Splinty

The way returning Vietnam vets were treated was really horrible. I think we have a more nuanced understanding these days. Even if we don't support the war itself, there is a broader understanding that the men and women sent to fight in it aren't to blame.
My understanding is that Soviet soldiers who returned from Afghanistan faced treatment similar to US soldiers returning from Vietnam. So Russian society went through a similar experience, and had the opportunity to draw similar lessons. But it seems that self reflection is not an area in which the Russians excel.

Let's not forget the stories of how Russian soldiers coming home from Ukraine are treated. From what I've read it's worse than how US vets were treated during the Viet Nam era. On the other hand US vets returning home from Iraq and Afghanistan were judging from my own experience, were treated very well, regardless of people's opinions on the wars themselves.

One possible explanation is that is the only "safe" way citizens can get out their frustrations with the war. Yelling at one solider who is now a civilian is a lot safer than joining a protest march.
 
Yeah, thankfully more people seem to have learned that the political decisions about going to and conducting the war are not being made by the people who fight them. I'm glad we have done better at that recently.

Let's not forget the stories of how Russian soldiers coming home from Ukraine are treated. From what I've read it's worse than how US vets were treated during the Viet Nam era. On the other hand US vets returning home from Iraq and Afghanistan were judging from my own experience, were treated very well, regardless of people's opinions on the wars themselves.

Let's not forget the stories of how Russian soldiers coming home from Ukraine are treated. From what I've read it's worse than how US vets were treated during the Viet Nam era. On the other hand US vets returning home from Iraq and Afghanistan were judging from my own experience, were treated very well, regardless of people's opinions on the wars themselves.

All marines were trained in First Aid, and that was performed only after the fire fight or assault was completed. The Corpsmen basically worked on the wounded in a Triage manner. The standing rule of a grunt was that if you perform First Aid on someone, you used their med kit, not yours.

LOL, there is a reason EVERY Marine wants a K-bar! In fact, I still have one, and I can still shave with it, sort of!😂

The US Army and Marines still do bayonet training in basic and boot camp. But as was mentioned previously it's more about aggression and motivation than actually training to use them in combat. In any case a big knife always comes in handy. 

The US Army and Marines still do bayonet training in basic and boot camp. But as was mentioned previously it's more about aggression and motivation than actually training to use them in combat. In any case a big knife always comes in handy. 

At least when I went through basic we still got instruction on some of the heavier weapons. When I was still on active duty a few years ago the newer soldiers in my squad had never even touched a M249 or M240B, let alone fired one.

The US Army and Marines still do bayonet training in basic and boot camp. But as was mentioned previously it's more about aggression and motivation than actually training to use them in combat. In any case a big knife always comes in handy. 

Ukraine's Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba, while on a visit in France, told a story, how small group of 31 fighters maintained success in Robotyne, after weeks of unsuccessful assaults

...One Ukrainian unit had been conducting continuous assaults in this area of the front, and due to exhaustion and losses, at some point, this unit lost the ability to continue the offensive. And then "radical decisions" were made: the unit's leadership was changed.
New commander asked to assemble soldiers who were motivated and ready to perform combat missions. A combined group of 31 soldiers was created, a third of whom had no combat experience, but all of whom had the knowledge and will to win.
Thanks to the leadership of the commanders and sergeants, this group established "horizontal links" with neighbouring units and started working on the contact line. For 18 hours, they crawled literally on their stomachs through kilometres of minefields, where the Russians had placed six mines per square metre.
Finally, the unit reached a strip of trees dividing farmers' fields. Everyone in Ukraine knows this word - "posadka" ("tree-plant, tree-line"). It’s in these plantations, invisible on maps, that the greatest tragedies and heroism of the war take place. So, our unit drove the Russians out of there and held the position for two days until reinforcements arrived. Subsequently, this group walked another 10 kilometres with backpacks weighing 35-40 kilograms through minefields. They only had time to catch their breath briefly and immediately stormed the fortified Russian positions, drove the enemy out and held out until the main forces arrived.
In total, this unit conducted six assaults and two reconnaissance missions in 40 days. A group of 31 men did the work of an entire battalion, which should have consisted of about 400 men. The losses amounted to seven wounded, including only one seriously injured after stepping on a mine.
In fact, the work of this group made it possible for an entire brigade to attack Robotyne and liberate it after weeks of assaults.
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/08/30/7417687/

A testament to the quality of this thread:
it took 2814 pages before the subject of racism popped up. That must be a worldrecord for any thread on any forum these days.

Its right up there with "be more manoeuvre-y!" and use mission command.  We in western militaries have not been in a fight like this since maybe Korea.  One cannot manoeuvre across obstacle belts kms deep.  This is a straight up grudge attritional match until breakthrough.  I am sure the UA has made mistakes but this continual stream of "well if you just did it like us" nonsense is both arrogant and completely disconnected from realities they are facing on the ground.
UAS are integral to recon and SA building now.  This would be like advocating to "rely on radios less" in this environment.  The second I read that I thought that this was either some very oblivious US government hack, or a misinformation campaign.

