Compassion

Oh argle bargle... A3R? The first time I saw that someone had put an A in front of 3R I stood on the floor of the con I was at with mouth agape. They took a complicated game and made it more so. NEver got into A3r, but spent many a long weekend with 3R 3rd ed....

Becasue I want to play a game of grand strat in europe... not a grand tactical game. You are mistaking scale for complexity maybe? I don't understand your point. You don't want to play with strategic considerations you just want to push armies around? Great. As simple as SC is, though, it doesn't seem to fit your bill in that regard...

Was that as cavalry or as transport drafts? I recall reading that the Germans never got to full mechanization of their supply trains and that the Russians kept quite a few horse units around. Wasn't sure if that was for partsans and garritroopers or real cav units. [ November 22, 2002, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: Compassion ]

Also not quite fair to limit it to only the easy eight. Starting in July 1944, an ever increasing percentage of the Shermans in Western Europe were equiped with the 76mm gun. </font>

Not according to Russian tank ace Dmitriy Loza. Also, consider that the M4A3E8(76) Sherman (otherwise known as the "easy eight" was more than the equal of the T34-85 in Korea. The Sherman was preferred to the M-26 Pershing in Korea due to its supperior mobility.</font>

This thread is sooooo:

The fact that this problem exists (if true) is a flaw in the engine... IF exploited for advantage, it's gamey. [ November 21, 2002, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Compassion ]

As someone who only plays humans my priorities might be a bit different than yours, but I think that Long Range Air is a big mid game goal. After Jets are up to 3 and IT is pumped up and Tanks are on their way, I put points into LRA becasue I need to be able to use my planes as often as possible and the need to rebase every few turns as the Germans during the opening stages of a Russian campign can drain my offensive power as well as keeping the brits from risking the Royal Navy in any escapades up the Baltic or too close to the mainland in the North Sea. As the Allies, the ability to reach out and touch deep into Germany from Britain is nice, especially once you have a couple points and can base out of the north away (hopefully if you are leading the LRA race) from prying eyes. Also works well as an intel gathering tool for the Brits for the odd game that you can keep the Ruskies in for a while.

Well, The Grant was recognized as a stopgap and it's problems were apparent. The Brits needed armor though and they weren't being picky. ONce the French 75 was mated to a turret that could be mounted on a Grant chassis, the M3's production quickly spooled down. THe resulting tnak, the M4 was judged to be the US infatry support tank and US armored doctrine called for M4's to support infantry action only while TD's should be called up from a mobile reserve to deal with enemy tanks... Of course this doctrine failed, but that's how it was. At the time of it's inception, the M4 was pretty good tank and would show itself easily the equal of any tank in the world... in 1941. While the Russians and Germans played a game of armored one upmanship at breakneck pace for the next few years, the US went at a more sedate pace for several reasons. Even after we had some experience with the difficulties in using tanks as doctrine called for in the Med, there was resitance to speeding up development of a next gen tank both in Washington where beancounters fretted about costs, the quartermasters fretted about shipping multiple typs of spares & ammo during transition and also the size constraints of shipping a 45 ton tank with a 90mm gun as well as US commanders who wanted lots of iron on the front now and didn't want to risk a shortage. Lots or reasons that all add up to haveing Shermans flooding the battlefield... Good discussion of these points as well as tactical doctrine for both armor and small infantry units can be found in Michael Doubler's most excellent book "Closing with the Enemy." As for the M5... well, it was produced in huge numbers and saw pleanty of use in Europe with both teh British and hte US... of course they were used for specialized applications such as cav and reece work where their high speed served them well.

I read recently (and damned if I can remember where) that an ageing Russian marshall said in the early 90's that horses would be instumental in the next great war.... Because it was brief, I could't tell if he was portending that we would nuke ourselves to the bronze age or not... Right, that was my point in posting what I did... THe overblown propaganda aobut lancers cliking off of tanks and amazed dumb poles is a fiction of Goebbels (sp?). The fact is that cavalry was used well and intelligently with an understanding that it wouldn't stop the Heer, but could be used for certain specialized jobs that required mobility and the ability to operate away from it's supply trains for a time such as those described in my post above. Too often people hear cavalry and think it's 1805.

