manchildstein (ii)

i think there are some scenarios already out there having to do with this... it's certainly on my 'to-do' list... and yes it was called 'spring awakening'... the book, 'men of steel' by reynolds has a section on it...

from the asl vehicle notes: "3. T-50: This Maly Klim was an infantry support tank somewhat resembling a midget T-34, and was intended as a replacement for the T-26 series. Only 63 were built, as they were found to be very cost-ineffective compared to the T-34. All were used in a single brigade on the Finnish front." "5. T-70: Another attempt to create the right combination of firepower, mobility, and protection in a light tank. However, by this time it was seen that the T-34 could do anything the T-70 could, and a lot more that the T-70 couldn't. So with ever increasing numbers of T-34 tanks obviating the need for light tanks, the T-70 was withdrawm from tank brigades in early 1944 (although it remained in use with other formation and Soviet allied forces). More than 8,200 T-70 were built."

Eric Norseth, thanks for the review... i will definitely take your feedback into consideration when revisiting the design of this for 'version 2'

this matches my observations... i think that - in the game at least - the kv2 does have a fairly fast turret... i learned this whilst circling one of them at about 20-30 meters with pz1 and pz2 tanks... ...of the 1941 kills, as someone else mentioned, keep in mind that a 'hit' isn't necessarily a 'hit' with these 'bad boys'... in other words, the 152mm HE can kill without actually hitting...

quick... is this from a battalion attached to lssah or is it organic?

i did a scenario, 'dubno: suburban factory' based upon one of those maps... and my next project is going to be 'alytus bridgehead,' based upon the exploits of the 7th (and 20th?) panzer divisions in the early going on the smolensk axis... i think it was the nieman river crossing at alytus... in the meantime i'm tweaking some previous scenarios to make them 'better'

for information about the start of the campaign, check http://www.freeport-tech.com under 'index' then 'germany' you will see some very interesting links... you can get an idea about what kind of support units were organic to the divisions and regiments at the time... some of the armored divisions even list their attached sig/33 'companies' (6 sig/33)... there were 6 such 'companies' spread out over 20 divisions (in other words only 6 of 20 had them)... among other things there are also some details on attached vehicular AA as well

i was wondering what would have happened if one of the players had concentrated everything on a single flank and then tried to 'roll' the other player... my main observation other than this was the unfortunate and perhaps premature demise of the KV1s, already noted by para....

once, in a cmbo battle my opponent and i had decided upon a map designed in the editor. to avoid looking at each other's units we bought forces as reinforcements and designated areas where we could place our reinforcement markers... each side received their units on turn 2... the objective was a hill in the center of the board... so in my arrival zone on the backside of the hill, i had about 25 kubelwagens with about a dozen each of 75mm recoilless and 20mm flak... so it gets to turn 2 and i make a beeline for the hilltop... i should have brought those flaks on without transport, because like clockwork on turn 2, 'jabos' hit my 'column' and blast it to smithereens... needless to say, my friend made all kinds of screen captures of the action from his view and sent them to me in email (he could see the smoke rising from all of the smashed vehicles)... at the same time i was resigning from the field... to this day we both get a good laugh out of it... so when going against the wiliest, gamiest, no-holds-barred opponents... has your own GGHW?

toward odessa: mech detachment eftimiu i have plans to 'tweak' all of them but one you should probably avoid in its current incarnation is 'hill 267-9'... i mean of all of them, that one has the longest 'turn calculation times' (TCTs) whilst giving me the biggest 'whupping'

i liked the soviet 8th mechanized in june of '41 http://www.battlefield.ru/t34_76_3.html http://fisherts.home.mindspring.com/skirmishcampaigns/ukraine/sample.htm http://www.battlefield.ru/t35.html

for the newbies: you can do this with guns too [ January 17, 2003, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: manchildstein II ]

i've been downloading 1 or 2 at a time with the thought of playing them then reviewing them. i look for scenarios against the ai which haven't been reviewed yet. if a cd-scenario gets a lot of reviews, i might play that and contribute yet another review...

