RAMADI (Iraq): Mother of All MOUT Maps

[LongLeftFlank]

No sweat; I learned something new which is what I really do this all for anyway.  Seems like the neighborhood you matched wasn't the very hottest fight but wev....

A black metal finish should be readily obtainable from somewhere in the game system - CMFI perhaps? There's also a good photo in one of the Arab clips of the logo on the back of the turret, but I guess it isn't much help since there aren't turreted Humvees in game. I'd be tempted to reskin a BRDM or sumfink.

Looks like the police uniforms are in fact police troops while the CSF are in camo. Just who the press were riding with. Ryujin also did an IA jundi mod for me, praise be upon him.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I still haven't really got to grips with mods TBH, but what I've seen of them is very impressive, a couple of the screenies in the CM:BN thread really blew me away. 

[LongLeftFlank]

So back to Ramadi. Oddly, there is only a single terse AAR covering the vicious 2/4 street brawls of April 6-7, including the subject matter of the JOKER THREE scenario. I guess they had better things to do than write reports... 

 https://wikileaks.org/irq/report/2004/04/IRQ20040406n329.html

2/4MAR WAS ATTACKED WITH SAF AND RPG IVO THE GOVERNOR'S COMPOUND. THERE ARE APPROX 60-70 IZ GATHERED AROUND THE GOVERNOR'S COMPOUND. AT 061520DAPR: FIRE FIGHT IS STILL UNDERWAY.

062123APR04: 1BCT, 1-34, 2/4 COMPLETING CONTACT. ENEMY REPORTED TO BE USING DISCIPLINED, AIMED FIRE. CURRENT KIA/DAMAGE: 11X KIA, 9X WIA; 16X EN KIA, UNK EN WIA. DAMAGE: 1X BRADLEY IFV, 1X M1A1 TANK (DAMAGED BY 4X RPG). FURTHER INFORMATION IS PENDING. CCIR# 10 UPDATE 070144APR04: 12X KIA/22X WIA

Also, whose dead dog mod are you using?

https://wikileaks.org/irq/report/2004/04/IRQ20040409n244.html

1-77AR REPORTS AN IED IN SIDE OF A DEAD DOG AT MC20655836 1.5KMS NORTH OF ROUTE PEGGY ON MSR TAMPA. THE DESCRIPTION IS A DOG CARCASS WITH WIRES COMING OUT OF THE HEAD. PATROL FROM TF 1-77 HAS THE SITE SECURED AND BYPASSING TRAFFIC AROUND THE IED. C/1-26 WILL ESCORT EOD TO THE SITE.

[Combatintman]

On ‎25‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 8:39 AM, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Some of those reports make for harrowing reading.....Poor Mosul. 

Thanks for your continuing help LLF, it really is massively appreciated.....I'll open a separate thread for Mosul now and leave you and Ramadi in peace. (Hmmmm.....Probably not quite the right word, but you know what I mean!  )

PS - Thanks especially for the mod tip, that would work perfectly with my Core Force, which as you know are Syrian SF.....Are black Humvees available anywhere by any chance?

Stop stop stop - the CTS (which is what you're replicating) do not wear the Iraqi Police uniform. It is either black stuff or their own camouflage uniform which does not feature the colours blue and white. Just Google for images using the search term 'Iraqi CTS Uniform' and see how many results you get back with the blue and white Federal Police uniform (two at a quick count).

[LongLeftFlank]

Yup, realized my error fairly quickly. I really just wanted to flag the Ryujin mods for S2.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

No worries guys, it's my firm belief that mods should be left to the player to use, or not use, so I won't be including any. 

[LongLeftFlank]

Postcards from Ramadi. First a pano, facing east. The Marines arrive in the lower left corner. 

I maxed up the settings on my old Dell to take this still of the stalled DEVIL 6 convoy.

I toyed with cooking off a small IED to start and letting the player execute his own 360 action drill, but have decided against, for the moment. Plus it has a high chance to inflict BLUE casualties straight off. 

[LongLeftFlank]

Hmm, is someone suggesting we shouldn't take this road?

Withy BLUE and RED starting setups more or less complete, and DEVIL SIX under fairly steady but ranged small arms fire (assuming everyone stays put), it's time to do some AI movement.

With local militias having sprung the trap, with IEDs at both ends, but not being strong enough to close assault SGT Henry's Army squad, insurgents truck in reinforcements. They also scramble to block the unexpectedly quick arrival of Marines from the north.

But trying to drive straight up Michigan into the guntrucks doesn't work out so well. The ghost of Graebner strikes again.... 

And the next attempt doesn't work either. Sigh. 

This also gave me an idea: the AI editor should let us paint zones for moving groups to *avoid* in each order, as well as zones to move to. Add that to the brainjar wish list.... 

