manchildstein (ii)

Short AAR/Spoiler: . . . . . . . . . . . . . I revisited this one last night and wanted to post a few comments. Just in case you've downloaded and played this one and lost, don't feel bad. I'm the designer and managed just a 20-80 defeat. Don't get me wrong though; even in such defeat I enjoy playing this game. That said, I managed to inflict about 5:1 casualties on the Soviets. I started with the default infantry setup, but took all of the AFVs and placed them on the far right, then in the opening turns I moved everything up through the "collective farm." The 47mm AT guns were place in scattered trees near the bend in the road just outside of town. The 40mm Bofors and supporting HMGs were left in default. On turn 1, as the infantry and AFVs began their movement through the farm, 1 of the Bofors caught immediate sight on the KV-2 in the town intersection, and must have 'got the jump' on the beast. Apparently as a result of early fire from the Bofors, the KV-2 never fired a shot. It sat there for a couple of turns then began reversing into the soft ground by the church. The attack through the farm made good progress, and the AFVs managed to take out a number of guns on the hillside at the 'back' of the board. Any Soviet infantry in the path of my combined force simply melted away. At some point, even though I thought the attack was going quite well, I realized that there were only 7 AFVs left with 20mm cannons. The rest were knocked out or abandoned. Even though 7 or 8 BT tanks were destroyed just to my left (W) of the town, more appeared in the distance. The infantry closed with the intersection, and the remaining 20mm AFVs crossed the street out into the flat just to the west of the road running north/south into town; before that though they pelted the KV2 with numerous shots, forcing the thing back into the scattered woods behind the soft ground by the church. Those were tense moments as a single shot from the 152mm gun of the KV could have killed multiple Toldis/Csabas. I'd been playing with detailed armored hits off all game so I was not yet aware that the KV's guns was disabled. So after the KV retreated and the remaining 20mm AFVs had crossed the road, there they got into a nasty fight with the remaining BTs. Throughout the battle the Bofors and 47mm AT guns racked up their share of kills, and kept the remaining BTs from advancing into their kill zones. The main kill zone was the area just west of the road where my own AFVs had moved into. Anyway, this battle really seems to favor the AI as the first batch of 10 flags is far enough behind (north of) the road intersection that friendly Axis units cannot seem to affect their control from the south side of the road. This meant that I sent a platoon running across the road and toward the scattered trees where, in addition to the KV there were assorted (I assumed) broken Soviet infantry units. Those squads were stopped short, in the open by a 76mm Soviet gun. After they began retreating, broken and casualty-laden, I tried another approach with another platoon. Soviet fire had died down a bit more so I used the covered (brush) approach to some abandoned Soviet foxholes at the intersection proper and rushed a platoon there. 3 squads crossed the n-s road to the west side and occupied some foxholes just off (south of) the intersection while their platoon hq occupied a foxhole on the east side of the road, again just south of the intersection. By then it was about turn 23 out of 30+ and I didn't figure much more progress could be made. The church was on fire and I was down to about 2 or 3 operating Toldis. 4 tankettes continued to sit - on the 'other side of the map' - about the buildings on the right. This was all of the armor I had left. Aside from the platoon I foolishly sacrificed to the 76mm gun in the open, most of my infantry was in fairly good shape. Still, the positioning of the flags meant more movement through the open, and there were still guns on the hill active, and BTs on the far left with apparent LOS/LOF into the intersection. Interestingly, the 81mm FO called in fire a few times, and the first two times the barrage was 'way off' target. I mean 200-300 meters away! I was lucky the shells didn't fall on my own guys. 'Finally' I moved the FO up into LOS of the church, and the barrage around there was accurate. It was what caused the fire in the church. I figured I'd lost the battle 'on paper' with my failure to control any of the flags. I also figured that in 'real life' some kind of reinforcements - either heavy artillery or a series of airstrikes or even the appearance of a reinforcement infantry battalion - would have been necessary to have given my forces the leverage to have gotten across the road, then onto the hill proper. In looking at the map after the turn 23 cease-fire: As it turned out, the platoon just south of the intersection kept possession of about 8 or 9 of the 10 flags by the church from the Soviets... they were contested instead. I could see 1 or 2 of them in the mix that were Soviet red though. Of course the 10 flags on the hill were solidly in Soviet hands. There were still 8 or 10 BTs operating on the left (west). A couple of 25mm AA guns were sitting on the hillside but were completely out of ammo. As for the 'star' of the battle. I fink it was a witto MG tankette with 11 infantry 'kills.' Anyway, I just wanted to post this one as encouragement to Tracer and anyone else who may have played this battle; I find it is a tough one. Score: Designer 20 AI 80