my main problem with what el-cid was doing was that he was only taking the highly reviewed scenarios... in reality, some perhaps 'so-so' scenarios get high reviews... some 'good' scenarios get 'bad' reviews... and many scenarios - 'good' or 'bad' - get no reviews... i think that the idea of linking to each scenario individually was a good one... it might have taken some extra work but it was doable... it's possible that if he had linked to each individual scenario, that he may not have ruffled any feathers...

i would guess that an atr could take out a hetzer from the side/rear... seeing as how .50 cals were able to achieve this in cmbo... but the point is well taken... when facing 'turretless tanks' you want to get them in a position where they're facing the wrong way

it depends on your opponent... you might want to ask them beforehand...

maybe they went fanatical you could respond in a couple of ways: mark down this player as a 'win at all costs - no holds barred' type and in the future use the same sorts of tactics on him or don't play him any more sometimes the 'no holds barred' style is kind of fun... especially if both players are aware of it from the 'get go'

--And I still think the kill from 700 meters by a 75mm gun was miraculous...I've seen a JS2 take three hits on the front armor from a Tiger at 120 meters with no more effect than to scratch the paint. -- is there any chance that, against the tigers you were playing with a later model js2 and against the stug you were using an earlier model one?

repeat from edited first message ok... i hopefully have a better pic url: http://peter_panzer.tripod.com the first pic of the 2nd aar is the one with the 'big picture' caption

