Best soldiers of WWII?

[Gyrene]

Ok...This is a really big can of worms I'm about to open here, but I'd like everyone's opinion on what their decisions are based on.

To give some fairness and keep the flaming down, please chime in with two choices for each category:

My choices

1) Best convential infantry

-The Rikusentai: Japanese Special Landing Forces, the nastiest foe ever faced by the USMC, and man for man probably the most tenacious, disciplined and loyal soldier ever. Russians surrendered, Germans surrendered, the Japanese didn't.

-US Marines: Might seem like the obvious choice for a guy named Gyrene, but this is not a decision made lightly. Beyond the ridiculously hopeless situation at Wake Island, the USMC was undefeated in WWII and every battle it participated in was a desperate struggle against a superbly skilled and even more desperate opponent. Can you honestly picture the SS or the Red Guards wading across 700 yards of coral reef at Tarawa?

2)Best Special Forces Soldiers

-The Special Air Service: They pratically invented the genre, tiny teams of men in jeeps and trucks virtually crippled the Luftwaffe in North Africa and caused damage and headaches far far beyond their numbers. The doctrine they developed in WWII changed the notion of "Special Operations" forever.

-The Gurkhas: Tibetan volunteers, mountain people who became jungle fighters the Japanese were afraid of! Enough said.

These are my choices, notice one thing in common among these four: They were all fighting and excelling outside their "natural" home enviroments, I was going to pick the Finnish Sisu over the Gurkhas, but the fact that they were fighting in terrain they grew up in tipped my opinion.

Gyrene

[Abbott]

Let us not forget the German troops. One of the finest fighting forces to have ever been fielded in any war.

The British also have long traditions and solid histories of fielding excellent men. Not many men from any land could have endured what these fine fellows did in Burma.

I have no knowledge of the Aussies, New Zealanders or Canadian troops that were fielded, someone else will have to speak for them. However men are men no matter what language they speak or country they are born unto. I also have heard stories (from family friends/veterans) that say, “The Italians fielded some of the most dangerous men that they had ever met”.

As far as American soldiers fielded in the Second World War, I would say it was the National Guardsman. What branch they served in made no difference to these fighters. They were shopkeepers, teachers, carpenters, farmers, factory workers and so on. They had no stake in a military career nor did they want one. They were there to do a job, get it done and go back to their jobs and families period. They did just that.

[ 05-01-2001: Message edited by: Abbott ]

[Brian Smith]

My nomination (with patriotic influence):

Best infantry - Australian soldiers. Silent and crafty in the jungle (deeply respected by the Japanese whose arses they kicked), tenacious and inventive in the desert (deeply respected by the Germans who feared their night patrolling). Mostly volunteers with great bushcraft and ingenuity and mostly excellent shots.

smith

[Stalin's Organ]

I'm with Abbot on this - Soldiers of all nationalities did what they had to.

Yes I CAN imagine almost anyone else wading 700 yds to get to the beaches - what was the alternative?

And the Aussies weren't in the Dessert long enough to be feared by anyone - they left to surrender at Singapore. Their poorly trained militia put up a hell of a fight in New Guinea, but were helped by terrain and poor Jap supply and tactics just as the Empire troops had those things agaisnt them in Malaya.

New Zealand soldiers were supposedly quite flash, but still mutinied in 1943 and were fought out and over-cautious by late 1944.

Audie Murphy was US Infantry - which got the worst recruits and the poorest training of all the US combat arms & stuill managed to do amazing stuff.....

[Stixx]

I'll have to disagree with your opinion of Australian Infantry Stalin.

To my knowledge Australia has never feilded Militia. In WW II we did field conscripts but a militia they where not.

I have never heard nor read a single bad remark about Australian Soldiers any where.

Off topic here.

The Australian Light Horse saved thousands of British and US lives in 1 battle (Bershiba) in WW I.

In Vietnam they US asked the Australian SAS to train their own special forces.

[Gersen]

Hi all,

Firstly, as a first time poster (lurker?) I'd like to congratulate all those guys/gals that make this such a great board to visit. But like many 'lurkers', if I don't have anything to add, I don't say anything....

This topic caught my eye though. Well said Abbott, I think that sums it up. It's a bit like true courage...it is my opion that those that are truely 'sh*t' scared when they do something extrodinary, are the true heroes.

For the record my vote goes down to the Australian / New Zealand digger. No special forces unit, just the plain old infantryman. Most historical records class them highly. Rommel considered them the elite of the Commonwealth forces. They held Tobruk and stopped the Japanese in New Guinea. In WWI they suffered the highest casualties (per capita) of any other force as they were used as 'shock troops' by the British. Now I'm pretty sure on that one, so go easy if I'm wrong . Not that I'm saying they did it with out help though...

Lastly, I'll admit it...I'm a proud Aussie...

Cheers,

John

Ohh, just read your post Stalin. Sorry mate gotta disagree there. Have a little read about The Anzac occupation of Tobruk and/or the battle of El Alemain where Aussies and New Zealanders featured heavily. Or perhaps you'd rather take Rommel's word for it . Don't quite get the bit about conscripts...

