manchildstein (ii)

now to be fair to the ai, i believe that sometimes it will fire that tungsten round, and sometimes it will continue forward into cover... so it isn't 100% wrong... one thing i've noticed... and i'm not sure it was in cmbo... is that sometimes a tank will take off like a veritable rocket on the attack... maybe that's just fanaticism... by the way has anyone tested a single elite stug B against 18 conscript-green-regular t34s yet?

i think 'makes the jelly judder' may have given us the needed information by the way, the scenarios described here would all be playable on my duron 1200 with 512mb ram and 64mb onboard (shared) sis video chipset... my cmbb maximum so is 2x3 km, 1 german battalion, 2 soviet battalions, about 70 or 80 afvs per side... takes awhile but is somewhat playable... the lagging cursor is a drag though...

you may be able to make some flags unoccupied, and put other flags where there are ai troops, and the ai troops will stay in place. it is not clear to me whether the ai goes after uncontrolled flags, or just flags controlled by the human player. along the same lines, i'm not sure if ai units with 'hide' orders will go after human-controlled flags, or just stay put. the only thing i've really noticed is that, before the patch some hidden ai units in a particular scenario were all moved around after i called a ceasefire in a scenario, and this was with a flag nearby. after the patch, the same units seemed to 'stay put.' this could be a red herring though. anyway, as a rule of thumb if you hide the ai units, and put a flag nearby, they stand a better chance of staying put. i'm embarrassed to admit that i haven't researched this more. my method has basically been to put the ai into a defense, and give the ai control (none controlled by the human, none uncontrolled) over all of the flags at the start. then if i want troops to stay put, i use 'hide' on them. further, i mention in the briefing that 'earlier recon has shown enemy units in the area. their general locations are marked by victory flags.' what you could do would be to specify that the scenario be played with 'flags off' (shift-f) and then use the 'landmark' feature (ctrl-leftclick in the map editor) to indicate the 'real' scenario objectives. one thing i've done lately has been to use more small flags, so that the battle is decided more by combat losses, than by actual 'control' of the flags. it seems to me that by using 'flags off with objectives as landmarks' combined with just a few small flags to anchor the ai defense, that some really spectacular scenarios could be created versus the ai. anyway, come to think of it, when the human player takes a victory flag, i believe that 'all bets are off' as to the ai units 'staying put.' and since this is at least partially true, then it allows the designer to implement some very interesting ai counterattacks. but as i've mentioned, i really haven't researched this in depth... these are just impressions... i just kind of 'wing it' and then if something i design is enjoyable to me - win or lose - i upload it to the depot... admittedly, my scenarios are not the most heavily playtested prior to upload... for me the bottom line is this; the more time you spend in the editor the better your battles are apt to be... edit: oh, and if you're happy with your scenario that's probably the most important thing... [ January 11, 2003, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: manchildstein II ]

i've read that rough terrain tiles cause longer 'compute' times... perhaps someone who knows can chime in here and let us know definitively about craters, rough, etc. in relation to compute times

think of moving (heavy) AFVs fast in cmbb like intensive fire in squad leader... only for emergency situations...

about the artillery thing... i've seen a veteran 150mm FO call in fire, then the center of the barrage was behind the target by about 50 meters... the FO adjusted the fire forward (but only about 10 meters), but then the fire started falling off to the side by about 150 meters!... i then wondered if it has to do with LOS... the FO could see the original target, and the corrected target, but did not have LOS to the places where the fire actually fell... if this has something to do with the barrage accuracy, it appears as though only the ground-level los is taken into account and not the top height of the 'actual' explosions (which in this case i'm certain the FO would have been able to see) now i'm not arguing whether this is realistic (i don't know), only that it's another thing which isn't the same as cmbo...

playtesting against the ai with fog of war off is probably a good idea, at least some of the time. some of my 'seat of the pants' observations about playing the ai: 1) it will (counter) attack to take any flag controlled by the human player. 2) it will 'funnel' its infantry along narrow routes when it moves them; the more the infantry and the longer the distances covered, the more this becomes apparent. 3) it doesn't handle large groups of vehicles too well, although sometimes its 'pluck' or 'caginess' is admirable. 4) if you set a group of ai-controlled units to 'hide' when you're previewing the map in the editor, it appears as though they do now remain hidden during the actual play of the scenario, especially if you 'anchor' them with a flag nearby. this appears to work with infantry (haven't tried it with afvs). i don't know if this is due to my changed perception or some actual tweak which went in between version 1.0 and 1.01.

