George MC

Cheers for the excellent AAR Migo. Great read and interesting to read how you tackled this. It's worth noting there are three very distinct AI plans in this scenario. So what works in one play through might not work in another ;-) It sounds like you went into this with a sound plan. Your Tiger being KO’d by a JS-II does highlight how much luck can play a part in this tank vs tank combat. These JS-IIs just have to land one hit on a Tiger… It also highlights how incredibly lucky Carius and Kerscher were. For a challenge it's worth trying it with your main manoeuvre element being Carius and Kerscher with the others staying back in support. It highlights how skilled, and very, very lucky these two Tigers were… Thanks very much for your detailed and entertaining AAR. Good luck on your next play through.

Hi Heinrich505 Thanks for the feedback - hopefully you'll enjoy this as much as the Peiper or Strachwitz stuff we did for CMX1 Cheery! George

Aye really enjoying this

Aye it is that. And it's jammed packed full of crusties attending the Stopover festival! I'm hiding at the moment! TBH they all tend to stick to the town so you can easily escape the orange drunk men and wimmin. They never venture out off LOS of a pub or eating establishment

Ha! I'm just over the hill in Aviemore

Just uploaded one of my older CMSF scenarios (actually a 3 for 1). This is the orginal discussion thread: NATO TV 98-5 Steelers

Hi C3K, Baneman and Frankster65 Cheers for the positive vibes guys Really pleased this one has 'hit a mark' although not quite from 3km! I never tried doing that with my armour when playing this, gave em cover arcs out to 1800m! I'll try that next time through I reckon. Re Frankster65's comments regarding the map. I'm pleased you appreciate the detail as I was aiming for super realistic. I'm pleased that the time, patience and effort put into that final detailing has paid off. BTW the landscape this scenario plays out on is the real deal. If interested here is the actual period map of the area which I used to create the map and on which the final stages of this action were played out. I had to make allowances for roads etc as I hate these zig-zag roads (with a passion!) as a/ they really mess with pathfinding and are a pain to move units down b/ they look ****e. So it takes wee while to map roads that are straight/45 degrees to 'fit' with the overall 'feel' of the original road layout.

Units following an AI Plan will tend to 'face' the direction of their next order. You can use this to ensure the next AI plan order is in the direction you want me to face. e.g. have an AI unit pull back, but have the movement order painted beyond where you want them to eventually take position. Then have them, on the next order, move up to the position. It takes a bit of fiddling to get right, and it's still a fudge at the end of the day. It's on my personal 'wish list' to have an AI planning command that tells em what direction to face.

Sure they'll find a solution to the problem. Odd one for sure.