isn't the german mauser the same round as the mg42?... i thought they used the same cartridge for both their rifles and mgs...

windows users: when in the scenario editor main menu, i hit ctrl-esc (or the windows key) and then 'r' for 'run', then type in 'notepad' and hit 'enter' (then alt-space, x for full screen)... then i type in the briefing(s) and save in a directory (folder) i'm familiar with... then alt-tab (sometimes have to hit multiple times, depending upon how many apps are loaded) 'back in' to the cmbb editor main menu... then i click 'load briefings' and 'point' the 'dialog box' to the directory where i just saved the 'briefings,' then load them... if i then - in modifying or testing the scenario or whatever - see the need to change the briefings, i repeat the above until (most all of) the errors and inconsistencies are ironed out... so basically it's an exercise in ctrl-esc (or window key) and/or alt-tab... getting everyfink (close to) 'just right'

is that about as potent as 30.06?</font>

...and if he's 'wired' he will tire very easily... so just use them from a stationary position as pre-planned bombardment or with trps... if you want to represent an FO 'on the move' then choose from the (radio) types which are offered...

is that about as potent as 30.06?

yes i was blathering on about what kind of woods might have been in that area... went with a combo of scattered trees and woods... however realistic the thing (road to dvinsk) might actually be, it is a very 'fun' fight...

--There, between our tank and the next one, a Sergeant was running in circles and screaming like a banshee, holding his rear end and hollering until he finally collapsed. Don’t forget, there still was sporadic Russian rifle fire. Somebody from this squad dragged him behind our tank and we finally found out what happened. His steel helmet had received a direct hit; the steel had been pierced, but the bullet had lost almost all its speed and had traveled INSIDE THE HELMET to the rear of his head, exited, went along the spine and lodged, hotter than hell, right between his cheeks where it sizzled to a standstill. Trust me: never in the rest of my life did I hear such unearthly screaming. -- hystorical fiction (my guess)

If you are interested in the Anschluss, the interwar period, linguistics, the holocaust, or the German diplomatic record -- all of the issues listed in your post -- then Carell's books are of no value. That is because Carell deals with none of these issues. But if you are interested in combat on the Eastern Front (as I would think most players of CMBB would be), then Carell's books are quite valuable.</font>