this is kind of a takeoff on the 'stugged' thread where the example of wittmann and his stug single-handedly taking out 6 of 18 t34s was brought into the discussion, which itself was more about whether the turret armor on early t34s is properly modelled in cmbb... nonetheless it is something i've been wondering about lately. i remember the 'barkmann' scenario in cmbo... the one with the 3 panthers against the u.s. armored onslaught... there were also the 'villers bocage' scenarios, depicting wittmann in a tiger... then in cmbb there is my own 'nogai steppe' which attempts to depict one of the lssah stugs in the scenario is being "wittmann's" ... an elite stug B in 1941... of course there are probably other scenarios which do this as well... to get to the point... i think that trying to portray hystorical figures in a cmbb scenario is probably a 'sub-optimal' thing to do... it may be difficult for me to explain why but i'll give it a go: say you have an 'hystorical tank ace' in 'real life' but he hasn't seen one of his famous actions yet. what is it that distinguishes him from his peers or his foes? perhaps nothing in particular. it is only after the fact of the 'famous action' that the 'tank ace' has gained his fame. in other words, he may not have been 'elite' going in but he 'fortunes of war' smiled upon he and his crew that day and thus the legend was born. what i'm trying to say is that, in cmbb it might be better to name the 'famous tank ace' AFTER the action fought and not before. in my experience, naming one's units after hystorical figures will usually lead to ahystorical outcomes. in other words, when all of the virtual dust has settled on the cmbb battlefield, one can look at the best of - say an ss stug company in 1941 - and pronounce, 'that must have been wittman' as an aside, i realized last night that 2 of the 5 stugs in the 'nogai steppe' scenario are named 'wittmann' - one 'elite' (the one i named) and one 'veteran' (an accident); then it occurred to me that another approach would be to name all 5 of them 'wittmann' and then after the battle, crown one of the 5 'the real wittmann' does this make any sense? thanks for letting me share

i don't have the game handy at the moment but is it possible to buy a separate, heavy weapons company? or even better yet, an antitank company? it seems as though, in a motorized or armored formation the antitank company would have 3 50, 8 37, and 6 lmg... in a '1st wave' infantry division it would probably have 2 50, 9 37, and 4 lmg (attached to an infantry battalion)... or 12 37 and 6 lmg (company from the divisional antitank battales)... then in the motorized formations there is the heavy weapons company attached to battalion... 3 37 (+1 lmg), pioneer platon, 2 75mm ig... if memory serves, in cmbb the heavy weapons companies are there when you purchase an entire battalion... but you were probably addressing the ability to purchase AT batteries through the support weapons 'table'... no? as for people like wittmann whose stug crews were able to hit the t34 turret ring at will, why not model this for the elite crews?... i still think that '6 of 18 t34 knocked out' ... that those were really bt tanks... grin...

'move to los of a particular unit' sounds like micromanagement... i would agree that a 'fortified move to contact' command could be added, so that instead of stopping at sound contacts, a unit only stops upon los... but into los of one unit in particular... i don't think so...

actually, i think it gets even 'worse' than that... only the 1st company of the 1st battalion in a panzer infantry regiment had spws... at least in '41... see http://www.freeport-tech.com/wwii/011_germany/41_organ_army/_41_org_army.htm for more details notice how 1st panzer has 2 armored infantry battalions... one in each 2-battalion regiment... then 2nd panzer has but the one company... not the 1st of the 1st, but one company nonetheless... then 3rd and 4th panzer have just the 1st company of the '1st battalion' then 5th has the 1st company of the '2nd battalion'... anyway you get the picture... most of the infantry in the panzer divisions were truck-bound... so the '1st of the 1st' is not as hard and fast of a rule as 'one company per division'... the one company per division seems to be the general rule for 1941... does anyone know about liebstandarte or the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th ss divisions in 1941? in the case of the above website the green color coding is not there so it looks like they were all truck-bound in these various 'motorized infantry formations'... anyway... it appears as though 1st panzer division was 'magnificently equipped' with 2 battalions out of 4 of spw infantry in june of 1941... http://www.freeport-tech.com/wwii/011_germany/41_organ_army/41_div_pz-01.html

'p33p0h' when 'loosing' a tank to bogging it should only 'steal' one's resolve... or use 38t types! seriously though... i can see why elements like bogging are randomized... and why it bothers ladder-type players... perhaps in a future version of cm, there will be a setting like 'never bog anyfink... i just can't take it!'... but for now what can anyone do? i would recommend that... if there is indeed a problem with bogging in the 1.01 version... and it is indeed 'ahystorical'... then a person should do some kind of test to prove this to battlefront's satisfaction in order that it might be patched in 1.02... myself... i'm too busy watching my 'witto' soliders 'huck tnt'... and by the way... i have twice lost two (2) is2s to bog/immoblization in jaegermeister so i can sort of feel your pain...

posted by jasonc --Intervention of T-34s in strength still held up von Kleist for several days early in the campaign. -- dubno? posted by rex_bellator --I'd just like to see a more neutral example because I'm quite suprised (as a non-grog) with the apparent ease that short 75mms used to kill T-34s, but I'm ready to accept it.-- you know... i read the same example and even partly based a scenario - nogai steppe - upon it... but began to wonder if those weren't - in actuality - bt tanks wittmann killed... because achieving that kind of success with a stug 75 short against t34s in cmbb is beyond me... a couple of thoughts/questions: i use the 'kitchen sink' method in cmbb to kill t34s... i put as many units firing at once as possible, then highlight the t34 and press 'tab' so i'm right behind it at level 2, then listen for all of the richochets and the sometime penetrations... i don't know what this really proves or anything but just had to share... question: were there really a lot more panzer IIIF and PZ IVD than PZIIIG-H and PZIVE-F at the outset of barbarossa? anyhoo, with my own 'seat of the pants' experience against t34s in cmbb in 1941-based scenarios, i would say that perhaps they're already 'too cheap' but 'too weak' might be taking it a bit far...