For those of you who have found the JS-IIs a challenge this report from a contemporary German account might be some consolation: The September 1944 issue of the Nachrichtenblatt der Panzertruppen included a report from a Tiger-Kompanie that had knocked out numerous Josef Stalin tanks in a short period: The Tiger Kompanie was ordered to throw out the enemy who penetrated into a wood, and then continue to advance. About 12:15 hours, together with an Infanterie-Batallion the Tiger Kompanie started to attack. The thick forest caused extremely poor visibility (50 meters), and a narrow trail forced the Tiger-Kompanie to advance in a single row. The Russian infantry fled their positions as soon as the Tigers appeared. The anti-tank guns, which were pulled forward into position by the enemy within three-quarters of an hour after entering the woods, were quickly destroyed in spite of the difficulty of seeing the targets. Some of the anti-tank guns were destroyed by hits and some were rolled over. Numerous undamaged anti-tank guns fell into our hands. After the lead Zug of the Tiger Kompanie advanced 2 kilometers through the forest, the Zug leader suddenly noticed knocked-down trees and saw a large muzzle-break (Josef Stalin) directly in front of him. He immediately gave the fire command: "Panzergranate! Cupola sight! Fire!" At the same time he was hit twice by 4.5 cm anti-tank gun shells that robbed him of his sight. In the interim, a second Tiger of the Zug driving through the woods pulled up on line with the Zug leader's Tiger. In spite of poor visibility, the Zug leader started the firefight at a range of 35 meters. In response, the Josef Stalin tank pulled back behind a small hill. In the meantime, the second Tiger had taken the lead and fired three shot at the enemy tank. When the round was fired, the Tiger itself was hit by a 12.2 cm shell on the front below the radio operator's section. Apparently this armor-piercing shell didn't penetrate through because the Tiger was standing at an angle from the target. The enemy tank was knocked out of action by a shot which penetrated the gun. A second Josef Stalin tank attempted to cover the first as it pulled back. During a short firefight, one of these two Tigers hit the second tank under the gun. This round penetrated, immediately setting the enemy tank on fire. The rate of fire of the Josef Stalin tanks was comparatively slow. The Kompanie commander made the following observations that were derived from their experience in fighting Josef Stalin tanks: When a Tiger appears, most Josef Stalin tanks turn away and attempt to avoid a firefight. In many cases, the Josef Stalin tanks let themselves engage in a firefight only at long range (over 2000 meters) and also only when they themselves are in favorable positions on the edge of a wood, village, or ridgeline. The enemy crews lean toward evacuating their tank immediately after the first shot is fired at them. In all cases the Russian strived to prevent a Josef Stalin tank from falling into our hands and with all means available attempted to tow the tank away or to blow it up. The Josef Stalin can also be knocked out, even if a penetration of the frontal armor can't be achieved at long range. (A different Tiger-Abteilung reported that the front of a Josef Stalin tank can be penetrated by a Tiger only at ranges less than 500 meters.) An attempt should be made to gain the flank or the rear of the Josef Stalin tank and destroy it with concentrated fire. In addition, a firefight with Josef Stalin tanks should not be undertaken in less than Zug strength. Employment of single Tigers means their loss. It has been proven to be useful, after the first hits are registered, to blind the Josef Stalin by firing Sprenggranaten (high explosive shells). Remarks by the Generalinpekteur der Panzertruppen (Heinz Guderian): These experiences are in accordance with those of other Tiger units and are correct. In regard to point 4 - It would be desirable for the opponent to have observed the same attempt by all of our Tiger crews. "An undestroyed Tiger may never fall into enemy hands!" This principle must be achieved by every crew member by exemplary operational readiness. With regard to points 5 and 6 - At a time when there are 12.2 cm tank guns and 5.7 cm anti-tank guns on the Eastern Front, just like 9.2 anti-tank/anti-aircraft guns on the Western Front and in Italy, the Tiger can no longer disregard the tactical principles that apply to the other types of Panzers. Also, just like other Panzers, a few Tigers can't drive up on a ridgeline to observe the terrain. In just such a situation, three Tigers received direct hits and were destroyed by 12.2 cm shells, resulting in all but two of the crew members being killed. The principles of Panzer tactics - that Panzers should only cross a ridgeline together, rapidly (leaf-frogging by bounds) and under covering fire, or else the Panzers must drive around the height - were definitely not unknown in this Tiger-Abteilung . Statements like "thick fur", "impregnable", and the "security" of the crews of the Tigers, which have become established phrases by other units and also partially within the Panzertruppe , must be wiped out and debunked. Instead, it is especially important for Tiger units to pay direct attention to the general combat principles applicable for tank-versus-tank combat. In regard to Point 7 - This statement is correct; however, three Tigers should not flee from five Josef Stalin tanks only because they can't start the firefight at full Zug strength. Cases will also occur which an entire Zug isn't always available. Many times tank-versus-tank combat will be decided, not by the number of tanks, but much more by superior tactics. In regard to Point 8 - In connection with this it may be stated that the Josef Stalin tanks not only can be penetrated from the flanks and rear by Tigers and Panthers but also by the Pz.Kpfw.IV and the Sturmgeschütze.

You can see new scenarios appearing on the bottom left. If it's new stuff you are after?

+1

Good point - some of the save turns take a few minutes to save.

I expected a discussion on this - juts not on German grammar! Who'd have thought Cheers Lethaface - I thought it was an interesting document covering armoured tactics and approaches at the small unit level e.g. company+

Hi Phil Sorry can't help. I've a PC. I've not heard anyone else having the same issue with this scenario (or anyother large ones - it's a similar size to some of the stuff that shipped with the game) - although I'm not sure who downloaded it and uses a MAC.

That link does have images. I created an account to take a peek. However it's a pretty tight forum so I can't see full size pictures - just the thumbnails... And they are too small to make much of the wording out.

Hi Lille Thanks for the update. Good effort on your victory

Hi Agusto Oh they would be good However I'm not running anything as powerful. In fact I thought my rig was pretty average. Specs are: MOBO Z87-GD65 Gaming NVIDIA GTX 970 (it's a pretty decent card I think?) Windows 7 64bit Intel i5-4670K @3.40Ghz 16GB RAM Samsung SSD 840 Game settings are set to 'best'

My assumption is get so close that neither side has the advantage e.g. spotting. If you are that close you'll surprise them as much as they'll surprise you - also limits their field of fire and number of targets one enemy unit can engage i.e. it's more 1:1?

Thanks for the clarification Jargotn I've been hunting about trying to find an electronic version of the original pamphlet. I managed to find some collector selling a copy but it only has colour scans of the front cover and several pages inside.