[Erwin]

Yeah, that's the problem with mines, IED's and immediate "no warning" HE bombardments.  May be realistic, but so, so frustrating for the player esp if you are in WEGO as the units can't react, and the player can't do anything to make em do what is obviously immediately necessary.

Perhaps the best solution is to warn the player either in the briefing so they know what is coming, and/or clearly mark locations or areas where mines/IED's are suspected or known.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Erwin

[Sgt.Squarehead]

A 'Don't Go There' terrain marker for the AI would be a godsend (as you know it would be painted straight down the middle of streets a lot)! 

 

[Erwin]

I wasn't thinking of an AI "don't go there" - altho' it would be great to stop troops blindly advancing into a known ambush/mine/IED "situation".  Given the current game's limitation, it's the designer's responsibility to create a situation where that can be avoided. 

Hence my earlier remarks about the briefing telling players that there will be an immediate barrage on Turn one (ie: with no warning shots) and they need to get units in cover "immediately".

Literally marking minefields or approx. IED locations is also important in games like CMSF where keeping casualties to absolute minimum (if any) is vital.  It's easy to lose an entire team or more in one blast, and that can effectively end the mission when one may only have a platoon or two to start with.  On the other hand if one makes a dumb move knowing there are mines or IED's nearby, then yes, one should lose.

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

It's always tricky to balance these things, but I'd agree the onus is on the designer to give due warning, especially if casualties are a primary victory condition.  But how much warning should one give? 

This is another reason why testing is so valuable, it's not just for ironing out bugs. 

I suspect LLF & I may be referring to a slightly different issue though, the difficulty of getting the AI to route units promptly and sensibly through complex urban terrain.....I'd strongly recommend you try scripting a platoon attack on this map, to see just how trying it can be at times.

 

Edited March 30, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Erwin]

"...see just how trying it can be at times."

You crazy man.   I KNOW how trying it must be to design a CM2 scenario.  That's why I LOVE you dedicated guys who enjoy hitting your heads against a brick wall repeatedly...  for months...  and months... 

I am merely a gamer hobbyist who enjoys playing the game, mate. 

Cheers...

[LongLeftFlank]

Well noted Erwin on the 'unfairness' of hidden mines and booby traps to a player whose VC rides largely on minimizing friendly losses.

But that is *exactly* the real life conundrum faced by Coalition commanders in "low intensity" ops, and most of the point of my Ramadi series. Racing impatiently along backstreets and systematically kicking down every door carries a tactical risk; a heavy hand is as bad as a passive one. 

While sending dead or maimed 'Crusaders' home is the core RED objective, and secondarily to demonstrate to sympathetic journalists that 'hearts and minds' is a farce. 

As IntMan will presumably attest (pbuh), military staffs need to spend *at least* as much time studying Ramadis and Basrahs as they do the Stalingrad week at Falluja or the storming of Mosul. These wars are won or lost a day at a time, a bomb blast at a time. And if you can manage your losses and attrite the enemy snipers, bomb-makers and logisticians, eventually the enemy and its host population runs out of martyrs and patience. The clock of popular support  is ticking for them too. Human beings would rather live in peace.

 

[Erwin]

",,,that is *exactly* the real life conundrum..."

That's why we bump heads on the "realism often being NOT fun, vs playability and fun, even if less realistic", dichotomy.

That's also why I have low confidence that Mosul can be liberated by the Iraqis without massive US involvement (even if downplayed). 

[LongLeftFlank]

9 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

A 'Don't Go There' terrain marker for the AI would be a godsend (as you know it would be painted straight down the middle of streets a lot)! 

 

In some spots I can also solve it by laying rubble or marsh (sewage) tiles or walls to obstruct the road. But that blocks BLUE movement too, unless the walls are then demolished (eg with IEDs). It is also visually ugly.

[LongLeftFlank]

59 minutes ago, Erwin said:

",,,that is *exactly* the real life conundrum..."

That's why we bump heads on the "realism often being NOT fun, vs playability and fun, even if less realistic", dichotomy.

That's also why I have low confidence that Mosul can be liberated by the Iraqis without massive US involvement (even if downplayed). 

Well from a pure gaming POV I don't correlate fun with body count or number of loud bangs per minute (not implying you do here although our tastes differ).

I have more 'fun' with the tactical problem of winkling out a single sniper using a deployed squad than I do madly scrambling to stop a full company of pixelgrunts from banzai charging or crawl-of-deathing the moment I turn away. And truth be told I just dont have the patience for endless WeGo turns - the novelty of that is long gone for me. 

For CM WWII, company and battalion combined arms actions are still interesting and authentic, and I can live with the ahistorical body counts (e.g. most of those guys didnt actually get hit, just bugged out). 