ok... i played it out last night... it went to turn 37... the ai stopped just as i was about to grab the large flag by the church... on the positive side my infantry platoons were without exception in decent shape or better... everything went left... there is a small barren hill there surrounded by pines and scattered trees... most all of my infantry worked its way into the scattered trees before that small hill.. some went straight for the pines on my left of that... the su152s and some su122s sat in the valley and obliterated whatever german infantry appeared in the pines on the other side of the diagonal road... the kv85flame and a half dozen or so is2s went to the left, one is2 and the kv into the scattered trees between that small hill and the pines further to the left, and 4 or 5 is2s even further left, through the scattered trees left of the pines.... infantry led the way in all cases... at some point a lone, '3-1' crewed is2 made the jaunt across the road and in so doing was penetrated by the 75mm gun over there by the building... some 'snap' shooting by an su122 in support (area target at a location next to the gun) knocked the gun out as the routed tank arrived there in the trees across the road... meanwhile 4 is2s were making their way around those pines (through the scattered trees) and came into LOS of some panthers... i used some shoot and scoot and the is running the 'gap' with the kv85 also got involved... 2 panthers knocked out with no losses... things went badly after that though as 2 more panthers appeared... a single panther knocked out 3 of the 4 is2s left of the pines in the scattered trees in a single turn... the 3-1 is2 had by then recovered, and after a shoot and scoot by the (then ruined) building by the knocked out 75mm gun... it reversed into the clear and ran even further left, then ran up through some scattered trees to try scoot and shoot from there... by then it was hit all at once by the last 2 panthers and a tiger across the way... so much for my flanking manuever... the last is2 by the pine trees on my side of the road had by then retired... the other is2 in the 'gap' between the pines and the barren hill had also been knocked out... the kv85 in the 'gap' had worked its way further around the 'front' face of the barren hill but didn't dare show itself through the scattered trees... it was simply looking for some nearby enemy infantry to hit at close range... as i said, my infantry was fairly well swarming in a line all along 'my' side of the road 'through town'... from the destroyed 75 on my left, all the way to the church... nonetheless the germans controlled the small flag on the right and the church... all of the other flags were disputed... but it was enough for me to lose 36-64... it has me thinking i should stick to playing the ai... although a lot of it does seem to depend here on a bunch of shoot and scoots... the is2, while a very good-looking tank, seems to have the flaw of a 4-man crew... i wonder if later is tanks had 5-man crews... seems kind of strange... i sure like the sound of those high-caliber, high-velocity guns going off... anyway... i was able to keep my infantry intact, and save for losing 3 tanks to 1 panther that one turn... lost only 6 afvs overall... with 2 additional bog/immobilizations... the germans in the pines on the center/right got pummelled by my assault guns and tanks all game long... the 75 on the far left accounted for 2 of my lost afvs... not too bad... infantry for the most part led this one... 'the eyes' of a force indeed...

ok... what i'm doing this 4th time is starting from the beginning. all of the afvs are moving over the left side of the ridge, there where the scattered trees have the adjacent rough terrain. all of the afvs are going into the valley there beyond that ridge. the infantry is all moving left that way too... the MGs set up in the scattered trees there over the crest of the ridge there, and the rest of the infantry is pressing forward with 'advance' commands from those scattered trees into the patch of scattered trees across the way... it's about turn 10 and i've again lost 2 is2s to bogging (even though moving instead of fasting)... but the rest of my armor is in the valley or on its way there. i've already got some infantry across the valley and in the scattered trees... the idea is to flank far enough to the left that i start picking up the victory flags from the one there at the 'back' side of the town, then work toward the right... i don't know about that far flag ... way back on the left... maybe there will be time to get that ... if... and it seems like a big if... i can win the armor battle...

yes... your units reserve the right to change their orders on the fly... this seems to almost invariably occur when they take casualties after having come under fire... at the end of the 'movie,' you can re-set their orders to something else during the next orders segment... experience shows me that... if they went to 'sneak' during the last 'fast,' they're probably going to disobey any subsequent attempt at 'fast...' so i would recommend any combination of 'advance,' 'sneak,' or 'hide' at that point...

and 'mechanized' infantry means they're in armored halftracks...

i have a copy of this saved at about turn 7 or somefink... i've lost all 3 tries from there... the first time horribly so, the 2nd time fairly close to that.. and the 3rd time i actually had 4 afvs still alive at the end... never killed more than 2 panthers... where i have it saved is where the is2s and su122s are on the ridge on the left... 2 is2s were lost in their starting positions due to bogs... anyway, the 1st and 2nd times i was shredded... the 2nd time in particular my is2s gathered in the valley beyond the ridge on the left... there by the buildings along the diagonal road by the with woods on the other side. i thought i was doing great until my tanks got taken out piecemeal by the panthers... but the 3rd time was uncanny... that was the time i made up my mind to line the diagonal road with my tanks and su122s... the kv85 and su152s went further left... anyway, the tanks and su122s on the road ... i thought they were in great position to pick of those pesky panthers at the right moment... but what happened was uncanny... my tanks and assault guns along the road decided to take out some infantry in some buildings by the intersection. when they did this, the buildings blew up and there i was... in los of three panthers all scrunched up and with los looking directly down the road... again they could only see 2 or 3 of my afvs, which they dispatched.... i was trapped... there was no place to go... the panthers just sat out there and took out everything which moved... one is2 made it over to the far left with the su152s and kv-flame... by then i was ready to cease fire... i probably need to go back and play this one from turn 1... so i can 'move' instead of 'fast' my tanks out of the woods and arrive with all of them intact... also my infantry could be manuevered better... anyway... accidentally blowing up those buildings and then being mowed down by the panthers... uncanny i tell ya...

