med Hording attacks against the Italian Navy and redicilious Coastal bombardment of German troops all over France early on.They had a job then, it wasn't getting extra hits on German Occupying forces

Oh Yes, there should be a blank port like Scapa Flow in Iceland for it's key importance to the N.Seas Battles

Yugoslavia needs another city, Tirana should have it's port removed. Definitely in this case with Libya having TWO cities! Libya should have 1 city. Portugal needs a port. The very name of the country implies it Spain deserves at least one Port in Barcelona Poland needs a Natural Resource Hex, she has a great amount of coal Germany used to move her war effort. Ploesti is too rich, 1 Oil well would suffice in Romania. Iraq is to rich, the oil there would've been that exploited back in the 1940s, only 1 oil Hex there as well. There should be a city in Palestine, Jerusalem I assume... Crete should have a land connection to Greece cause it serves 0 purpose now and historically it was the key to the Eastern Med<perhaps a shared port from Athens to there> The USA should have double the Oil, and Minerals and several other major cities and ports. The USSR is missing some key cities that are infamous battlegrounds of WW2. England should have a Resource hex for it's own coal reserves... If Germany doesn't attack Sweden/Swizterland/Spain she should recieve MPP bonus each turn. The Swedish Military is too big relative to the military of other nations as is Poland. Add your own points please

England and the United States in certian places are inseperable. We love coffee not tea. We love sweet tasty cookies not with tea dipping cookies. We don't know what bread is, we think this white extremely spongy stuff is bread. It's not BREAD! We Eat meat 6 times a weak they don't 90% of the goons their still don't got guns, and you can see boobs on a very light overthecounter newspaper-gazette-magazine. There isn't so much religious ferver, noone wants to try to save you. though they have lovely and even ancient Steeples. There is a lot of great T.V. here the download our T.V. now adays from the satelite and they love our movies. They're the best! They eat Fish and chips some places, you can still have a warm pint of ale. Although a towns down you can have a McD's Cheeseburger or a Pizza from Pizza Hut. They pay the equivelant<always changing> of 7 bucks for a gallon of gasoline. So I guess that's why they walk a lot more then we do. As an American never sits anywhere uncomfortable for long without starting the Engine and Idling it for temperature control. Not everyone over there has the Internet, AOL and a few other services just dropped in with a flat rate a few years back, before then you had to pay by the minute!!! At our worst we had to pay by the hour!!! a decade ago... It's very cold and rainy, but the architecture is beautiful. The people are warm<accept for those caught up in the classes> the men are kinda skinny cause of the meat thing. Or the opposite now cause of the Mikkie D's thing... Taxes is a pain in the butt over there!!!! 36percent? Think about that before you want to move to a place with 1/10th your violent murders per capita So we're like best buds Mother and Son What's the real difference :shrugs: ::drops jaws wants to belch:: I don't mind America, I'm uniquely American! PLEASE leave that place virgin::

It's true that the tech advantages and disadvantages aren't historic<they're just too ez to get> If you put 5 chits in anything you'll eventually get something in it or lose. Most people cash out in Jet and LR Fighter.<the King Cobra of Techs> Sad thing is we miss beautiful sights often like Panthers/King Tigers. P-51D long range top of the line in great numbers. People advance the UK<even USSR Airforce not the US. In the Air the USSR was crude, the USA was more advanced than any nation<in #s> and there are no use for bombers. None? Zilch? I would debate a house rule in where there is no more jet tech beyond Level3. A house rule where no chits can be spent on either side on Jet tech or longe range until the Fall of France. Naturally one side overmobilized and the other unready wouldn't be making great strides anywhere... It's as realistic as you could make them game I think. The thing with jets is they're so affordable. So when someone thinks to buy heavy bombers or heavy tanks they think second and put it where you can definitely protect it and use it most... Perhaps a change of doctrine would be nice. in particular for GERMANY this would make the game more interesting. Now it's all about UK Air and USSR ground forces. Germany is about domination in th Eastern Skies impossible on such a massive front.