For CMSF Mideast, actions at that scale are largely either cakewalks for BLUE or else play out as utterly ahistorical bloodbaths due to the limitations of this game engine and AI  - pure games that bear no relation to history*. JOKER THREE is a rare historical exception, where 100+ troops a side  engage on roughly equal terms.

WICKED WEDNESDAY is about half that size, and I hope playable in (paused) RT in a single sitting while maintaining reasonable control of forces (and losses).

* By the way, JasonC is sadly gone from these fora but still holds forth periodically on many of these same topics at BGG. I more or less share his views. 

https://boardgamegeek.com/spsearch.php?objectid=1&objecttype=region&q=&searchauthor=JasonC+&searchfield=all&displayresults=full&B1=Submit

[LongLeftFlank]

Yet more AI testing.

"When are these buttheads gonna learn?" Sergeant Henry mutters as he puts more .223 rounds through the Hilux.

That route don't work neither, turd blossom.

.. Yup, it would be *really* nice to have the "avoid these zones, act like they're marsh tiles or sumfink" map paint command for AI orders.

[Erwin]

"Well from a pure gaming POV I don't correlate fun with body count or number of loud bangs per minute (not implying you do here although our tastes differ)."

I do understand where you're coming from.  I am not an action FPS fan (altho' they can be fun for change).  Am more a fan of WITPAE.

I get quite upset(!) when I make an error and half a dozen guys just get killed.  I do everything I can to minimize friendly casualties as I identify with my guys and always ask myself what do I think someone in a particular situation would do in RL when I give orders.  It's why I love CMSF.  It makes the WW2 titles tough for me as higher casualties seem to be accepted as the norm in the WW2 titles - and I am unsure if that's true in proportional terms.

It's also the reason that I ask about SOP's and try to understand the Brit Assault and Support formation concept.

But, I also know that RL can be very boring and irritating.  And I play for escapism and to have fun.  Hence my concerns about mines and IED's that can "ruin" a scenario when there is nothing one can do about em.  I understand the concept of the randomness and chaos of war.  I just want the illusion that my brilliant tactics etc are worth something in an entertainment product.

 

 

[LongLeftFlank]

Ok, after about 7 hours of troubleshooting I can finally get most of the JTJ fighters intact to their debarkation points. But then instead of occupying buildings they dash through alleys and... sad heap of butchered meat.

Another 2 hours of tweaking, and finally DEVIL SIX has to pick up his own rifle. Things getting tense for GI Joe.... 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Does the map orientation of a given building (ie: the facing in the editor) affect the AI's decision making process when deciding how to enter I wonder.....If there is more than one door will it go for the 'front' by default (they always seem to want to, don't they)? 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[LongLeftFlank]

Hmm, I hadn't noticed that specifically. It may have to do with whether you've set the waypoint into a square that is totally vs partially covered by the building. In the latter case it *seems* like the TacAI favors entering at the square you selected, if you follow. 

In playtesting AI plans, I also rediscovered something I'd forgotten (haven't played this game since 2013 remember). Each unit in an AI group gets one destination square assigned at random, and if that square is not passable or reachable, it just "dumps" the order(s) and sits there. It doesn't seek another square. So for vehicles, it's important to give them clear squares, not containing buildings, walls or other impassable terrain. Don't recall if this changed for the WW2 engine iterations.

[LongLeftFlank]

.... Things are starting to whir and hum now with WICKED WEDNESDAY. I have 3 distinct AI plans, and have also 'overlapped'  the arrivals of both sides' mobile forces, so you can get everything from a desperate Alamo fight by DEVIL SIX to a 'mad minute' when two groups run head on into each other. Replayability should be high.

I may also release a variant version which has US Army forces stand in for Marines, so those who own only the base game can sample a little Ramadi hell....

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I'd noticed that vehicles seem to use a specific square, but hadn't realised it was one square per unit across the board.  Presumably if there are more squares in a painted zone than units it will randomise the units between them and if there are fewer squares than units, they will double up in some squares? 

If so this presents opportunities that I hadn't previously considered (might also make me want to re-write everything I've done to date though).   

Looking forward to your scenario, both to play it and then to look at how you achieved it in the editor. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[LongLeftFlank]

I am pretty sure multiple units can get (randomly) assigned the same square regardless of how many of each. Also, if you select an AI destination square in the rear of a building the TacAI will still have the unit move to the front of the building.

Also, my SOP is to have AI units Advance (quick) to ground level with one order then Hide. The next order has them Assault (slow) to upper floors or rooftops (don't paint squares, or they'll try to change buildings!). That way they can sometimes get the drop on an enemy across the street.