does anyone know a good free picture posting site... the kind where someone can put their screen shots on the site, then link to a posting here?... i was trying out picturestage but those 'yay-hoos' over there automatically shrink the pictures...

i may have 'squad leader syndrome' as i play with the trees off most of the time.... if trees are on, they're on minimal i use all of the camera angles... units are at normal size except for when i'm looking for a passenger on a vehicle... then i turn vehicles off and go to max size... sometimes when taking a screen shot the units are at +1 or +2 or whatever... detailed vehicle hits are usually off...it adds to the suspense... flags are on or off depending on the situation... los and movement paths are on (shift p x3 from the default)... that is unless i need to single out a single unit for a move or fire order... sometimes i turn off the landmarks, flags, and detailed vehicle hits, then watch a vehicle at level 1 or 2 for an immersion effect...

ok... say it's 1941... both the 150mm ig and the 105 art have HE only (not counting smoke)... i've noticed that, when targeting t34s, the 105mm gives a greater chance of kill, and in practice also seems to kill better.... my theory is that... even though the 105 and the 105 are both firing HE, the 105mm's longer barrel gives it some kind of 'punch' which, against armor is greater than the loss in blast value relative to the 150... i'd first thought that the 105 would be less effective against the likes of t34s, but in practice in the game i find that the 105mm is more effective.... first of all it gets the '1st hit' sooner, and secondly it seems to kill more quickly... so even though the 150 is better against softer targets and lighter vehicles... the 105 seems to be better against t34s and such... another thing i was wondering... how come no kind of "AP" for the 105mm in 1941? didn't they have some kind of 'concrete piercing bunker busting' ammo in 'real life?' i mean.. not that i'm complaining about their HE-only performance against tanks (which is quite good) or anything...

has anyone remade 'the citadel' ?

i heard that the soviet 76, 82, and 152 were designed so they could use other peoples' ammo, but no one could use their ammo... 76 versus 75 82 versus 81 152 versus 150 so they could capture a load of say, 81mm mortar ammo and use it in their own tubes... but no one else could capture their 82mm ammo and use it in 81mm tubes... this is what some marine dude told me... said they told him that in boot camp... maybe he was just making it up...