to start with... thanks again to everyone who commented on the 'pskov' thread... hopefully the force here is 'semi-historical' (semi-hysterical?)... Play as Germans against Soviet AI, Default Setup June, 1941 47+ Turns Map: 2k by 1360m Approx 3500 points per side Fanatical Soviet Mixed Force Crack Axis Mech Force Day, Damp Ground, Warm and Clear weather, Breeze out of NW 10 Small, 7 Large Flags In the opening days of Operation Barbarossa the German Panzer Spearheads plunge headlong into the Soviet hinterlands. One such unit is the 8th Panzer Division on the Road to Dvinsk which is itself on the Dvina river. As the Division's 10th Panzer Regiment and 8th Motorized/Mechanized Infantry Brigade (28th and 8th Regiments) are momentarily tied up elsehwere, the 59th Recon Battalion is tasked with taking the town of Divina on the approaches to the Dubissa Gorge, itself the last natural obstacle before Dvinsk on the Dvina river. Once this area is cleared of Soviet resistance then the thrust to Dvinsk/Dvina proper can take place. By then the 10th Panzer Regiment and the 8th "Mechanized" Brigade should be available for the main thrust. Over the past couple of days aerial recon has shown a fairly substantial Soviet presence in and about the "town of Divina." Aerial photos show potential Soviet positions, which are marked by flags on the scenario mapboard. It appears as though some work crews have cleared LOS/LOF through the woods from the top of the hill - the Command Post - to the town and sections of the road below. As for the road itself: In reality it is not much more than a sandy track through the trees and swampy ground. But not 2 clicks beyond this mapboard is an intact, apparently undefended bridge over the Dubissa. The Soviets have decided to make their stand here before the gorge, with the benefit of the hill position overlooking the road. In any event your Battalion is the only unit available in this sector, and the Soviets must be dislodged without further ado. For some "starch," Corps has managed to provide you with a 105mm FO and a Light Tank Company. As for Soviet opposition; expect infantry, tanks, and guns, backed by fortifications and minefields. If you can sweep through this area in good time, this "Road to Dvinsk" will be clear for the main body of the 56th Panzer Corps. Your force is made up of: Battalion HQ Motorized Recon Company(18 LMG, 2 HMG, 3 50mm Mortar) Motorized Heavy Company(3 LMG, 3 FT (Pioneer), 2 75mm sIG, 3 37mm AT, 1 LMG) Attached: 1 105mm FO, 2 Sharpshooter Combined Armored Car Company and Light AC Platoon: 10 4-Wheeled (MG) 6 8-Wheeled (20mm) 4 4-Wheeled (20mm) Corps Light Tank Company: 15 Panzer IIC (3 Platoon x 5) 3 Panzer IIIH Your trucks and motorcycles have debarked their troops and are now away from the immediate area. The infantry platoons move forward amidst the the awaiting AFVs and the 37mm, 75mm, and HMGs scramble to quickly get into some kind of decent overwatch positions. In the default setup, the Pioneer FTs are riding on a platoon of PZ IIs; same with the Pioneer CoCo. Thoughts: 1) The Panzer IIIs and the 105mm FO are the backbone of this KG. 2) The PZ IIIs are the only vehicles with any kind of decent ammo loadout. If you can keep them operational they should be able to provide direct HE support for the duration of the scenario. The PZ IIs and Armored Cars on the other hand will probably run out of ammo during any kind of heavy engagement. 3) You could attack the town whilst bombarding the hill with pre-planned 105, or vice versa. 4) You can make good use of the 37mm ATs and 75mm IGs if you move them into good firing positions. 5) The 20mm guns on the PZ IIs and Armored Cars are capable of destroying all Soviet AFVs except for the T-34 and KV series. 6) As always, the key is in having more firepower at the point of contact, whenever and wherever contact is made. 7) It should be possible to get a draw, even if you fail to take both the town and the hill within the allotted time. 8) Your setup zone has been swept of Soviet snipers. 9) Your infantry platoons are well-stocked with demo charges, molotovs, and rifle grenades.

This sounds more like it - if 8th PD was operating divison level Kampfgruppen along these lines then you can have a much more 'interesting' force in the scenario than a bunch of armoured cars trying to assault entrenched positions! Cheers Martin</font>

--It is possible that they may be supported by a detachment from the panzer regiment, but the Germans weren't keen on splitting their panzer battalions up.-- ok... that makes sense... thanks for the 'lowdown' on the armored car company composition... 2 platoons of 6... i was going with 4 platoons of 4... there was apparently also a light armored car platoon... thus the mg armored cars i was going to include... i will have to go back and re-think this... i have read somewhere that the german recon would fight... but maybe this action is too much for them... although if i made it all recon with no tanks (more infantry) they might be able to handle it... especially with some 105mm fos... ...as for the 37mm halftracks... i'd thought i'd seen them in an order of battle, but upon review it looks like there were 3, towed 37mm guns to the recon battalion... anyway, thanks for 'keeping me honest'... [ December 04, 2002, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: manchildstein II ]

with low caliber guns i consider it a success if they manage to expend all of their he against non-vehicular targets before themselves being knocked out or abandoned... as for setup against vehicles, you want to set them up to where they can get a close-range side shot... if you have 4 or more of them you want to put them in a position to all be firing at once... even when they fail to penetrate, a 'fusilade' of light antitank fire might cause the target vehicle to be abandoned... another way to use light antitank is to give them long, but very limited (narrow) fields of fire... 'keyholing' them... this way they don't themselves get 'fusiladed' upon discovery by enemy units....