It's easy to beat the USSR. You have to beat them like a meatpie into the 19th century. They have 0 leadership to begin with and a lagging tech. By then you can dominate them! If you build during your occupation wars

::takes my hat off:: ::bows a momen mourning the untouchable:: ::Pulls out a big Hunting Knife:: Soon I will make a record of my own John J. in your blood my friend [ August 02, 2003, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

The German gaining willing and decent soldiers from the ideal manpool outside of Germany's 18-35<?> stocks would be in trouble as would England had less a population of actual true Englishmen and only a few colonies most busy with their own countries affairs. Remeber there was the Japanese threat as well. Also if you united all of German Speaking people in Europe which Hitler did you had quite a manpool to pick from. tenative pops 110 million? for germany Britian always been around that 50million point? The Brits really needed the Manpower<money and supplies> from their American friends but I consider possibly could've taken France back alone with heavy losses towards the end without the US help No soldier from a foreign country aside from a few perhaps Finland would have the anger and quality of infantry outfitted by Germans to face any of the Allies in significant #s. You've got to have a will to fight. A STRONG will, especially when your foe is fairly even and your life is on the line. France-Germany-UK-Germany-USSR-Japan-China are the only countries that seemed to prove they'd sacrifice in great #s Italy by it's early switch over seems to me is a sign the people felt mislead and no real cause The Rest of the Stock was mostly German at least partially [ August 01, 2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

well, outta 20 games I have no arguments yet. Other than I haven't won them all So far most of the active group in the Zleague are the cream of the crop If you should get an unlucky guy Sorry ;)Post him name though please so we all can avoid him

It's hard for air units to win battles. It depends highly on terrain, experience and what the target is. People tend to forget in real life flac guns were much more deadly! To effectively bomb in those days you had to come down in range of the flac to get a vis and a X on your target. Fighters were ill equiped and there were special made aircraft for taking care of each type of foe. Turn fighters, B&Z fighters the backbone of the Air Supremacy Role. Fighter-bomber, <primarily used as air to ground...along the side of divebomber and the carpet bombing B-17s and Lancasters which noone has ever really proven that much accuracy with. Although very devastating on a city! Aircraft carriers in the Pacific were well equiped but I never heard much about Atlantic Aircraft Carriers were much to talk of... When you have a lot of space to cover and a tool that with 1 bomb can knock out a battleship it is deadly. Inaccurate though against ground forces. Would've taken thousands of sortis and made Aircraft Carriers vulnerable to u-boat or ground based air units<who would gladly die for the Reich to take out a whole carrier!>

Americans are leary of losses. Aside from the Civil War their most costly<with 600k killed?> overall US death roll is relatively low. Considering her late entry, and the fact that much of support was with equipment and finances though the death rate is hard to truly be a indication of involvement. Germany was in a bad situation due to the leadership not wanting to surrender. The harsh treatment of Red troops<so that most German POWs on the Eastern Front didn't make it home> By far I would say that Russia lost the most. Although Germany a close second. Hardly a big deal considering she is responsible for much of her own pain. Had the War carried on say 2 to 3 years<without the loss of the 6th Army at Stalingrad and with total German dedication in the MidEast. With a major front say from N.Africa-Spain-France with many more US combatants maybe faced death including India and Australia-S.Africa being a pipeline to prevent Axis forces meeting up as their plans were I believe it's true that the Branch of the U-boat Kriegsmarine lost the most men percentage wise

Well, I don't believe France went out of their way to help the 13 colonies, for any other reason then to repay England for the French Indian War. I also think that France's best days were the Nappy era when they were at peak of their Power and they miss their old domination of the European Continent. When the Prussians came along and bested them in th Franco-Prussian War it was all down hill from there. They'd already lost their colonies in the previous wars. Germany would come to be the big continental threat until after WW2. We helped them enough, and they have helped us enough. Relations are strained because she is a minor and still wants a say so. UK is also a minor... Really their opinion independantly means nothing, and the UN doesn't do their job. It's been proven consistently... Although America goes to places that suites it's interest, it's better off for many of the people it cleans up their corrupt and broken nations. Just if we could get the UN to take care of their own mess for a change! Like Yugoslavia!<that is a pitiful sign of their lack of organization> They need to become more active... The Arabs need to organize their own police force as well! With the inforcement of all major nations. Asia is a timebomb