ok... i hopefully have a better pic url: http://peter_panzer.tripod.com the first pic of the 2nd aar is the one with the 'big picture' caption setup: i choose to alter the default setup. bremer's company is taken from the right and moved to the left, up on the road where it runs n-s and turns toward the east behind the protection of the rise. the pzjagers and stugs will support that infantry company. i then take the heavy weapons company and situate it over to the right; the 37mm AT and the pioneer platoons are put over on the right in the soft ground. i also strip the other setup zones of armored cars and put the entire ac company on the right. i'm guessing that the low ground pressure of the cars will enable them to get across the soft ground without bogging. the mg cars will provide valuable overwatch support to the advancing pioneers, not to mention the 8-wheeled 20mm cars. the 3 flamethrowers (FTs) are left in the trucks. i'm a bit leery about getting across the soft ground in trucks but figure to play it 'gamey' and run the trucks along the clear terrain where the soft ground meets the marsh on the far right. the weapons company hq is dismounted and will accompany the pioneers on foot. the 81mm spotter is moved from its position with the battalion hq in the center and also put onto the right. in the center the infantry company and 105mm howitzers, along with the 3 'heavy FOs' (150, 150, 105) are dispersed in case they get hit by any pre-planned soviet artillery. the 105mm on-board howitzers are set up and their halftracks on standby. the 20mm aa vehicle is also nearby. the infantry platoons are at the far (e) edge of the setup zone and the 105mm guns and other units are behind them. the battalion hq is here as well. the prime movers are about halfway up the center setup zone, 2 on each side of the train track in the brush. the 20mm aa vehicle is up toward the front with the infantry platoons, and the 105mm guns are about 3/4 of the way up the setup zone, 2 apiece on each side behind the infantry; everyone is in the brush but they can still see the church beyond the bend in the tracks. this could mean an early artillery barrage will greet them at any moment. i'm so paranoid of losing my heavy FOs that i place them way in the back of the setup zone, 2 on the left and 1 on the right with the platoon hq. i may use all 3 of them in a prep barrage, sacrificing fire control to ensure that they get all of their ammo off. the briefing mentions that the areas with flags are suspected positions, so as the scenario designer i may pretend i don't know where the soviets are (and by no means do i have their strengths and locations them memorized in any event) and obliterate 3 of them from the get-go. note: as the scenario designer i often make moves to the best of my ability, where i 'pretend' not to know certain things which i actually do know about the scenario. this is in an effort to duplicate how someone playing blind might tackle a given situation. without going into specifics, sometimes i'll take casualties as the result of some move i've made whilst pretending not to have known the ai's dispositions. in the center, the battalion hq is moved to a position with command radius to the 4 howitzers. the pzjagers are moved from their position on the far left and closer to the stugs in the bend of the road. the pzjagers are facing east so they can move forward over the crest of the rise in a line if needed. i hit GO and after a moment's calculation, it is clear that there are no soviets in los at the start. in one of those instances (or so i tell myself) of 'sound tactical judgement' - and not the actual knowledge that there are 2 120mm mortar FOs in the church - my howitzers target that building. it is really a logical place to hit from the get-go. in all practicality it won't matter though; if those FOs have spotted any of my units along the train tracks, my units in for a real shelling from the start. if those FOs see nothing they're most likely going to die without ever having had the chance to call in any fire on me. in any event, my shelling the church with the onboard 105s does not strain credulity in my book. let's see how the armored cars and pioneers do on the right. doh! i left the 81mm FO with the battalion HQ in the middle! "no biggie" ok... there are no soviets in sight. so i shell the church with 4 105s and creep forward with the infantry platoons. on the right the lmg from the 37mm AT platoon moves toward a 'crest' in the terrain so as to ferret out some enemy locations before the guns themselves make the plunge. the pioneer platoon is split into half squads. the 3 lmgs accompany the platoon HQ whilst the other 9 teams work their way forward. on the left i have to make a decision. there is a hill crest which runs like a 'spine' the length of the mapboard. it blocks los from one side of the board to the other but is itself mostly wide open steppe so there is little or no infantry cover. the only real cover are a series of gulleys which run off of the spine and downward toward the flanks of the map. in any event bremer's company will have to either move to the left or the right of the spine. i decide to go for the right side and move the platoons into a position to cross the crest and onto the left half of the mapboard. if they were to stay on the right they would have the benefit of the brush on the roadside but would eventually be exposed to fire from more soviet positions. by going to the left they will be isolated from about 2/3 of the mapboard and face fire from only 2 gulleys and the 'weather station' which itself is on the crest. hopefully with the support of 5 stugs and 7 panzerjagers, they should be able to make their way across the open ground and into the first gulley. i think though that the situation calls for the dispatching of both a 105mm and a 150mm fo to assist them in their attack. i've decided against using any of the FOs in a prep barrage and instead will try to use stealth and skill to get the most out of them. i hope i don't regret this decision. i'm basically giving up the automatic obliteration of 3 flag areas (3 heavy pre-planned barrages) with the hopes that by calling in the fire as i go i can spread their fire over even more soviet positions (flag areas). in looking at the mapboard again it would be much easier to bring bremer's company along the road. the FOs earmarked for his support would then have merely to sneak out of the railroad embankment and could provide immediate support along the 'center/left road corridor.' heck though... i'll do this the hard way and see what happens. a 105mm fo is going to attempt to sneak along the back edge of the map, across a large swatch of open ground and over toward bremer's jumping off point. the afvs over on the left will stay put behind the 'berm' (rise). the center infantry is moving forward