YEs... but the whole of NAZI ideology folds on itself if you don't treat the JEws and Slavs as Untermench and exterminate them. And there's no way that rhetoric could have been tempered once Hitler gained the Chancellery as his staunchest supporters were dead serious about that crazyness. He would have been out on his ear by 1935 if he hadn't made his rabid racial purity into law as soon as he was elected. Without even needing to crack a book, I would say to anyone with an interest to go pick up a DVD copy of Triumph of the WIll... there is one out now that has an excellent commentary by Anthony Santoro that illuminates who's who and has lots of interesting tidbits (the story of the blood flag and the guy who's only job was to carry the blood flag is illuminating in the land of National Socialism)... After watching what passes for a party congress it'll be easier to see and understand the differneces between NAZI Germany where deed mathced rhetoric and say... Fascist ITaly which went much more for the look and feel (Not that Il Duce was a peach or anything). So yeah, HItler probably would have won the European war if he had been a nicer conquerer... but he never would have gotten to that point.

Well, to be fair, one of the big reasons Hitler lost the war was becasue of Hitler.. that and the German general staff in toto thought too much about the political value of Moscow, me thinks. [ November 16, 2002, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: Compassion ]

Yeah ok, but you said that "more countries however now days soldiers fight with SA 80s..etc" and I am just pointing out that this is 1) not true and 2) that there is nothing wrong with the M16... no matter what someone from the UN says and how his point is inferred by the aussie broadcasting co... As stated, commonwealth SAS forces can use what they want and they choose the M16. Also, While the handy A2 is getting a little long in the tooth, it's still serviceable until the next paradigm hits.... One that some people keep tryign to introduce before a new system is field ready. Besides, while the A2 is getting along, the A3 and G4 are here today... As for the statement about m16's starting to show up on the black market.. I'd put the lack of them up until recently (if this report is to be believed... sounds like it was painted with pretty broad strokes to me) down to the fact that AK-47's have bee npouring onto the international market cheaply and in huge competing quantities and that they are more easilyused in places where cheap and plentiful is a necessity (like Subsaharan Africa, the ME, South America, etc.) and where more complicated system like the M16 require a higher maintananece standard and expense.

Incedibly difficult to do. This could easily lead to a hughe western adantage and simply tilt the game back to the Allied side as heavily as it is to the Axis now. I can make a deal with my Allies to have the US investigate tanks and AT while the Russians develop bombers and industial tech and then the Brits develop... I dunno, fighters and AAA.. AS these advances start to be made the Germans get buried under basically 3 armies with the power of a nation right out of 1955. It's also ahistorical not only in what the powers were willing to share with each other, but how easily it is to adapt new designs that one country with it's industrial and R&D traditions, customs and tolerances to another. WHile a concept like Russian sloped armor may be easily quantified mathimatically adn shared, other advances, such as aircraft design aren't with each country having a different view of requirements and ROI... I could see flat out buying things from other countries faster than incorporating them into their native manufacturing base as happened often with the Brits buying Shermans, Grants and P51B's... and even then when the buyer designs advances, there's as much a chance that they will be declined or ignored (such as with the Firefly variant of the M4) as they will be incorporated into the next dexign (as with the P51 getting the RR Merlin engine and bubble canopy... that still took over a year to incorporate).

no, but it is odd, you have to admit, rolling that unlucky for several turns in a row... almost like when I had no tech advances with all 10 points invested fora year and a half... doh!