what i'm currently testing is a scenario where the germans are clearing a stretch of road on the way to the 'dubissa gorge'... there's a hill called the 'observation post' and 'over the past couple of days aerial recon has spotted soviet work crews clearing los pathways from the OP to sections of the road below...' ... the 'clearings' are represented by 'rough' tiles... most everything else is a combination of scattered trees, woods, and marsh... there is a small town called 'divina'... anyway, the force includes 'elements from the divisional "recon" battalion and a company of PZ IVs.. so there are 10 PZ IV 5 PZ II 4 37mm Halftrack 5 MG Armored Car 8 Light Armored Car 6 8-Wheeled AC 1 Motorized Recon Company it's 60 turns so i'm not sure how the armored cars and such will hold up with their low ammo loadouts... those 37mm halftracks have got to be one of my favorite vehicles... such a high loadout... ...in light of the above... might tweak and remove the pz IIs for some PZ Is instead... oh, the area is 'defended by whatever the soviets could scrape together... tanks... guns... infantry... did i say heavy tanks?'... it should be a 'blast' but i must say that 4 turns into it on the current test... it could be a real bugbear... already lost an armored car to a gun on the 'op' hill... didn't fink they could see _that_ far... the way the road is set up... it's very difficult for any of the vehicles to wander far from it...so it's a 'vehicle-heavy' battle with 'vehicle-unfriendly terrain'... (damp conditions)... i guess it calls for 'tactical subtlety'... anyway... these units haven't even reached the gorge yet so the brandenburg chaps are out of the picture for this one... i'll post a real briefing after some more testing...

interesting... sounds like a bug... hopefully there is some kind of workaround... [ December 03, 2002, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: manchildstein II ]

i fink it was a vril manipulation weapon (vmw)...

i wonder how much of this has to do with the old squad leader? in that game the is tanks were used to slug it out with panzers... until i started to hang out on these battlefront forums, i had no idea that the is tanks were mainly anti-personnel...

ok... thanks everyone... does anyone know if this site: http://www.freeport-tech.com/wwii has anything approaching accurate oobs? i might have asked this already, but were the early model (75mm 'short') PZ IV tanks considered 'medium' or 'heavy?' as for the terrain, it would be 'cool' if we had a 'pine and deciduous mixed' tile in the editor, but for now i fink i'll go with mostly scattered trees, regular woods, and a 'smattering' of pine tiles... i found some photos of 'das reich in the north' and there were thick patches of birch in the background.... finally, from the replies i received it looks as though PZ IVs can be include and the scenario will be 'historically' (hysterically?) accurate... thanks again

i could not find this in the manual... when sewer movement is allowed in the parameters of the scenario editor, are the sewers then somehow able to be programmed in the map editor or are they generic in that the game engine handles them solely during play of the given scenario? thanks in advance

i've seen troops line up along the north or south... but it may be that i'm setting all 4 edges... for example w/n to axis and s/e to allied... i wasn't really paying attention... but for whatever it is worth i hope this helps...

ok... i seem to have more facts straight this time... as the 8th panzer moved through/past the dubissa gorge to dvinsk on the dvina, were the forests at all pine, or were they "deciduous?" or were they mixed... as for the stugs in the brandenburg regiment... i've nixed those... have some 'cool' afvs lined up though... thanks in advance for any feedback...

i searched some more and found out that the commander of the 8th panzer at the time was "brandenberger"... i wonder if the "brandenberg regiment" was the 8th's... anyway... i'll figure out something for this scenario...

arghh... i meant dvinsk and not pskov... anyone know about pine versus non-pine forests around there?...

ok, thanks how about the terrain? i was looking at your page and saw something about 'birch forest' in that area... do you figure there were any 'pine forest tiles' on the 'road to pskov?'

oops... nevermind...uhhh ... where's my coffee?...