with 'e' move to contact. GO the first turn was unsettling. the church was rubblized within about 30 seconds. the weird thing was that, on the right the heavy weapons company and armored cars were hit with a rocket barrage! casualties were light (1?) but it was 'touch and go.' i noticed something else... something even more disquieting. those 120mm mortar FOs did indeed go off. they rained down on my transport halftracks and the 81mm FO is caught in the center of the barrage. luckily the FO still has 2 men. i thought i heard some other type of HE... HE beyond the rockets and my own 105mm. another lucky thing... it looks like the 120mm fire is falling just behind my rearmost 105 guns... as if they're on the edge of the barrage... no casualties there... not even shaken. hardest hit is the right side of the tracks. both sdkfz 7s are in flames. too bad i didn't move the 81mm FO out of the default setup as i'd intended. at least the battalion HQ was moved forward. the rearmost, rightmost 105mm gun is going to try and move forward. judging by the craters thus far, it is a minor miracle that the gun and crew are intact. so in a way turn 1 was a success all around. i'd intended for those soviet FOs to 'sting a bit' (but not too much) and that's what they've done so far. i'm afraid though that the 120s were 'loaded up' with ammo pretty well in the scenario editor so turn 2 could be bad for my 81mm FO and that one 105mm gun. GO on turn 2 a stuka hit near the n-s section of road leading into town. the 81mm FO was panicked but hopefully the 120mm fire will let up. the 105mm lost 2 out of 6 crewmen but is still moving forward. the heavy weapons on the left continued to move forward. the 3 lmg teams are sneaking into a patch of scattered trees and from there they'll hopefully be able to provide some overwatch fire. the lmg belonging to the 37mm AT platoon continues to sneak. on the left i've decided to cancel the sneak orders for the 105mm FO and am instead going to try a 'fast' move to an area of brush right behind the infantry and afvs over there. in the center the 2 platoons on the right of the rail line came into los of a t34 and thus stopped their 'e' move. now i'm giving the rear platoon a sneak order and they will leapfrog the lead platoon. the platoon on the left of the train track and the 4 hmgs of the mg section are continuing with their 'e' move through the ditch/brush on that side of the tracks. turn 3 GO 2 105mm howitzers were lost this turn. the rearmost one on the left was in greater danger than i'd thought. the 81mm fo is still alive and without casualties. the 105mm fo is making his way to the left, followed by the 150mm fo. since it appears they are unnoticed, their orders have been changed to 'move' from 'fast.' for turn 4, 2 of the 37mm AA vehicle reinforcements have shown up on the right. they are being moved 'left' up the road toward the main force on the right. as with the rest of the units on the right, they are out of los/lof so far. the 20mm aa vehicle in the center is already out of action. on the right the armored cars are all moving up, toward the patch of scattered trees. the 37mm At guns are being moved about 100 meters forward. it turns out there aren't any good firing positions that far back; that is to say that they could push their way to the left and up the rise but it would expose them to a good part of the mapboard. by staying hidden behind the hill and down in the soft ground, once they do make contact it will hopefull only be with soviet positions around the church/ruins. turn 4 GO on the right one of the 37mm AT guns was knocked out. some apparent 76mm fire is hitting but i can't tell where from. there is a t34 north of the bridge by the church/ruins but it doesn't appear as though that is the source of the fire. there are probably 20 or 30 76mm artillery pieces dotting the landscape so it is probably one of those; from where exactly though i can't tell. the 150mm spotter on the right of the rail tracks has sneaked into position and has los to that t34 i mentioned by the bridge. it is calling in fire now. the other two 'heavy' FOs are making their way north without incident. the 105mm FO is almost to the brush behind the other units on the left. the company of infantry in the middle are still pushing their way up both sides of the track. turn 5 GO soviet 120mm keeps raining down around the 81mm FO. the FO is panicked again by the end of the turn. i must have 'gone off' when i 'amped up' the ammo loads on those soviet 120mm FOs in the scenario editor! i mean it's the end of turn 5 already! i suppose it could have been worse; i could have lost more than 2 105mm guns and 2 halftracks with an 81mm spotter threatened. if the soviets had placed their barrage orders in the midst of my infantry company, it would probably have been rendered ineffective by now. as it is i still have 2 105mm guns and the infantry company is making its way forward. the 81mm FO might survive. on the right i have formulated a plan: there is a band of 'low ground' on the edge of the even lower 'soft ground.' up by the first large (3 tile) patch of scattered trees, the armored cars will gather on that 'low' band of steppe. i've seen more bogging than i'm comfortable with so am trying to get the cars onto some firmer ground without them being chewed to bits by the soviet positions all over the place. the hope is that if i move them to the steppe just 'above' (left of) the scattered trees where the pioneer mgs are setting up, that they will be able to see soviet positions on the finger of land pointing out to the south of the ruined church. 2 more 37mm AA vehicles arrived on the left. that makes 4 so far. at one point i'd actually forgotten about these; but as the designer i can't help but know that there are 8; all arriving on the left, and all by turn 8 or so. oh, it helps making large scenarios then trying to forget exactly what was done; that way i don't even know the exact details such as reinforcement rates or exactly where i seeded the field with 20-some odd 76mm pieces and 15 or 20 some-odd 45mm AT, not to mention the dozen or so t34s! grin anyway, getting back to the left; once the FOs catch up with the infantry and afvs over there, i will go 'over the top' and expose the force to the soviets in the gulleys on the left and the weather station at the top of the hill. the plan is this: get the FOs into position in a line of infantry and AFVs. then shoot and scoot the AFVs all at once, while moving up the infantry and MGs into a firefight. the FOs will also sneak forward at that point. as the AFVs 'shoot and scoot,' the infantry and FOs will remain on line and pour in fire at the AFVs then try another round of 'shoot and scoot.' i have thought of sneaking only the FOs into position, but that seems to risky. with the distraction of the massed, 'shoot and scoot,' perhaps