...and unfortunate duplicate post due to clicking on the forward, backward and refresh button without paying attention... sorry all, nothing to see here... [ November 16, 2002, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Compassion ]

ANdre- The BTS boards have held up well with a decent signal to noise ratio even though some losers (or loosers... heheh) occasional join in. It doesn't look as good here as the volume of posting just isn't as high yet as that for some of the other games or the general forum, but there have been some great discussions here even lately even with the disruptions. I do know what you are saying as I stopped posting here for a couple months because of some loudmouths (and because spinning 8-10 CMBO/BB games and 4 or 5 SC pbem games at once doesn't leave much time sometimes). But I've returned and found some interestingthings to talk about. The lame history list thread is morphing into a pretty good discussion now that people are starting to discuss and criticize (in a good way) the counter arguemnts given to the poor thought put into the original post. As well, the Generals thread, while not very utilitarian as a flat list of names is becoming a very good discussion. So I'd advise sticking with it and not paying attention to some of the sillyer posts as those posters usually gravitate somewhere else or get banned once their vitriol starts to take over (I say as an old man of the boards who had his low member number destroyed in the Great crash).

Cogent point. I've always seen Halsey as a learning on the job kind of commander (at least for the kind of fleet actions WWII presented) who had good instincts. Awesome in applicaton when things break right, but the deficit in unseen 'holes' in knowlege can be equally awesome. I took WWII to mean the whole war even though it's out of scope for the game we are...erm... foruming in. As far a Nimitz goes. He's in the same rhealm of Ike. Difficult to judge how he is as an operational leader as he worked at a level once removed during the war.

I think that the scorn heaped on Mongomery is sometimes a little mispalced. He came from a generation of commanders that came out of WWI with an innate fear of repeating that history and dooming an etire generation of England's young men. He went to the desert and chased Rommel around.. but he tried to only engage him where the conditions were favorable. He was also the architect of the battles in Northern France where yes, he burned british troops at a prodigious rate, but that was in recognition that with the corporal throwing everytihng he had in France there, he could atrit the entire german army in the West... and he was right. When the US Armored forces were set free to sweep around the rear of the enemy it was largely because of the work that Monty had done (don't ge me wrong, without excellent leadership, the US armored advances wouodln't have worked, but still... Monty had laid the groundwork). The thing with Monty that invites so much criticism, I think, is that even though he was a good commander, he was a jackass of a man who always seemed to promise more than he could deliver and when he fell short, he was notorious for equivocating and blameing his subordinates. He was known to be a popular leader who easily gathered good staff officers around him as he could get the job done... but never gain those staffs trust or respect for anything other than his fighting ability. An odd duck and one that can't be described with a couple words... As for other commanders.. I'm suprised that no one has mentioned Nimitz or Halsey...

Um... British soldiers (and a few Jamacians), perhaps... and the Brits complained about them jamming in Afghanistan to which the govt. blamed the soldiers for not keeping their weapons clean. Oddly enough when left to their devices, the SAS chose an AR15 derivative... and the Canadian military just went to a licenced M16 as their standard rifle. This thread in the General Forum from a few weeks back has lots of good info from people who have used SA80's, M16's & AK's & Fal's in combat and on the range. THere are also some tasty links for the gun grogs out there. [ November 16, 2002, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Compassion ]

Take a look at the post right above yours!

Unless it was for, as Michael Dorosh says, a house rule for a specific purpose such as a Tournament, I think this kind of battle would be sort of silly. It would end up in the kinds of annoying bit hunting that has to be done in some RTS's with 'kill everything' scenarios that inevitably has you running after one unit hidden under trees or in a corner for 20 minutes after the battle is essentially over.

