Red light next to suppression bars

[Euri]

I noticed that right next to the V-shaped suppression bars on the left part of the Unit Panel there is a switched-off round shaped red light indicator which I have never seen illuminated save for once. Have you understood what is its function?

[Bud Backer]

I think that's the Brittle indicator you're referring to.

P.32 of the 3.01 Engine manual:

"A small dot to the right of the suppression indicator will light up if the unit is Brittle"

[Sublime]

it means its been broken before. as in the unit had broken. and now recovered but very brittle because they broke before

[womble]

it means its been broken before. as in the unit had broken. and now recovered but very brittle because they broke before

Doesn't it toggle on once a unit has been "worse than Rattled" (ie Shaken or Paniced)? Even if they didn't "rally" to "Broken"? Cos it takes so long to rally from "Broken" that having a light to say they were Broken once is pretty nugatory (in that, for the most part, once they're Broken, the battle will be done before they rally back to Rattled or better, so most of the time you can just look to see if they are currently broken. I'm pretty sure troops that have been Shaken are far more likely to get Shaken again at slight stimuli than those who've only been at worst Rattled before.

[Baneman]

Yes, using the word "broken" here means "they broke" ie. got the red border, could not be given orders - not necessarily the State "Broken".

 

Just not enough words for the same thing

[Vanir Ausf B]

I don't think that is true. Troops that reach Shaken or Panic do not get the red light treatment. They have to rally from Broken. I recall only seeing it happen once in a game.

[Bud Backer]

I don't think that is true. Troops that reach Shaken or Panic do not get the red light treatment. They have to rally from Broken. I recall only seeing it happen once in a game.

From what Steve told me recently, Vanir Ausf B is correct.

[Sublime]

yes its only broken

[A Canadian Cat]

I have never seen illuminated save for once.

 

Wow you must be doing something right.

[womble]

From what Steve told me recently, Vanir Ausf B is correct.

Well shoot. That means that troops that have been through "Panic" or "Shaken" aren't brittle. And that's contrary to what I thought I'd been told (here) by someone I thought should know.

 

What a particularly useless interface improvement. How often do troops recover from Broken before the end of the battle? Not very (BFC don't generally think that putting in features you'll only ever use in extra-long battles is a good idea); my only strong recollection is that some of the swamp-crawling, arty-dodging infantry (who didn't crawl fast enough, and failed to dodge enough arty at the first bridge, so got broken in the first 1/4 hour of the battle) in School of Hard Knocks might've rallied by the time the lead elements got to the far German positions. And if they did, is it likely many people will mistake the eviscerated remnants of a squad for a generally useful element? The vast majority of battles are done and decided within the hour, though.

[Baneman]

I don't think that is true. Troops that reach Shaken or Panic do not get the red light treatment. They have to rally from Broken. I recall only seeing it happen once in a game.

 

Huh.

 

Not nearly as useful as I thought it was then

Possibly I was carrying over my memories of CMx1 and assuming ( without checking  ) that it was the same in CMx2.

Since I generally regard broken troops as militarily useless ( for most things - they're ok for long range supporting fire ), I've never noticed my error. I usually just use them to "occupy" VL's I've advanced beyond.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Baneman

[Bud Backer]

Wow you must be doing something right.

 

I've never had it light up. That's not me doing something right, it means I never rally broken troops! Grrrrr

 

Damned slackers. C3K would tell me they are only good for one thing now - sending them ahead as scouts...

[womble]

On further thought, I think something must have changed with Brittle, at some point, because if only Broken (or once-Broken) troops are brittle, I wouldn't have been so pleased when I heard they were going to put an indicator for the status. Or the indicator is bugged.

[sburke]

It was introduced in CMRT - from the manuals

If the unit's morale state is enclosed by a red box then the unit is so demoralized that it will not
respond to your commands at all. The unit may even run away or surrender
to the enemy! If a unit's morale becomes seriously degraded, it may become
"brittle", incurring a significant morale penalty for the rest of the battle. If
a unit becomes brittle, the light next to the suppression meter will light up.


When units are pinned (i.e. they can shoot but do not respond to movement orders),
or panicked, routed or broken, that status is shown in the suppression indicator
display as well. A small dot to the right of the suppression indicator will light up
if the unit is Brittle.

Broken Troops who have suffered heavy casualties and have become shaken or panicked,
but have not recently been under fire, may partly recover to a “broken” state
where they return to player control, but are so “brittle” that any significant further
incoming fire or further casualties will cause them to become shaken or panic
again very quickly.