the FOs can get into position unnoticed. the ongoign presence of the 4 HMG 34s and the rest of the infantry company will offer a continued distraction as the FOs wait for their fire to effect. but that's still 3 or 4 turns away. nonetheless, the infantry can get 'online' just behind the berm. so on the left the infantry are shifting 200 or 300 meters further left. this is to ensure that when they cross over the top of the 'berm' that they don't take fire from the entire map but just the 2 gulleys on that side of the map, and the weather station on the hilltop/crest. on the left the armored cars are all making for solid ground and some pioneer teams have been ordered far forward. the trucks are bringing up the rear with orders to move into the 3 scattered tree tiles where the pioneer platoon lmg teams reside. the 37mm At guns are going to move a bit further forward and into firing positions. they will be behind the main body of light armor. again the hope is that the cars will be on solid ground but out of los of the main soviet force and thus have to contend with just a couple or 3 guns on that sliver of land south of the ruined church. turn 6 GO everything went fairly smoothly on the right. the lmg belonging to the 37mm platoon found some los as it climbed the hill away from the soft ground and is going to try some area fire on a patch of trees by the ruined church. 3 t34s are visible north of there around the bridge, and the 150mm FO who stayed put on by the train tracks has 1 minute until firing for effect. the other 150mm FO was on its way to support the left, but i stopped its movement there in the patch of open ground between the road and the train tracks. it is unspotted and from there it is calling in fire on another t34 which it has los to, there by the bridge/ruins. i probably made a mistake in not calling in fire on the area around the church/bridge earlier. so instead of sending the 2nd 150mm to support the left (which might be overkill), it is going to sit out there in the open and try to contribute to the developing situation as more and more soviet tanks appear around the church. on the finger of trees and stepp jutting out south of the church into the surrounding soft ground, there is 1 gun and another 'gun sound?' so the situation on the right and center is getting critical. one 105mm artillery piece is duelling with a t34 by the church ruins - the same t34 which will get hit by a 150mm barrage if it is alive in 3 minutes. it is only 1 minute until the next t34 to the north is hit by a barrage. no armored cars have been lost, but one has been immobilized in the soft ground. the 37mm at guns are going further forward after all. if they were to show themselves there where their lmg is, they would be hit by a lot of soviets. so they'll keep behind the hill and keep moving forward in its shadow along the soft ground. 2 20mm cars and one of the pioneer lmgs are about to duel it out with that newly-discovered gun south of the church. on the right the infantry are shifting. the mgs are moving too slowly so i have scaled back their orders. it looks as though the 105mm FO will crest in the center, with the MGs on its right and the 3 platoons on the left. AFVs will intermingle with the entire line. in the center, the advancing platoons are being split into half squads and dispersed along the brush ditches; at least until the T34s near the bend in the rail tracks (by the ruins and the bridge) can be dispatched. the sounds of friendly aircraft have been heard but their effects are unknown, other than the crater they laid down on turn 1 or 2 there where i had placed the KV2 in the editor. i was wondering if the stuka support would readily find the KV2 and at least in this case it appears to have. it remains to be seen whether there was any effect. none of my units have LOS to the area but otherwise there is a big crater there. the 81mm FO continues to panic in the barrage but it is still alive and has 2 men. turn 9: at the end of turn 8, 3 8-wheeled cars were already knocked out. another t34 has popped up; this one in the firm ground south of the ruins. the 105 in the center took out the t34 closest to the ruins. the 150mm FO fired for effect on another t34 and caused it to dash away. 3 light cars are also out of action. it looks like one or more of them was strafed by a stuka. one 105mm gun in the middle was strafed by a stuka on turn 7. so on the right things are 'touch and go' as that t34 may have my units pinned down. the remaining two 8-wheeled cars are set to duke it out with a soviet across the way. on the left the units are set to crest the berm on turn 10. almost everything is in place. the more i look at it though the dicier it looks. not only will there be possible soviet fire from the two gullies on the left, but there may be soviet positions further east along the crest from the weather station which may also be able to contribute to the coming firefight. hopefully the weight of 6 pzjagers, 5 stugs, and 6 or 8 37mm vehicles, combined with the infantry will be able to inflict some kind of casualties; as all the while the 105mm FO will call in some fire. i will have to revisit this situation in my next gaming session. turn 35: on the right my entire force of armored cars, at guns, and pioneer squad have been wiped out before the church. the only semblance of success is in the center, where the 'II.' company has pushed all the way up the rail trench to the bridge on the left and the church ruins on the right. even so, the 2 platoons on by the church are suffering heavy casualties, and can't seem to get to the t34s on the other side. some kind of soviet infantry persists in the ruins themselves. on the left of the rail line the platoon has seized the bridge, but is taking fire from mg and armored cars up the gulley to the left. the hmg section is making its way forward. further back the last remaining 105mm artillery piece is being towed forward by the last mover. the 150mm FO and platoon HQ advance up the ditch, with the battalion hq ahead of them. on the left there is but one surviving afv, a 37mm aa vehicle making its way now between the road and the rail line in order to try and get a 'free' shot at an armored car in the gulley leading down to the first rail bridge. the other surviving aa vehicle was hit last turn by a t34. all 5 stugs, 7 of 8 37mm aa vehicles, and 6 pzjager 1s are out of action. the "1." company is scattered all over the steppe, stuck in the no man's land between their starting place by the road and the first gulley on the same side. a lot of soviet infantry just turned up around the weather station and the 'head' of that gulley so the 105mm FO is trying to direct fire to there. the 150mm FO on this side, after directing fire which eliminated 1 of the 2 t34s in the center between the road and the rail, is now on the left and is directing