Were that a factual account and not a fantasy spun by Joey Goebbels to explain the cavalry prisoners the Germans took and cover up quality of their performance (not to mention the propaganda value in proving the worthlessness of the 'Untermensch') it might... From an article by M. Kamil Dziewanowski The account I am going to give you is of a cavalry charge in which I took part at the very beginning of World War II in September, 1939, in Poland. Although it all happened 59 years ago, it now seems like a century away! It may well be that this attack will rank in the history of warfare as the last great charge of cavalry. Is there another chance of the whole cavalry brigade, sword in hand, obeying the order "Gallop, march!"? The old Marshal Semion Budenny, former commander of the Soviet First Cavalry Army during the Civil War, would not agree with this. (In 1967, during an interview with The New York Times correspondent in Moscow, the old retired marshal, who is over 80 and still rides horses every day, was asked: " What role do you think cavalry will play during the next war? "Decisive!" answered Budenny without hesitation.) My story is a fragment of the fight the Polish armed forces put up, defending their country against the German invasion in September of 1939. I was a platoon commander in the 3rd squadron, 3rd Light Horse regiment. My place was on the extreme left of the charge, so that I was able to see the whole mass of men and horses wheel around to the gallop. A grand spectacle, never to be forgotten. The Suwalki Cavalry Brigade, stationed at the frontier of East Prussia, near the border of Lithuania, was composed of three cavalry regiments, one artillery regiment, and a group of light armored cars. Since September 1, it had been fighting night and day on the right flank of the Narew army group, whose task it was to stop the left flank of General von Kuechler's army, pressing on Warsaw from East Prussia. The group was pushed back by the sheer weight of German firepower and armor. The brigade, being more mobile than our infantry, and assigned to the right wing of the Narew group, was less affected by the initial German push; consequently, we had relatively small losses during the first days of fighting. Early on September 7, the brigade still stood almost 40 miles from the border of East Prussia. It was fighting a defensive battle against a light German army group, reinforced by the East Prussian cavalry division, which was the only great cavalry unit the Germans possessed at the time. The advantage of numerical superiority was definitely with the invaders. All we could throw in against their hundreds of tanks were about 20 light armored scout cars and two dozen antitank guns. In firepower, the Germans had a superiority of about nine to one. It seemed, therefore, that the Germans, because of their superiority in firepower and armor, would cut through the live mass of Polish cavalry like a knife through a loaf of bread. And yet, in spite of this unequal struggle, we refused to give up. We were fully aware of the fact that we had to adapt ourselves to new methods of warfare. After all, we had to make the best conditions imposed on us by war, not of our seeking. Each day, our techniques of fighting the enemy hiding behind armor improved. It was a technique of pursuit, of ambush, and of ruses. A machine that looked formidable at a distance began to show, especially at night, its impotence against daredevils who had the nerve to approach the tanks and throw gasoline-filled bottles. Others crept up to wreck the caterpillar treads of these tanks with bunches of hand grenades. During the first week, our antitank guns destroyed 31 enemy armored vehicles. We smashed at least a dozen of them with bottles and grenades. We took over 200 prisoners. Thus, step by step, from a proud cavalry brigade we had turned into an outfit of tank hunters. By night we lost ourselves in woods and marched over trackless ground to harass the enemy's armored columns at rest stops or on the march. We realized, however, that in the long run, it was all hopeless. The numbers and the firepower were against us. Moreover, the beautiful, sunny weather seemed to be conspiring with the invaders, helping the speedy progress of their armor facilitating the bombardment. The news grew steadily worse. On the evening of September 8, we heard over the radio that the Germans were closing in on Warsaw. We resolved to do our duty, come what might. Most of the time we were hungry, and for a week we had about three hours' sleep at night. Our poor horses, those beautiful chestnut horses of which we were so proud, could not be unsaddled for days on end. With fodder growing scarce, they were becoming dispirited and vicious, sheer skeletons. One desire was uppermost in our minds, and we discussed