rematch: this time i narrow my front by changing the default setup; all AFVs are on the left behind the berm... from there they will break out into the open plain between the road and the rail. I. company will push the road ditch and II. company and the heavy company will push the center with 1 platoon, the HMG section and the pioneers in the left ditch and 2 platoons in the right ditch.... the 105mm and 37mm guns are in the right ditch, behind the infantry. the right side is empty... experience has shown that advancing over that low, soft ground/marsh is very expensive. to open up i lose 3 of 4 halftracks to a soviet 120mm mortar barrage. the infantry moves forward in the center and on the left, up through the ditches. the armor leapfrogs over itself in the middle plain, trying to 'get a bead' on just where it can be seen and where it cannot as it passes around the hillside going up to the left (north). early on they spot a soviet t34 by the church and dispatch it under a hail of fire. eventually though both they and the I. company in the ditch to their left by the road come into view of a substantial portion of the soviet defenses, including many t34 tanks and a KV2. the infantry continues to push forward as their 4 HMGs set up at the 'corner' of the ditch and fire at whatever they can find. meanwhile they're being 'harassed' by the KV2 and other AFVs... over the course of the scenario, several more T34s are knocked out... 6 in all... 3 by the church and 3 more in the nearest dry streambed running n/s from the road to the church... some armor and the 37mm AA vehicles are transferred to the area of the rail track... i've lost several AFVs already, but no stugs... mostly 37mm AA and pz jg 1s... i've got 20mm cars along the train tracks and the whole of my remaining armored force hunts forward on the plain but just north (to the left of) the train track cut... this is where they first come across multiple t34s at range (1500+ meters) and the KV2. they back off from this 'disaster' after losing about 3 more pz jg 1... i still have 5 stugs but only 3 pz jg and a couple of 37mm AA... there is still a platoon of 20mm cars in the ditches by the track... 3 mg cars wait up on the left, out of soviet los... the 1. company comes under fire from the weather station... they return fire, combined with first some 150mm oba, then some 105mm oba... the 37mm at and 105mm artillery pieces have proven to be nearly useless as they're in the ditches by the tracks and no targets are presented. any guns out of that group which do find targets are more often than not knocked out in the ensuing dual with the soviets... i try moving all of the guns 37 and 105 - across the train tracks to the left-side ditch... the idea is to then push them out onto the plains where they might engage in some long-range fire with the soviet tanks... but i know that this is just a pipe dream because if they are to expose themselves to soviet armor, they will be hit at the same time by a fusilade from multiple soviet gun - 45mm at and 76 art - pieces.. meanwhile the infantry has pushed up the tracks and have taken the flag by the church (ruins) on the right and have turned the corner and taken the flag by the rail bridge on the left. there they knocked out a 76mm gun and maxim... one last soviet t34 is on the opposite (south) side of the bridge but it appears to have its gun knocked out as it backs away from the approaching infantry without firing a shot... i've lost a couple of armored cars on the right side of the rail to guns from the weather station... there is still a platoon of 20mm 8-wheelers 'tucked in' on the left... in destroying the gun/mg by the bridge a mg car (psw 221) was instrumental in the final stages... it overran the soviet positions whilst the infantry squads were 'duking it out' with them at a range of about 40 meters... i get the bright idea to send the 221 ahead across the 'streambed' and into the ditch on the opposite side... it gets there without incident... meanwhile... since the afvs were bushwacked in the open plains the 5 stugs are in the ditch on the left side of the rail now... there is 1 37mm aa, and 1 20mm aa vehicle there too... and the 3 20mm cars... so i send the 3 20mm cars across to where the 221 is and eventually have 4 cars over there... and no incident... i'm thinking this must be a 'blind spot' in the defense so i send 1 20mm car way ahead, almost up to the town to check things out... suddenly it gets very ugly and that leading car explodes under some kind of unidentified fire... within a turn or 2 all 3 20mm cars in the ditch are wiped out... 2 in flames... and none of the sources of incoming fire are identified... there were a lot of 'ping ping' bullet sounds, and the sounds of both 45mm and 76mm guns going off, but the actual sources of the fire were not identified... so while the 221 sits there waiting to get picked off i figure my infantry might have a better chance so i send the remnants of the pioneer and recon platoon ahead... the other 2 platoons are around the church... a squad or 2 are in the ruins... but i have to say that the past 10 turns or so... the ones involving the 'turn' in the train track and the push forward to the church and bridge area from there... well those units have been under constant fire from soviet guns and t34s and the kv2... the kv2 itself is simply sitting back and swinging its gun to and fro, picking off some of I. company 'above' by the road, then 'below' by the bridge/church... i run the 5 stugs forward along the ditch... it seems like the most covered route, and the only los the far t34s and the kv2 and guns seems to have at it are right at the 'corner'... my hopes are realized when all stugs pass through the corner, and into the streambed... 4 turn left and 1 goes forward to just behind the infantry and the dead (now 4 of them) armored cars in the ditch... the 2 platoons around the church are spent and will stay hunkered down for the remainder of the scenario... it is about turn 55... 4 stugs make their way upward to the left along that first streambed... a platoon of t34s comes charging forward from the next streambed to the east, along the open ground... i forgot about 1 pzjg1 also dying in the ditch by the armored cars... speaking of pzjg1s, the last 2 are just back from where the whole group of AFVs was earlier bushwhacked... they see the t34s charging the ditch with the stugs and they are able to get a bead on one of the 3 tanks, and they kill it... they also managed to kill an armored car which came out of the near ditch/streambed... so the stugs have 2 t34s to deal with... one of them is in the trench by now... further up and out of los... the 2nd plays cat and mouse with the pzjg1s in the background... 1 stug tries to hunt 'over the top' at the t34 in the open, but it gets seen by 2 guns and the t34 before retreating back... 1 of the guns was in the 'weather station' and 1 was in the town... it was surrounded by los lines... so the 4 stugs can't seem to easily hunt the t34 in the open, so they go after the one in the ditch... there they come into los - 3 of them at once - with that one and dispatch it... so there is just the one in the open in front of them... as the stugs push northward (left) and up the hill through the streambed/ditch they realize that they can be seen from several angles at once... apparently the ditch doesn't provide good cover after a certain point... too late... within about 2 turns i've lost 4 of 5 stugs... the one down by the bridge bit it... so there is just 1 stug left and it has just 1 ap round... the t34 in the open suddenly dashes downward diagonally toward the bridge... the stug is able to hunt it from the side and 'nail' it with the last round... by now it is about turn 71 and my FOs are just about out of ammo... they've riddled the hilltop weather station with 105mm ammo, and the area around the KV2 looks like a moonscape... yet the thing continues to belch forth the fire... in the ditch past the bridge, not only are there 4 dead cars, but the stug, pzjg1, and a 37mm aa vehicle... the pioneers and infantry making the 'left of the railroad' push begin to sneak back toward the bridge when some fires in the brush rage out of control... for the rest of the scenario about 3 or 4 squads stuck east of the fires will wait it out under a hail of soviet rifle, mg, t34, armored car, and 45mm and 76mm gunfire... in the ditch by the road, I. company has made a valiant push but they have also fairly disintegrated under soviet fire from all directions... the HMGs bring up the rear... the 50mm mortars hide, out of ammo all... some squads sneak and push their way forward, to the 'top' of the ditch where the stugs attacked from below earlier... 1 HMG and section HQ have camped out on the lower flag, but the upper one is contested by an immobilized soviet mg armored car... squads... platoon hqs... they attack the car piecemeal but are themselves eliminated in the process... the game ends after turn 74 with a 'minor defeat' this time i took out 8 t34s, and damaged the gun on a 9th... i also destroyed 2 armored cars and a tankette... on the other hand, the KV2 alone caused 61 casualties and knocked out 2 mortars and 2 guns... i will try to post some late-game screenshots, and re-post screenshots from the earlier contest.. if/when i can find a free site which doesn't shrink the pictures... look in the future for nogai steppe 2.0; i've determined that the armored cars are not useful in a scenario map like this, so the german force is being revamped in the hopes that it will actually be able to contest the town and some of the other 'rearmost' (eastward) objectives... as it is, this version 1.0 is playable but very difficult, at least for a player of my skill level... i know i could have done better with those stugs though... if i hadn't gotten carried away with them, all 5 might have survived and i might have gotten 40-some points instead of 37... the key to this or the 2.0 version is the same... find a center of gravity or a focus to the attack... obviously i got a lot further this time by abandoning the 'flanks' and pushing the 'center'.... i tried another try at this 1.0 version, this time putting all AFVs and 105mm and 37mm guns to the far left, where they could all see out over the left side of the map... after about 3 turns i had eliminated 3 t34s but had lost 3 105mm guns and several pzjg1s... so it's probably best after all to ignore this side of the map... the 105mm guns are supposed to be key to version 1.0 of this scenario, but in 3 tries i have yet to find a way to get them into significant action without them getting killed instead...