fire at a t34 on the near side of the first gulley. a 2nd t34 on the far side of the gulley has been getting intermittent los to the spotter and has taken some pot shots at it, bringing it down to just 1 man. the attack has pretty much been an unmitigated disaster. there were a few bright spots though: -the way the last remaining 105mm artillery piece took out one of the 2 t34s between the rail and the road with a single shot after a 'move to contact' order and 2 minutes of tense setup time. -the continuing sound of the 2nd company hmg section, there in the open steppe. these guys are being hit by all kinds of enemy shot and shells, but continue to fire at whatever they can. well i guess those are the bright spots. all told my forces have managed to take out 4 t34s so far, so things could have been worse. as long as i've got ammo for my FOs and a functioning 105mm gun, i will play this one out. even with the high casualties thus far, with a little luck i could destroy some more soviet guns and/or t34s. things i would do differently: just as the briefing warns against, i wouldn't open up 'multiple fronts.' in hindsight the 3 key things i would do differently would be: 1. better coordination of my FOs from the get-go. no needing to take several turns to get them positioned. 2. less aggression on the far right. the infantry in the center should have been allowed to move up nearby the church, at the bend in the road, then the real advance on the right should have started. as it turned out, i advanced everything on the right at a certain point and by the time the infantry in the center 'caught up' the pioneers and cars and at guns on the right were all kaput. 3. i would have attacked with the leftmost force, not over the 'berm' and into the 'left side' of the map, but instead i would have moved the infantry up the 'road ditch' or continuous line of depressed brush tiles whilst supporting with AFVs on the 'plain' between the road and railroad tracks. thus everything over and to the left (north) of the 'spine' which runs the length of the map could have been avoided. as it was, almost the moment my forces crossed over the 'berm' and into the soviet guns on the left, i knew i was in trouble, because it wasn't just the 2 gulleys and the weather station, but several other soviet positions which chimed in to obliterate my left wing. as a part of number 3, i would truly use 'shoot and scoot' with the pzjagers. another mistake i made when going 'over the top' on the left was to simply 'hunt' and not 'shoot and scoot' with the pzjagers. it resulted in 6 dead tank destroyers in very short order. i guess a bit of tungsten in the pzjager ammo loads wasn't enough to make them invisible to soviet guns. i played it out through turn 48 and scored another kill with my last 105mm artillery piece. it had been on the left of the rail track, hitched itself up to the last halftrack, gotten towed across the track to the opposite ditch and moved a bit forward before coming under fire from that t34 which had been behind the church ruins. that particular tank had taken a lot of 150mm barrage fire earlier, and had sat behind (south of) the ruins as the 2-platoon german infantry attack had disintegrated to the north of the same ruins. as that attack had been sliced to ribbons, the tank had moved its way to the north of the church, then ultimately onto the rail track where the 105 was forced to dismount from its halftrack. that 105mm had spent another 3 turns while the t34 more or less had ignored it, choosing instead to fire at the prime mover by the 105mm gun, and the last infantry platoon and hmg section on the left side of the track near the bridge. after those tense turns, the 105mm piece then nailed the t34 in a single shot, then dispatched an armored car in two more shots north of the rail line by the bridge. by then the 105mm FO to the left was out of ammo, some squads over there had actually surrendered out in the open to the t34s, and the rest of 'bremer's' company was being cut to ribbons. about the only 'healthy' infantry units remaining were those by the rail bridge, to the left (north). my 150mm spotters both had about 20 round left apiece, and the 105mm gun could have been moved up toward the church, but my unit strength was otherwise almost spent. that last platoon by the bridge was facing a massive soviet counterattack from just across the gulley to the east. the only other intact units were the machineguns of 'bremer's' company on the left, and the battalion hq, and artillery battalion/platoon hq in the ditch by the rail tracks. the 81mm FO had been wiped out by that last t34 killed on the tracks. so upon hitting cease-fire the score was: 76-24 allies 333 axis casualties, 183 allied (81-54 kia) axis: 3 men captured, 6 mortars, 6 guns, 36 vehicles destroyed allied: 0 captured, 10 guns, 8 vehicles allies had 16 out of 20 (small) flags, germans had 0 (4 contested) so it looks like 6 t34s were destroyed, along with 1 armored car and 1 kv2 (by stuka on turn 1 or 2). the only surviving axis vehicles were 2 trucks, an immobilized mg car, and an sdkfz 7. one thing which really went against my units was the fact that my 105mm onboard pieces did so little firing. those direct fire 105mm rounds are extremely valuable, and only 1 gun out of 4 had any kind of real impact. 2 guns were taken out, basically before they had fired a shot. one thing i noticed about the 105 pieces was that they had - when they would get the chance - a decent shot of killing a given t34. it seems to me that despite their lower caliber, their longer barrel gives them a better chance to kill a t34 than does the 150mm infantry gun (none of which are in this scenario). this is just an offhand observation of course. one last thing of interest was the aggressiveness of the soviets as the battle wore on. t34s and armored cars, along with infantry would actually attack my positions. the t34s had a fairly good ability to avoid incoming artillery barrages, sometimes moving at the moment the telltale sound of incoming fire could be heard, particularly from the 150s. again it was my lack of a center of gravity which really turned this one into a travesty. this calls for a rematch. [ January 14, 2003, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: manchildstein II ]

security units would probably fight partisans... although if memory serves one 'ss police division' served near leningrad in '41... and got its butt kicked... again if memory serves... luftwaffe ground troops would probably fight in 'normal' infantry situations, and yes mountain troops would often serve in mountains... like the carpathians early on or the caucasus in '42... a number of german and romanian mountain divisions served around the black sea/sea of aszov coasts including the areas around sevastopol in '41-'42... of course this is all if memory serves...