I'm going to give you newbies some advice. Since I can't beat Rambo-Sweden or Terif and couldn't put Plin out I'm starting to collect enough information to know... First of all, time is of the essence.. if your allies and you suspect a SeaLion, pull out of France early<they usually pull air out too>. If you're Axis, focus 4-6 air units on France... to break through the ardenne hexes next to the Maginot Line. Fill the holes with your corps... DOW Denmark on rnd1 always and pound away for experience with both cruisers plant the sub in the one blocking hex. Don't hunt Poland down, it's a waste transfer enough forces over to take out LC during rnd2. That should prove to be no significant problem if you practice a few times with the computer. Poland will fall if you must aid with an airfleet you purchase from Plunder. Rarely, only a couple cases have I ever had Poland run away free with it. Often on rnd2 a disorganized Ally and some luck on your dice and you can begin smashing Allied forces along the LC French border<even killed a few armies here or there> After you amass 5-6 airfleets, if you don't need the extra airfleets buy Rommel. Get yourself a good Commander and put him to work for you and keep him off the paved road. In fact keep all your HQs off open territory. Forests, Mountains, City hexes provide better protection and sometimes a few hexes back is better than any. Always make sure that your units that you're striking with have max readiness...that's what's ready to fight the rest is sitting in the vehicle spawn getting lube jobs... After your done with France, move HQ and air towards Norway invasion. Strike with at least 2 armies and 1 corps to transfer in and the 2 air fleets to smoosh the oslo corps... Ignore If the Allies land to the west. Move in on Sweden and clean her up with 4-5 mixed armies landing on her coast with your Cruisers to smash up the Swedes and it shouldn't take you more than 3 rounds to kill Sweden. After that you've got an open doorway of opportunity. Depends on the date... If it took you till Fall to kill France time is against you and you must rush rush rush everything. Focus only on Jet tech. If on the other hand he retreated you can spend some time popping chits on AT, IT, and even heavy tanks. Finally adding in some LR fighters... You'll find right off that subs are extremely valuable, with an air unit in the right place, you can sink a UK BS often and they become in short supply of the Allied player is bold. <sidenote: the Eastern Front requires Axis units on it as the Axis minors come in. depending you want to keep from 4 then up to 10 there before full mobilization> Now assuming you know how to take Egypt. If no Navy is there, Drop unlimited Italian and german tranports onto into a sideways type swiping motion. I usually pick up Malta along the way for either experience for my Italian fleet or good for killing a UK fighter. Use corps and subs as recons don't waste more valuable units. keep your units in proper echelon to intercept in the sea especially... Use your wits about you and get in location to take Iraq, with a half a dozen mixed Italian-German corps...and 2-3 airfleets. At the same time move the Experienced Italian fleet back to the rock, to pound through Gibraltar before the Americans come in. You can if you like leave some air in France with a decent commander to protect your flank. Although there are a trillion schools of thought..#1 is get out of the Med now you don't need to garrison every single city there. And take Greece while you're at it...mind you all this before you DOW the Red Bear.. To invade Russia: Line em up, all HQ supported. There are a ton of ways to get in their and do damage. Best way is find what works for you in HotSeat. with 41 barbarossa campaign. I can usually take Odessa rnd1 or ensure most of the Russian armies are destroyed. Tanks though people are against them can be handy on the Eastern Front. I have found more often than not you are going to get more bang for you buck with them then corps if the Russian is disorganized. Cut him from Leningrad to the 3 mines in the south. I'd leave Smolensk until you're reorganized to face the Ruskie Reinforcement Team. From Rostov-Smolensk-Leningrad and depending on the # of Red Units calls em up... You want to have your maxed out readiness. Use your axis minors and italian corps to occuppy cities. There you go. There are players that can kill all 9 Russian armies or with LR fighters the airfleet s. of Riga as well. Can't ask for much better than that. You have to tweak your situation there... A lot depends on how well you expanded, your minor hopping. The Air is used to kill the everexpansive Russian Corp industry. You have to prevent him from locking you down. Bogging you down. You gotta move city to city cut his resources... The Americans and the UK will have the air and naval supremacy and you can decide to switch over and delay them... Though if you want to win primary goal is to push through the ruskies and slow the Allies... A lot is dependant about tech Make sure that by 41 Barbarossa you've got 3-4 chits on Jets!