Thank you for the kind words and the addition.
Like with so many subjects, things are much more complicated than the simple explanation/description I used in my "ruthless or forgiving"-post. There's more to it. After ww2 ended, hardly anyone would, or could, really believe that the committed atrocities during the war could be as bad as they were. No smartphones, no Youtube, no Twitter in those days. So maybe it was easier to forget and forgive in those days.
My personal feelings do not always correspond with my rational and "factual" observations. I write about "forgiving", but I do struggle with that concept. Because although I consciously understand that refraining from revenge, and trying to empathize with "wrong-doing" people really will - how counter-intuitive it may sound - improve things in the long run, my gut-feelings struggle to accept that.
I feel that if I were in power, and I could catch people like Putin and Prigozhin and Utkin alive, or the ones that were responsible for the abduction of the Ukranian kids that were taken to Russia, or the soldiers that tortured and killed ordinary people just for fun, etc, that I would summary execute them. No questions asked.
Rabid Russian-supporting politicians? Bullet in the back of the head, no sorrow, no guilt. And no need for trials or laywers. No doubt, no hesitation. That is how I feel. I'm beginning to look like idiots as Stalin, Hitler and Saddam!
And then the difficulty really starts.. The Crimean-conundrum starts. Because, where do I draw the line? Traitors? Sure, they can be shot on site. But what about people who had a shop or business and supplied the Russian Army? Should they be shot? Imprisoned? Flogged?
And what about Ukrainian people who "only" had a Russian flag out in front of their house? Not because they liked the Russians, but because they were scared. What to do with those? What about the people who didn't support Ukraine, but didn't support Russia either? Do we consider them cowards?
I don't know. And the Ukrainians probably don't know. But I hope they are more prone to understanding, then to get even.
Maybe my peace-loving posts do not make it very clear, but I admire the Ukrainians. They are without a doubt on the moral high ground, so far. They care about their own soldiers and civilians, and they sometimes even care about the Russian soldiers(!!!). They can't get air-superiority, and they cannot fight on even terms, because they cannot (the West would not like that) go berserk on Russian territory where a lot could be gained ( Only one brigade on the loose on Russian soil, imagine that!), and that must feel like being in a fist-fight with one hand tied behind your back.
I really hope this war ends before the climate-change will end it.
 
 

This is ridiculous. This has already happened repeatedly through normal judicial processes following liberation of territories. I can’t think of a single proven example of extrajudicial violence against civilian collaborators by the Ukrainian government or military.

Re: possible insurgency
1. First off, as Steve already said, things can theoretically happen. We're talking about the most likely scenario. Anyone who predicts future with 100% certainty is a fraud.
2. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of bad blood. Just as you saw a lot of Crimeans genuinely cheering up and supporting the invaders in 2014, the Crimeans saw people on mainland Ukraine cheer powerlines being blown up as 2 million people plunged into darkness, water channel being cut off, the roads being blocked for cargo traffic, with all the little nasty consequences that were actually physically felt here. The reactionary post-2014 policies, laws and rethoric weren't great either. But compared to all the mayhem what's been happening since Feb 2022, this is nothing. And people are TIRED of chaos, flying jets, drones, explosions and death. Those who are currently in the trenches or came from there are tired as well.
3. What would be "the cause" to rally behind? They can't even formulate victory conditions for the current war. Nor can they achieve anything significant, with all their men and equipment in the field. Rallying (who, civilians?) to do something a huge army can't do? That requires guts and there's none. Only stupidity and hubris. They are unable to say NO when told to do something stupid or illegal. Saying no requires guts.
4. You need to understand the reality on the ground. Pretty much all Crimeans who haven't left have Russian passports. What, 1.5-2 million people? Myself included. Because living here without one is practically impossible. Hell, I know Crimeans who left and are currently on mainland Ukraine that also have Russian passports, issued in Crimea in 2014 (illegaly, obviously). For Ukrainian government to take back control, they'll have to deal with it somehow. And bunch of other documents. There's already been laws and decrees passed aimed to make the transition back as painless as possible. There's a whole ministry that's dealing with issues like these. Refer to Ministry of Reintegration sources for more information.
5. That being said, it's been nine years, and nobody can pretict how much more time will pass before that. It can happen in two months, or in two years, or in ten. And with every single day, people are growing more tired. They are trying as hard as they can not to notice what's happening now. And there's no land warfare close by yet. When it comes, they'll have much more incentive to make it stop ASAP.
 