when i choose units in cmbb, the experience level represents their 'anticipated performance' in a scenario, rather than "where they've already been or what they've already done"... ...for example there was that interesting discussion about how green troops were hystorically more willing to take risks than 'veteran' troops... so when i purchase 'crack' units in an hystorical representation, they may very well have been 'green' in the actual battle, but their 'real life' performance warrants their being represented by 'crack' in cmbb... until we have a multi-tiered experience rating - say one which covers training, actual experience, willingness to take risks ('gun-shyness'), etc., we have to tweak the cmbb system as it stands to get the 'results' we want... of course the existence of 'fanatical' ratings and 'fit or unfit' helps us in cmbb... in tailoring the troops to perform the way we 'want them to...' but nonetheless there is that school of thought about cmbb in which 'conscript to elite' are just labels to be used in trying to emulate a certain 'performance level'... i'm wondering something about soviet success on the ladders... is any of it due to the cheap 25mm AA, 45mm AT, or 76mm regimental artillery (76.2 L/17)... ?

i'm all 'jaegermeistered out'...

i find that i throw the kitchen sink at t34s... shoot every available gun, combined with moving units up for close range and flank shots.... so it seems fairly 'hystorical' to me, even with the - i would consider reasonably minor - flaws listed in this thread... perhaps in the current game engine, the idea of giving t34s a bit better 'defensive angle' on their turrets is not a bad one though... i suppose that in the engine rewrite 'all' of the turret surfaces and sizes will be modelled, so it will be even more 'realistic' than it is now... but for now it appears to be a pretty good 'abstraction'...

redwolf, i'll take your word for it that 'fast' is better than 'move' for not bogging. i've bogged tanks with either type of 'move' so if you've been testing this i won't argue. i think that the point here might be that it was an elephant immobilization which seems to have spawned this thread. my recommendation in that case would be to go with jadgpanthers instead of elephants. in any case it is good to hear that there will be less bogging of heavies in 1.02... to answer the question posed in the thread title, i don't think luck counts as much as skill overall. luck counts more in certain situations, but overall skill is king. i believe - as with others who have posted on this one - that there is actually more skill needed in cmbb than there is in cmbo.