In respects to Vietnam, from what I've read the Digger used very different tactics to the GI. An example of this philosophy is seen in the service rifle of the time, a semi-auto with no auto mode based on the Belgium FN. Full auto was seen as an waste in the stealthy jungle contacts and unneccesary. But then again I wasn't there...

[ 05-01-2001: Message edited by: Gersen ]

[goodwood]

Stixx, Australia certainly did have militia troops fighting in PNG. The Defence Act 1903 (or there abouts) only allowed Aussie militia to serve in Australian territories. If my memory serves me collectly, the Victorian 3 & 39 Bns were militia units. They fought with mixed results. Maybe wrong the 39 Bn fought with distinction on the Kokoda Trail.

Hey pacestick help me out

Also I don't think Australia had concription during the WW2,however maybe confusing this fact with the WW1

[ 05-01-2001: Message edited by: goodwood ]

[Stixx]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Also I don't think Australia had concription during the WW2,however maybe confusing this fact with the WW1

[ 05-01-2001: Message edited by: goodwood ][/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well i stand corrected. Thats not the first time i've been wrong.

To the best of my knowledge Australia did conscript infantry in WW II. I can gaurantee they did in Vietnam someone please correct one of here

Well said Gersen. There are plenty of individual acts of greatness from many different army's. On a whole though the record books show it's hard to go pass an Aussie.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:

[QB}

And the Aussies weren't in the Dessert long enough to be feared by anyone - they left to surrender at Singapore.

[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry but I simply can't let this comment go without reply. The Aussies who defended Tobruk (known as the "Rats of Tobruk") were most certainly feared by the Germans & Italians who tried for months to dislodge them from their completely surrounded and cut off position behind enemy lines. Their aggressive nightly scouting patrols spread fear and dread amongst their adverseries and kept the numerically much larger beseiging force continually off balance. Yes, they did receive some supplies from destroyers doing nightly runs into the harbour but the troops were always short of ammunition and food yet held back the might of the Afrika Corps who had previously swept all before them at that stage of the war.

To say that they weren't there long enough to be feared by anyone simply stupefies me and is an insult to all those of the Australian 9th Division that fought there.

END OF RANT

Jim R.

[Rupert_2]

If I was going to choose the best soldiers of WW2 they would have to be Wingate's Chindits or all of the units that served in the 14th Army in Burma.

The German Fallschirmjaeger.

The British Paras.

The British SAS,SBS,Z Force,LRDG,US Airbourne forces and the Afrika Korps ......

[Gyrene]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Yes I CAN imagine almost anyone else wading 700 yds to get to the beaches - what was the alternative? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They could've dumped their gear and gone to the mouth of the attoll and to safety. Many boats were sent out to rescue and stragglers on the reef, mosted asked for new rifles to replace their lost ones and went back into the fight.

Gyrene

[goodwood]

Just to add a little more the militia (AMF)was supplement by conscription, only to fight in australian territories, a legacy of the political backlash of WW1 when the then PM Billy Hughes try tried to conscript men into the army without success. The 2nd AIF was a fully volunteer army. Because the AMF couldn't fight overseas the AIF soldiers nicknamed them Chockos (chocolate soldiers)

[Mace]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:

And the Aussies weren't in the Dessert long enough to be feared by anyone - they left to surrender at Singapore. Their poorly trained militia put up a hell of a fight in New Guinea, but were helped by terrain and poor Jap supply and tactics just as the Empire troops had those things agaisnt them in Malaya.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some points:

i) I suggest you do some reading on both Tobruk and El Alemain, and the contribution Australia made there. The Germans in particular feared the night patrols that the Aussies carried out during the Tobruk siege.

I'd also draw your attention to the comment Rommel made about Australian troops (I'll leave it for you to search - but it efectively said that he would give anything to have a division of Australians)

ii) Australian troops didn't surrender at Singapore, the English in command made that decision.

iii) Regarding The Kokoda trail, Isn't the use of terrain the point of tactics? Obviously the Australians made better use of the terrain, and given that these were Australian militia and not regulars against a harden Japanese cadre, Hmmm?

iv) I suggest next time you do some research before posting. And while at it continue by reading of our exploits in WW1, Korea, The Malyasia incursion by Indonesia, Vietnam, the Gulf War (our mine clearing team), and various UN missions

Mace

[goodwood]

Go Mace how ya going? Didn't think it would take u long to fire up.

Ron

[Dr. Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Abbott:

Let us not forget the German troops. One of the finest fighting forces to have ever been fielded in any war.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh boy .... the myth lives on ... and besides. They beat up on minor powers. When push came to shove, they got their butt kicked.

[Brian Smith]

After reading Abbott's post I say kudos to troops of all nationalities. Anyone who has to stand up under fire is a brave man (plenty of soldiers in my family, including serving folk now).