I wondered about this myself. It's either an oblique reference to enjoying success i.e. relaxing and switching off (in mountaineering you have a similar concept when completing your climb and/or getting to the top is only half the battle - you still have to get off so you don't 'switch off' or relax till you are back down and safe i.e. at the car or hut). Or perhaps it does refer to collecting booty - rations, souvenirs, watches, rings etc, or plain curiosity - seeing what the other side have in gear/look like or just admire your handiwork...

He! You and me both

I've started using move or slow for my AFVs when moving as a unit on the attack (with overwatch) at close range they engage and fire and still hit stuff. When attacking over open ground then yes it's charge forward into cover (with other units in overwatch). I've also started to mass units more e.g. use a company as a company rather than small packets of tanks. It works pretty effectively!

This document has been bouncing around on the internet for a while now. I've just rediscovered it and it makes for some interesting reading - allowing for the usual panzer hyperbole vs untermenche rubbish - as it contains many tactical tips that are applicable to the CMRt battlefield. I think it's an early Ost front document - perhaps 1942, maybe early 43. This is the full text which I've taken from the FieldGrau website (worth visiting in it's own right). The link is HERE If you'd like the text in the original German I found this LINK. I've highlighted the lessons I've found really useful on the CMRT battlefield. AUTHOR's PREFACE The Panzer Regiment is, by reason of its firepower, protection and mobility the main fighting power of the Division. Its strength lies in unexpected, concentrated and determined attack; aggressive leadership and daring operations. FORWARD Combat in Russia has shown once again that for us, in action against the Communists, it is not so much the kind or number of our tanks but the spirit and skill on the tank soldiers that count. Only by these factors are German tanks always, even in Russia, victorious. This exemplary combat spirit can however count for little as the weapons speed, armor or number of tanks in achieving success, if they are not led and employed by fully competent officers. Superior tactical leadership in battle is a prerequisite when one desires few, or better still, no casualties. The purpose of this volume is to collect the experiences of the veteran front-line combat leaders of our Regiments in action, and pass it on in simple and understandable form to our junior officers. 1. Before any attack acquaint yourself with the ground. Use the information provided by other units or by the map. Share this information with your subordinate commanders. Exact information and correct estimation of the terrain will be the decisive difference between victory and defeat. 2. No armored attack is so fast, even under the most pressing situation, that you do not have time to put subordinate leaders into the picture about the tactical situation, mission, and anything else which may impact on the coming action. Losses due to over-hasty action are your responsibility and place the success of the mission in jeopardy. 3. Only careful combat reconnaissance can protect you from surprise. Protect to your flanks as well as the front. Observation to all sides is the duty of every commander. ALWAYS KEEP YOUR EYE OUT FOR THE ENEMY! 4. Your entire ability in combat must be used to make a constant appreciation of the situation. Only in this manner can you make the correct decision during the decisive seconds and issue short, clear orders without delay. This is the kind of leadership for which you are responsible. 5. Iron radio discipline is a prerequisite of good leadership, particularly when your only method of command is radio. In the point company for instance, the trail platoons should not use the radio at all except in emergency, leaving the net clear for the point platoon leader. 6. You must lead with strength. At least two tanks must be forward, and the trail platoons must be held far enough forward to support the lead platoon. The more guns that fire in the first minute, the quicker the enemy will be defeated and the fewer losses you will suffer. 7. When breaking cover, do it quickly and together. The more targets the enemy is shown simultaneously, the harder his fire control and distribution will be, and the more guns you will have in effect on the enemy. 8. In the attack drive as fast as you can. At slow speed you can see and shoot only a little better than at high, and are much more likely to be hit. For a tank there should be only two speeds: the half (for firing!) and all out forward. This is the basic principal of tank combat! 9. When antitank weapons are encountered at long or medium ranges, you must first return fire and then maneuver against them. First make a firing halt in order to bring effective fire to bear - then commit the bulk of the company to maneuver on the enemy with the continued support of one platoon. 10. When antitank weapons are encountered at close range, stopping is suicide. Only immediate attack at the highest speed with every weapon firing will have success and reduce losses. 11. In combat against the antitank guns you may never - even under the protection of strong fire support - allow a single platoon to attack alone. Antitank weapons are not employed singly. Remember - lone tanks in Russia are lost! 12. You must continually keep a broad interval between vehicles. This splits the enemy's defensive fire and complicates his fire control. Narrow intervals must be avoided at all costs, especially in critical situations, or it will cost you losses. 