Incredible Footage

[Vark]

Of course they could just let Israel clean up the mess, oops what do we have here!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22195508

Publically kick them around about settlements, disrespect their leader but hope they deal with Iran and Syria. You get your mess sorted out and they get the blame, win win.

[Vanir Ausf B]

No one is hoping Israel sorts out Syria or Iran. Israel is not going to invade Syria no matter how nice we are to them, and they are frankly not capable of dealing with the Iranian problem (absent use of nuclear weapons, of course).

[Vark]

Yes we are, and yes they do, don't be naïve. We are delaying any response knowing in the end, the country most threatened by Iranian nukes will take action. If the SAS planned a suicide mission to take out Super Etendards and Exocet ASM's what will the Israelis do when the future of their nation is threatened? Though a nuclear warhead detonated underground would do the job nicely. No Israeli PM will tolerate Iranian nukes, we know that, they know that, most sane Iranians know that.

We are dithering over Syria because we know that the country that will suffer the greatest from Jihadists gaining WMD's, will take action to stop that eventuality, Gerald Vincent Bull ring a bell? He was only the designer of an outlandish weapon, what do you think they will do to any Jihadist group who overrun Syrian WMD's ? Israel, whipping boy, and ME fixer all in one.

[Vanir Ausf B]

No we are not, and no they can't, don't be silly. Best estimates are that a US air campaign would set back Iran's program a few years. Israel with their much smaller capability would have no chance. Nukes detonated underground by Mossad suicide teams? Someone's been watching too many movies.

[Vark]

Read about operation Mikado, and how many times have we heard that Israel cannot do something, has no chance, only for it to do so. Sorry, lived their just under a year*, the Israelis will not tolerate an existential threat to their nation, they will not accept Iranian nukes which seem to be stubbornly resisting the jaw jaw, delay, hope strategy. Maybe more unicorn dust is needed!

So Israel will not tolerate Iranian nuclear weapons, and they are not going away, solution?

Who said anything about Mossad suicide teams? They have a perfectly good launch vehicle in the Jericho II B and the Iranians have conveniently built some into mountain sides (close to fault lines by the way). You could entomb them, block their air supply and kill everyone inside with Co2 poisoning. It's what the Russians did, albeit on a far smaller scale, with Afghan mountain complexes. Either that or they kill every scientist on the project they can track, again the Gerald Bull strategy.

* that was in the Eighties, talking to Israelis now they seem to have become more nationalistic and right-wing (due to immigration from Eastern Europe).

[Vanir Ausf B]

the Israelis will not tolerate an existential threat to their nation, they will not accept Iranian nukes which seem to be stubbornly resisting the jaw jaw, delay, hope strategy.

Actually, I'm pretty sure they will, if only because they won't have a choice. Ballistic missiles could put a serious hurt on those facilities if they are nuclear tipped, but they won't be. Blocking air vents? Um, whatever. The numbers I have seen are 5 years delay for a US strike, 1-2 years for an Israeli strike, tops. We don't even know if we know where all the facilities are.

Syria is much more doable militarily, but again you have to ask if the Israelis even know where all the chemical weapons are.

I'm not sure why all the angst about Israel taking heat over the settlements. Their expansion is a rather blatant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, to which the US and the UK are party. It also runs counter to the US stated policy of a 2 state solution.

But don't worry too much. The checks are still being written.

[Vark]

Ah, you mean shuffle off to the ghetto because we know what best for them? I'm guessing here, but I don't think you know many Israeli's do you? Try ordering them around and telling them they have no choice, ever hear of the scorpion and the frog?

As for the cheques being written comment, I think you reveal a bit too much about your personal attitude there. You might want to check up on all the help Israel provided to the US, during the Cold War, some of it described as ' priceless'. Still we pay them to buy our weapons so those Jews should just toe the line, embrace reality and forget that silly emotional 'never again thing eh?

Just curious, but can you find me an Israeli statesmen/women who has said publically that an nuclear Iran is an acceptable situation? Perhaps you will have better luck than me.

By the way if you build anything underground it needs good ventilation, especially if it is deep underground. those air shafts have to be of a considerable size. You cannot hide them, and they cannot be too far from the facility, so find them block them and drop large amounts of rubble onto the exits and entrances. As the Bam earthquake proved, the Iranian engineering and emergency infrastructure is pitiful and outdated. If you wanted to be nasty sow the rubble with sub-munitions to delay or prevent rescue. Lots of ways to skin a centrifuge, as they say!

[Vanir Ausf B]

Ah, you mean shuffle off to the ghetto because we know what best for them? I'm guessing here, but I don't think you know many Israeli's do you? Try ordering them around and telling them they have no choice, ever hear of the scorpion and the frog?

As for the cheques being written comment, I think you reveal a bit too much about your personal attitude there. You might want to check up on all the help Israel provided to the US, during the Cold War, some of it described as ' priceless'. Still we pay them to buy our weapons so those Jews should just toe the line, embrace reality and forget that silly emotional 'never again thing eh?

Pathetic. It took you 3 whole posts before you went ad hominem. When all you have left is straw man arguments and ad hominen attacks you have nothing left.

Just curious, but can you find me an Israeli statesmen/women who has said publically that an nuclear Iran is an acceptable situation? Perhaps you will have better luck than me.

Find me a US President that has said it is acceptable.

By the way if you build anything underground it needs good ventilation, especially if it is deep underground. those air shafts have to be of a considerable size. You cannot hide them, and they cannot be too far from the facility, so find them block them and drop large amounts of rubble onto the exits and entrances. As the Bam earthquake proved, the Iranian engineering and emergency infrastructure is pitiful and outdated. If you wanted to be nasty sow the rubble with sub-munitions to delay or prevent rescue. Lots of ways to skin a centrifuge, as they say!