it in our short talks at officers' roll calls. Should modern warfare depose the cavalry, then we would make a dignified exit after just one more glorious tradition of our cavalry. Suddenly, on September 9, we received the following order: "To relieve German pressure on Warsaw and to give the capital time to organize its defenses, the Suwalki Brigade will make a diversion on the enemy's rear, blow up the bridge over the Narew River, near Tykocin, and tear up the railway track between the stations of Rypno and Fastow." At the officers' roll call, the tall, gray-haired, taciturn brigade Commander, General Podhorski, told us: "Gentlemen, we have received an important assignment. We are to sabotage the enemy communications. To execute our task, we must march all night over the field-paths and avoid main highways, and penetrate behind the enemy lines to reach the region of Tykocin. When on the spot, the engineering squadron will proceed with the wrecking jobs as ordered, while the rest of the brigade will act as a covering screen. Once the assignment is executed, we shall head eastward and plunge into the Bialowieza Forest. From then on we shall wage partisan warfare." Dead tired though we were, the news electrified us. The order of the brigadier was received with joy by officers and men alike. We felt that finally we would have the chance for action as a body of cavalry in a task for which we had been trained. On that very day, we made four ambushes against tanks and fought two skirmishes. We had little more than two hours of sleep. We moved off around 7p.m., after the sun set. Regiment after regiment, squadron after squadron, marched at a trot before our brigadier, a smart, proud, gray-haired veteran of the last war, as he reviewed his decimated, but still brigade. It was a grueling all-night march over broken ground, through thickets and over rugged terrain. We were protected by a dense screen of patrols, but we avoided human settlements, cut across roads, and stuck to the forests and untraveled ground. On September 9, an early dawn, misty and chilly, found the brigade at the northern edge of the large Zambrow forest, eight to nine miles from the bridge that we had to blow up. It was almost 6a.m. when the patrols suddenly reported to the brigadier a startling piece of intelligence: a battalion of enemy infantry was marching along the highway between Rypno and Fastow. Our sentries did not see any patrols, but reported that a column of transport trucks was moving parallel with the infantry. What an unexpected chance! The brigade commander was hard put for a decision. We were hidden in the woods about a mile and a half from the enemy. The condition for a surprise attack seemed ideal. It was now or never. On the other hand the risk was great. An attack by the entire brigade was bound to betray our purpose. Moreover, the firepower of a German infantry battalion was superior to that of our brigade. They seemed to have no armor but our patrols might have been mistaken. After a few moments of hesitation our commander made up his mind. He stopped his brigade and reversed the direction of our march. We briskly crossed the strip of woods separating us from the enemy. Our three regiments assembled at the edge of the woods. Between the enemy column on the highway and us ran a strip of stubble field over a mile long. Close by the highway was a stretch of dry meadowland. Since we stood on higher ground, we saw plainly what went on the highway. What a magnificent sight! A long sprent of troops wound its way lazily through a cloud of dust, while the motor transport swiftly flowed by the slowly marching infantry. The brigadier's command came fast: "The 1st Lancer regiment and the 3rd Light Horse regiment prepare for a charge. The 2nd Lancer regiment will be in reserve. The brigade's heavy machine-gun squadrons will get together and support the charge with their massed fire. The antitank squadron will screen the brigade from the west against a possible tank attack. The German's armor might be in the vicinity. Meanwhile, the engineering squadron is to take advantage of the charge to reach the bridge and the railway track as quickly as possible and blow them up." The regimental commanders promptly carried out their respective orders. The squadron pushed ahead to the edge of the forest, while the engineering squadron left us to do their job. We could watch it marching off at a brisk trot. Meanwhile, the squadrons stretched out in attack formation on the open field beyond the forest. The command "Trot, march" rang out. The enemy had not yet seen us, and the rising sun promised a clear day. The picture of the regiment emerging from the woods was so enchanting that it seemed unreal. What a perfect model for a battle painter! Where is our Vernet or Gericault! First we