13. When an impassable obstacle, for instance a minefield or antitank ditch, is encountered you must immediately and without hesitation give the order to withdraw into the nearest cover. Standing still, in open sight, trying to carry on the attack, has in such circumstances no sense and will only cost you losses. Your consideration on how to make a new start will be best made in the safety of cover. 14. When your attack must pass potential enemy tank positions, for instance a woodline, you should either pass by them so closely that you are inside their minimum range, or remain so far away that you are outside their maximum effective range. 15. Enemy tanks should not be attacked directly, because then they see you and know your strength before you can kill them. More often, you should avoid them until you can move into favorable firing positions, and surprise them from the flank or rear. Repelled enemy tank assaults must be aggressively pursued. 16. A strongpoint, for instance a small village or artillery battery position, whenever possible should be attacked from different directions simultaneously in order to split enemy defensive fire and deceive him about the true location and direction of the attack. In this manner your breakthrough will be easier and your losses fewer. 17. Always prepare dug in positions and camouflage against the possibility of air or artillery attack. Being sorry afterwards is no excuse for losses taken by these causes. 18. Ammunition should not always be conserved; in the decisive moment, if you want to save casualties, you may expend ammunition at exceptionally high rates (for instance, an emergency attack.) 19. Never split your combat power; that is to say, do not employ parts of the company in such a manner that they cannot support each other. When your attack has two objectives you should attack first one and then the other with all weapons. In this way you will more certainly end up with both objectives in hand and fewer casualties. 20. Support from artillery fire or dive bombers must be used immediately, that is to say, while the fire is still hitting the objective. Afterward, when the fire has stopped it is too late. You must know that mostly such fires only produce a suppressing effect, not a destroying one. It is better to risk a friendly shell or bomb than to charge into an active antitank defense. 21. Other weapons and arms, cross-attached to you, should not be misused. Do not use them for purposes for which they were not intended, for example, do not use tank destroyers as assault guns, or armored infantry as tanks, or recon or engineer troops as infantry. 22. Unarmored or lightly armored units attached to you must be protected from any unnecessary losses until they are needed for their own operational tasks, for which reason they were attached to you. 23. Cross-attached units placed under your command are not your servants, but your guests. You are answerable to supply them and share everything they need. Don't just use them on guard duty! In this way they will work better and more loyally for you when you need them. And that will be often! 24. In combined operations with infantry or armored infantry, you must make certain that the arms stick close together; only so can they help each other and achieve success. Which of the two is leading is a secondary matter; what must be known is that it is the intention of the enemy to separate them and that you must prevent this in all circumstances. Your battlecry must be "Protect the Infantry!" and the infantry's battlecry is "Protect the Tanks!" 25. You and your soldiers must always concentrate on your combat mission, i.e. "the bridge," and you may not turn aside, for example, to an enemy on your flank, unless he is actually dangerous to the accomplishment of your mission. Then you must attack and destroy him. 26. After a victorious battle; i.e. the seizure of a bridge or the occupation of a village, keep your helmets on. That is to say, prepare for a counterattack which will certainly come, perhaps in a different place than you expect. Later you can collect the spoils of victory. 27. In a defense or security mission place your tanks so that not only their firepower, but also their shock action can be brought into play. Also, leave only a few tanks in stationary firing positions. Keep most as mobile reserves under cover. Tanks defend aggressively! 28. Against strong enemy resistance, there is no point in continuing to attack. Every failed attack only costs more casualties. Your effort must always be to hold the enemy with only weak forces, in order to use mass of your strength at another, weaker place, breakthrough, and destroy the enemy by surprise attack in the rear or flank. 29. Never forget that your soldiers do not belong to you, but to Germany. Personal glory hunting and senseless dare-deviltry lead only to exceptional cases to success, but always cost blood. In battle against the Soviet- Russians you must temper your courage with your judgement, your cunning, your instincts and your tactical ability. Only then will you have the prerequisites to be victorious in battle and only then will your soldiers look on you with loyalty and respect and always stand by you in untiring combat readiness. 30. The panzer division in modern warfare today holds the former place of cavalry as the decisive arm of combat. Tank officers must carry on in the tradition of the cavalry, take up its aggressive spirit on behalf of the Panzer arm. Therefore take note, as a basic combat principle, of Marshall Blucher's motto, "FORWARD AND THROUGH!" (but with intelligence).

Thanks Lille Fiskerby Really pleased you are enjoying it and thanks for the kudos. I've an hour and half left on the clock on my own recent playthrough. I'm doing better this time as I'm taking my time. I've also attacked down a different avenue (not without it's surprises) and I was caught out by my own AI Plan! I rediscovered this German armoured tactics document - many of the 'top tips' contained in it suddenly make sense on this map. http://www.feldgrau.com/pnzfwd.html