Some more about Aussies from my information:

My old man, who was in the 6th Div AIF and served in the desert and New Guinea (rest his soul) told me that when they were shipped to New Guinea, they passed through what they termed 'chockos' (chocolate soldiers or CMF - Citizen's Military Forces, the equivalent of Army Reserve these days) on the way up from Port Moresby and that they had been pretty badly beaten up and some had run.

The CMF were probably what you would term 'militia' and had no expectation they would be used overseas when they signed up. They got thrown into New Guinea as a poorly trained stop-gap while the regs were brought back from the desert at our PM's insistence.

My old man's mob stopped the Japs above Moresby (still not yet equipped in jungle gear apparently) and then pushed them right back over the Owen Stanley Ranges. My Dad's last campaign was Aitape-Wewak (across the top of New Guinea) towards the end of the war in 1945, where they had to winkle Japanese forces out of caves in nasty close-quarters fighting and where they existed on captured Japanese rations (balls of rice). He weighed 6 stone (84 pounds) at the end of the war.

He wouldn't talk too much about the war, but when he did loosen his tongue, what he told me sent shivers up my spine.

[Gersen]

Just after leaving school I (and all my mates) used to hang out with a 'Rat of Tobruk'. He was a retired motor mechanic that helped us fix all our bombs (old cars - for the international audience).

He was a tough old bastard who's fondest memory was the sh*t that all the diggers used to give to any English Officers that tried to tell them what to do! He made sergeant 3 times!

He steadfastly refused to go to New Guinea because he had a phobia about snakes. More than happy to go back to the desert though.

I'm sure he'd have something to say about 'not being in the desert long enough...'. Probably pull out the old 30/30 he had on top of the cupboard, ready for any intruders that came to knobble his greyhounds

Cheers,

John

[Heidar]

Well lads this is realy dangerus issu. I have always thought higly of the german infantry man who kept on fighting even though they must have known that the war was lost by the end of 1943.

The Aussies have a fine record and must be proud of there fighting forces.

[Brian Smith]

You're right Heidar about this being a dangerous issue - how long before it ends up locked?

[Mace]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by goodwood:

Go Mace how ya going? Didn't think it would take u long to fire up.

Ron<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

G'day Mate!

Mace

[illo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>stand up under fire is a brave man<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would much rather stay in cover then stand upwhen under fire

Would be kind of silly thing to stand up...wouldn't it..heh

Best soldiers?

Are those who had best training? Germans

Who beat up vastly numerically superior enemy again and again with poor equipment? Finns

Who won the war? Allies

Who sacrificed most? Soviets

whatever...

[Snake Eyes]

Airborne troops in general. Dropped behind and/or on enemy positions in daylight and/or night. Limited supplies for long durations of sustained combat, meager AT assets, few if any vehicles, continually called upon to perform 'impossible tasks' (the Waal River crossing and Bastogne come to mind), and a host of other duties. These tenacious warriors have always been accorded elite status and feared by their opponents.

I personally know a former WWII US paratrooper from the 82nd who is one of six from a company of about 200 original members that survived the war without being killed or seriously wounded. His 'war stories' are incredible!

[RMC]

Best is such a nebulous term. Some folks are equating best to most honorable, or most aggressive. No one will agree and this thread is doomed to die an inglorious death. The good doctor has already made preparations for war (if they were they best then why'd they lose? huh? C'mon, tell me). Hasn't this battle been fought enough?

[Gyrene]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Best is such a nebulous term. Some folks are equating best to most honorable, or most aggressive. No one will agree and this thread is doomed to die an inglorious death. The good doctor has already made preparations for war (if they were they best then why'd they lose? huh? C'mon, tell me). Hasn't this battle been fought enough? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

RMC, what a pessimistic outlook (Probably realistic, though), all I want is 4 choices, simple curiosity. I should have known there would be a lot of flag waving and "mine's bigger'n yours" going on.

Gyrene

[Mark IV]

You've got to respect Combat Engineers. While it takes guts to make an icy river crossing under fire, what's it take to stand in it and build a bridge?

And how 'bout the guys you never see in CM- signal troops? Stringing commo wire under fire, then running back out into barrages to fix the cut lines, carrying heavy gear and unable to shoot back? Signal is also held to blame by commanders of all ranks for failures of all kinds... communications issues are the first line of defense for any commander whose performance is questioned.

Radio made it even worse, since it is an invisible demon with a mind of its own, especially in WWII crystal sets. Nowadays they're missile magnets.

But I digress... "best" threads are totally subjective, but that's why it's called a discussion board. It's the nature of the responses that draws the padlock.*

There should probably be categories for best trained individuals, best discipline under fire, and best group of soldiers functioning as a unit. It would be hard to beat the Japanese for discipline under fire. Afrika Korps accomplished amazing things as a unit, without troops who were necessarily "special" when they got there. US Airborne showed what training can make of "ordinary" troops, just as the Marines have. Success against odds with citizen soldiers award has to go to Finns.

*France and England were minor powers?