Re: how am I doing?
My life isn't as horrible as for some others out there. But things can change literally any minute, as for everybody else in the region. So I am trying to live in the moment while I can.
For those who don't know, I tried to get to Estonia via St.Petersburg back in September. Before Feb 2022, it was illegal (by Ukrainian laws) thing to do. I managed to contact some Ukrainian officials and learned that it is okay during the war, if your purpose is to leave the occupied areas/Russia.
But, as I also have Russian passport (issued locally after 2014, and almost impossible to get rid of without being put into danger), Russia views me as Russian citizen first, and by their laws, I had to get foreign travel passport in order to leave. I did that, and it took time. I also had to prepare money and other affairs. Thus I managed to get to the Estonian border only in September. My thinking was that it would be safer to deal with Russian documents after I cross the border, not before.
I knew that Russian passports issued in Crimea are not recognized by the EU. My Ukrainian foreign travel passport was outdated by that point. The rules are: you can apply for asylum if you have no valid travel documents. But when I got to the border, Estonian police and border guard told me that everything is fine with my Russian passport (the travel document I had to use to leave the Russian side of the border, because Russian laws) and thus I cannot ask for an asylum.
I told them many things about myself, and that I would be in danger if I return, but they did not care. They were angry and not cooperative, unwilling to listen. They blamed me for not coming sooner and for other things I had no control over. That night at the border is something that still haunts me to this day. Being rejected by the people who you considered to be good and being sent back to modern day neo-USSR. And there are things that I am not telling you here, because it is dangerous...
Anyway.. I came to St.Petersburg. Got seriously ill. Still, I got tickets to Vladikavkaz in order to try crossing into Georgia. But soon I found a lot of info online that told me the same story would happen there as well. There were no other good alternatives that came to my mind. Going somewhere else eastward wasn't looking like a good idea either, legally, logistically and for other reasons.
At that time, my little sister was still in Crimea. I've decided to come back here and deal with whatever happens to all of us together. Since then, there was a harsh winter without work. Serious depression, from which I barely managed to recover on my own, without meds or therapist. The dangers that are lurking out there are real. But I know who I am and what I stand for, and where my allegiance is.
Most importantly, I know that the bastards have already lost. I knew that back in Feb 2022. They will not succeed, no matter what happens to me personally. They can't do anything good in this world, and there's no "winning" for them in any shape or form.
I've stopped working on my Unity dev career for now. I tried to find some remote work, but failed and had to return back to working in a store. I do see a future where things go at least a little bit better. But for that to happen, a lot of people have to put in a lot of effort. There's nothing free, and freedom itself is not free. We all have to work for it.
Alright, I've already said much more than I should've. Over and out.

They count bodies before accidents? 😀

Was going to leave this one but this is rife with risk and we do no service in downplaying them.  First problem will be children born in Crimea since 2014.  A bunch of ten year olds who likely have Russian citizenship who have never lived anywhere else.  I honestly cannot see trainloads of them and their families being forcibly loaded onto truck and trains - being splashed all over the internet by Russian IO - not having a significant risk.  Call it deportation, call it whatever you like but it is going to have blowback.  Yes, it is exactly what the Russian's did, and it will take people about 3 seconds to link the two actions and ask "just who are we supporting here?"
And then there are those who do not want to leave and try to stay by force.  We can hope this is not the case but we cannot wish it away.  The roots of an insurgency are there - a just cause and repression (from their point of view), no political mechanism in which to try and make change in their interests, support and backing from a neighboring nation with a grudge.  How many times do we have to invade a country/region/territory (or be supporting one) and gloss over the fact that some of the population is likely to push back?
I actually support re-taking the Crimea, it will definitely frame this war as a Russian loss. But I also do not recommend waving hands at what could be very serious security issues in that region that could blow up and back.  One Ukrainian solder does one unrighteous shoot, and insurgencies are really good at setting those up, and the whole deal starts to unravel.  Trainloads of deported Russian who have been living in Crimea for ten years with sad music on YouTube is also not really a good thing either.
Like a lot of these liberation theories I am seeing a lot of hope strung together - Hope all the bad Crimeans leave once the RA collapses. Hope those that remain are neutral of supportive of Ukrainian liberation. Hope we don't have to do mass deportations that can start to look like ethnic cleansing, with a sinister far right undertone.  Hope Russia does not arm anyone and everyone who is willing to make trouble for liberation.  Man that is a lot of points of failure.

I agree with Haiduk and Steve that there won't be any pro-russian insurgency in Crimea in case of UKR troops going in hot. But, yes, it is going to be hard to govern, for sure. Something good to look forward to anyway. 
It is quite hard to predict how the events will unfold exactly from now on. That raid was definitely fun though, even if only symbolical.

They sure do, and they rewrite them every few years.

So all of them would have had window seats! 😈

They couldn't get Prig to stand near a window. So they put him on a plane.

Prig "I'd like an aisle seat please."
Ticket agent.  "sorry, all we have left are window seats....."

They couldn't get Prig to stand near a window. So they put him on a plane.