I'm against the purposal as well. It's only happened to me once successfully and if the Allies are that lucky it's no different than when the German's are as lucky with taking Poland out in 1 turn. A good German Player should be able to relocate his troops back and still take out France-Britian.. even though it's somewhat of a gambit. You could call many other things a gambit too that are not noteworthy to rule over in otherwards too many rules makes for a dull game

don't bother to play SC for Napoleonic Wars? Nah, play EU2 for that!!! Europa Unversalis. Ultimate Nappy ambition scenario

Oh and if anyone has an argument about that ask 1000 History Proffessors and 1000 Rocket Scientists I think that on the Italy Russia part I'll get a 99% confirmationa that it would be impossible for them to push Jets without Allies giving it to them. Also EXTREMELY difficult for any nation besides germany to man more than a few thousand until '42 or '43

Personally to gain jet technology would've been a LEAP AND BOUND for all Axis or Allied nations. Almost impossible for Russia and Italy to implement on the level this game potrays. Make the jump from level3 to level4 jet tech impossible for those nations. Make the percentages extremely difficult for the US and a lot harder for Germany and UK. And get rid of Stealth Bombers, B1s B2s in a 1940 war sim.

The fact of gas is it's useful at first. I'm sure pre-war plans were made for the eventual use in a full scale conflict of the kind of WW1. Perhaps a lot of people thought in WW1 Gas would be the turn to get rid of trench warfare. In WW2 trenchwarfare was unusual. So using mass quantities of it against soldiers who could equip themselves against the worst kinds of gas and most profilic available at the time would be counterproductive if you in turn had to do the same for your own troops landing you right back into the square should you execute POWs or not... Well Hitler considered Jews less than human as well Gypsies and many Slavic races so Cyclon B wouldn't count in that case. It would be like using Rat Poison in his eyes likely. Whatever the thinking, the Japanese would likely use anything at their disposal to gain a victory. The Germans probably though that the rest of the World partly agreed with them about Slavic, Jewish, Gypsy races and didn't see that as being a huge WarCrime factor. Even the hellish war committed against the Russians who were Communists and would soon be facing a weapon far greater than Gas, Nukes... Which either side would've used... As far as dropping it on the British Public towards the end as a payback for the firebombing. I think packaging in the rockets would've been a difficult job. Supposedly Germans had plans to dirty bomb NYC with a Gotha bomber filled with radiated junk. Would any or all of this ever been done? We could've done the same in retalation... So perhaps unbeknownst to us there were some in the German High Command that stamped out those projects from ever being pushed forward. They had family all over the country too, in the end they're just people and who knows exactly what they fought they'd face. I hear many of them felt they'd get away with much of it by pretending to Findilize to West towards War end.

It's excessive to stop amphibious landing into Riga in exchange for getting rid of the RomeGambit... If the Gambit was never found would it be introduced? Also as you cannot DOW the USA which is Ahistorical. She wasn't going to DOW unless very pushed... Why should the Allies get to DOW Italy at all? She doesn't collect any MPP for the first round and is in a particularly weak position.

A few questions about strategic bombing and target preference. Do you think that at times it's better to leave a city open rather than garisoning a corps in it when being bombed to utter death? With coastal bombardment as well which sometimes can inflict damage without land units in the designated City. What comes out more cost effective with Experience gained and damage done to the enemy? Entrenchment is a big issue Many players don't use it in key cities. Do most believe it is a of HUGE importance in key cities like Brussels and Paris?