proceeded at a slow trot. The Germans still marched on, apparently unconcerned. Then suddenly our heavy machine-guns, hidden in the woods, gave tongue with a well-timed salvo. It went straight into the enemy column. The great adventure was on! The command "Draw sabres, gallop, march!" flew down the lines. Reins were gripped tighter. The riders bent forward in the saddles and they rushed forward like a mad whirlwind. Meanwhile, the surprised serpent of enemy infantry on the highway stopped. Soon the road became a scene of wild confusion. There were shouts, confused orders, and chance shots. We, however, continued our gallop. Fortunately, the first German shots went over our heads. We were then about 1500 feet from the highway and saw that under fire of our heavy machine-guns the Germans were becoming a frantic mob. Some enemy armored cars stopped, while others tried to ram their way through the confusion. Some of the enemy soldiers made a desperate attempt to make a stand in the ditch by the roadside. Other sought cover behind the transport wagons. Suddenly the fire from machine-guns began to score hits in our ranks. The van of the column, which had been nearing Rypno, seem to have mastered its panic; soon its fire began to tell. The first casualties fell from horses. We were then so close that we could see vague outlines of men in the cloud of dust. Suddenly our machine-guns ceased firing. They had to do it to avoid hitting us. Meanwhile, within a few seconds we reached the highway. Sabres and lances went to work fiercely. Some confused German infantrymen pushed off our sabre blows with their rifle butts. Some simply tried to cover their heads with their arms, but our lances reached even those who tried to hide between the wagons. The wave of our charge crossed the highway and pursued those who sought flight. Stray shots from the thickets kept falling into the mob on the highway, killing the enemy as well as us. The battle on the highway was practically over. The Germans began to surrender in large groups. A squadron of the 2nd Lancer regiment, which so far formed our reserve, was dispatched in pursuit of the fleeing enemy. We were out of breath and dog-tired, but elated by the dreamed-up victory. Moreover, it was paid for with no great loss of life. The panic-stricken Germans were decidedly poor marksmen. The horses fared the worst; we lost between 30 and 40 of them. We had a score or so of wounded men, but only three were killed. The morning sun was high when our bugler blew assembly. We came up slowly, driving our prisoners ahead of us. We took about 200 men, most of them insane from fright. The villages of Rypno and Fastow were aflame. They belched dense clouds of black smoke, which lazily rose to the morning sky. In withdrawing, the remnants of the German battalion did not miss the chance to set the torch to two innocent villages. Then, suddenly, from the north a sound of an explosion could be heard. In a few minutes there came another, and after a while two more shook the air. This was the signal that our engineers had done their job. The bridge over the Narew and the railway track had been blown up. M. Kamil DZIEWANOWSKI Is a professor emeritus of Contemporary Russian and East European History at Boston University and Associate of the Russian Research Center at Harvard. He has published several books: The Communist Party of Poland - An Outline of History, Harvard University Press, 1959 and 1976 1. A European Federalist - Joseph Pilsudski and Eastern Europe, 1918-1922, Hoover Institution, 19693. 20th Centry Poland, Columbia University Press, 1977 and 1979 2. A History of Soviet Russia, Prentice Hall, 1979, 1984, 1988, 1992, and in 1996 under a new title 3. A History of Soviet Russia and its Aftermath. 4. War at Any Price: A History of WWII in Europe, Prentice Hall, 1987, 1990 5. Alexander I - Russia's Mysterious Tsar, Hippocrene Books, 1990 6. One Life is not Enough, Marszalek, Torun, 1994 (in Polish) His article makes clear that he was a junior officer in the Polish cavalry at the beginning of the Second World War and participated in the cavalry charge he describes.

OFf the top of my head and in no particular order- Bridge Too Far Stalingrad The Bridge (available from Belle & Blade subtitled and letter boxed (kind of)) Night & Fog Kelly's Heroes Triumph of the Will (Ok, a pre-war movie, but if more had seen it, I think that the complacency of letting the corporal run wild might have been tempered a bit). Cross of Iron (damn the distributer for releasing it pan & scan) When Trumpets Fade Battleground (a crime that it's not available on DVD and that POS Battle of the Bulge is) Das Boot - any version

I would love to see the starting angle as a settable preference.. but honestly, ruining the game to have to tilt up to ge the same angels as CMBO?