 

[Vanir Ausf B]

That is massively confusing. It makes it sound as if Broken is a moral state less severe than Shaken.

[sburke]

When you say it next to a fish bowl it sounds better.  Maybe.

[womble]

That is massively confusing. It makes it sound as if Broken is a moral state less severe than Shaken.

Well, it kinda is. You can at least give your troops orders when they're Broken, which you can't when they're Shaken. They might not obey them for very long if put under any pressure, but at least they're listening to you. From Shaken, troops "improve" to Broken, under certain conditions. I'd certainly rather my troops "rallied" from Shaken to Broken than not rallying from Shaken at all...

 

The confusion I have is that I thought that even if they rallied (from Shaken or Panic states) back to Rattled, they counted as Brittle. Having an indicator for Brittleness would be useful in that case. It is much less so if the only way to get Brittle is to enter the Broken morale state.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Well, it kinda is. You can at least give your troops orders when they're Broken, which you can't when they're Shaken. They might not obey them for very long if put under any pressure, but at least they're listening to you. From Shaken, troops "improve" to Broken, under certain conditions.

This is very different from how Broken was described as working by a member of BFC recently. I can't recall the last time I saw a unit with Broken status in a game in any case, and in that respect the truth of the matter is largely academic.

 

The confusion I have is that I thought that even if they rallied (from Shaken or Panic states) back to Rattled, they counted as Brittle. Having an indicator for Brittleness would be useful in that case. It is much less so if the only way to get Brittle is to enter the Broken morale state.

 

They are kind-of little "b" brittle in that Rattled is their new ceiling.*

 

* IIRC some people have claimed to have seen a Shaken or Panicked unit rally all the way back to OK, but I have not noticed it and it must be quite rare at the least.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Vanir Ausf B

[Baneman]

...

 

* IIRC some people have claimed to have seen a Shaken or Panicked unit rally all the way back to OK, but I have not noticed it and it must be quite rare at the least.

 

In my "White Manor" AAR back in 2013, I had an example of a scout team which Panicked from incoming area fire. ( sadly, I was chopping off the UI in the pics, so no proof )

 

I noted in the following turn that : "They are Regular with a -1 morale.

The good news is that the enemy decided to stop firing and sneak down the side of the bocage where they were seen and fired on by #2 scout team. This enabled #1 to recover ( all the way from Shaken to Rattled to Nervous to OK ! )"

 

Can't say I've seen it since, but the ideal circumstances for it to happen are indeed pretty rare.

That is, however, the condition under which I thought the red light ( if it had existed back then ) would have lit up.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Baneman

[A Canadian Cat]

Yeah, I recall a long battle once where I had a broken squad hanging back and later when I went looking for them I could not find that broken squad.  Since I never really wrote down which squad it was it was hard to tell what really happened although I am convinced that the rallied from broken.  I always meant to do an experiment that was properly documented but never have.

[Vinnart]

Its not that hard to understand. The morale can really be broken down into 3 progressions:

 

Ok: This is a unit that is NOT in a permanent state of "yellow", which is Rattled. This unit may have went into the yellow or red briefly, but eventually had a enough morale to snap out of it.

Rattled: This unit is in the permanent state of "yellow", but he is still a step above "broken", and a step down form "ok" in being brittle.

Broken: This is the only state that shows the red light along with a "yellow" border around the word. This is the lowest on the scale of brittle

 

The reason for the addition of the "red" light is to bring emphasis to the state which shows a "yellow" border around the word, and to better differentiate it from "panic". The red border is reserved for "panic" state, which is generally a temporary condition where the player has no control. In this way also a "broken" unit can become "panicked", and perhaps back to "broken" in a much longer time  where the player can control it again, albiet in its more permanent brittle state.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Vinnart

[Vanir Ausf B]

Its not that hard to understand.

 

So how exactly does a unit get to Broken status?

Edited August 16, 2015 by Vanir Ausf B

[sburke]

I could show you - I have done it recently in  a test and their indicator did come on.    I am not proud of that, my pixeltruppen are still pretty pissed.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Is it hard to describe?

[sburke]

actually no.  I was testing out a scenario that happened to have a conscript team that was taking casualties.  I kept pushing them till they broke, then put all the opposing units with short cover arcs and just waited for the team to recover.  As soon as they did the indicator popped up.

 

The hardest part was pushing them to break before they all died.

 

For what it is worth though, I haven't ever paid much attention to that indicator.  I keep a pretty good eye on my troops and it is somewhat redundant for me.  I also never play in RT mode though either.

Edited August 16, 2015 by sburke