Well aren't you the military expert. Your knowledge of military matters is about as comprehensive as your knowledge of my "personal attitude". I listen to people who know what they are talking about. That does not include you.

[agusto]

By the way if you build anything underground it needs good ventilation, especially if it is deep underground. those air shafts have to be of a considerable size. You cannot hide them, and they cannot be too far from the facility, so find them block them and drop large amounts of rubble onto the exits and entrances. As the Bam earthquake proved, the Iranian engineering and emergency infrastructure is pitiful and outdated. If you wanted to be nasty sow the rubble with sub-munitions to delay or prevent rescue. Lots of ways to skin a centrifuge, as they say!

If you bomb the ventilation shafts, the personell inside the underground facilities is going to die, nothing else. Just wait until the bombardement is over, build new shafts, continue as planned. That wouldnt be a decisive action, only a delaying one.

Though a nuclear warhead detonated underground would do the job nicely.

An Israeli nuclear first strike on Iran? Seriously? That would turn the Middle East into nice theme for future iterations of CMSF, i mean guess how its neighbors are going to react. Such a drastic action would probably also deprieve Isreal from the US/Western support and without that support, Israel wont survive the following war. Between 2001 and 2005, roughly 20% of Israels military budget came from US tax payers (Foreign-Military-Financing-Programm), the Israeli Airforce is 100% dependent on the US equipment wise.

I dont believe Israel on its own is going to be able to permanently prevent Iran from getting nuclear weapons without using them themselves. They maybe can delay it (as they did in the past), but without a successful ground invasion of wich Israel alone isnt capable, Iran is ultimately going to get its nuclear weapons.

@Vanir Auf. B:

Werent there US Presidents who said that a nuclear armed North Korea was unacceptable?

[Vanir Ausf B]

@Vanir Auf. B:

Werent there US Presidents who said that a nuclear armed North Korea was unacceptable?

Probably. That was my point

[Erwin]

And also N. Korea seems more of a problem than Iran which appears to be run a bit more rationally despite the Mullahs. The Iranian middle class are doing quite nicely and have everything to lose.

[Vark]

Ah, the ad hominem reference, the internet equivalent of hollering for air support when your perimeter has collapsed. Perhaps ad hominem fallacy might be more accurate, in this case. Oh, and here's its bed fellow, straw man argument, what straw man argument? Responses to previous points, are not straw man arguments.

Never claimed to be a military expert, so don't really know what you are getting at, ventilation shafts are a weakness in fortified structures, historical fact.

As for your personal attitude you have given me quite a lot of information, sorry if I used it.

Exhibit a) your honour "don't worry the checks are still being written" A phrase so loaded with traditional historical slurs I really find it hard to believe it was just a 'turn of phrase'.

As for experts, he might know a thing or two

http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Yaalon-Israel-may-have-to-defend-itself-from-Iran-alone-309988

Oh, and comparisons between Israel and NK are somewhat strained, the more the US put pressure on Israel the more the country will unite, the more united, the greater the pressure on its politicians to act.

[Alan8325]

I dont believe Israel on its own is going to be able to permanently prevent Iran from getting nuclear weapons without using them themselves. They maybe can delay it (as they did in the past), but without a successful ground invasion of wich Israel alone isnt capable, Iran is ultimately going to get its nuclear weapons.

I agree with this. Iran is probably going to get a nuclear weapon, but that doesn't mean that it will be used. It will certainly not be used and for the same reason that North Korea won't use theirs, it would be the end of their regime. The US wouldn't retaliate to a nuclear strike with nuclear weapons in either Iran or North Korea however, because it would like to see pro-US regimes eventually appear, and every city being leveled and radioactive would make that much harder. The likely response to any Iranian or NK nuclear attack would be massive strikes with conventional weapons followed by a ground campaign, probably more refined in some way than that used in Iraq and Afghanistan. Nevertheless, they would still dislodge the regime. Isreal is another story regarding nuclear retaliation, however I think there would be strong pressure from the U.S. to avoid the use of nuclear weapons. Whether the U.S. can apply enough pressure to avoid nuclear retaliation against a nuclear strike on Isreali soil may be unlikely though.

The most likely results from Iran getting a nuclear weapon, which I think will happen, are that Iran will be slightly more bold with its proxy warfare activities utilizing Hizbollah and other groups in Lebanon and Syria, and Saudi Arabia will pursue its own nuclear weapons program to counter Iran's. Therefore the biggest risk to Isreal with Iran having a nuclear weapon is not that Iran will use the nuclear weapon on Isreal, but that there will be increased violence on Isreal's borders with Lebanon and Syria.

[Nidan1]

Recently the successor of the video that started this thread was uploaded to youtube; Men vs Tanks 2:

• Compilation of ANNA clips filmed with SAA T-72/BMP onboard cameras.
  
• Contains footage we havent had yet in this thread IIRC.
  
• 59 Minutes.
  
• 1080 HD.
  
• English subs.
  

Dont know how this thread deteriorated as it did. When did Isreal or Iran become part of the incredible video discussion?

In any event, when looking at this video of Men vs Tanks II, I for one am struck by the sheer amount of destruction that can be seen. After nearly two years of war this city of nearly 100,000 souls has been transformed into a virtual moonscape with rubble piled on top.

It is so sad to see this happen.

[Erwin]

Yes, the Syrian towns featured look like bombed out German cities after WW2. The only good aspect is that they'll probably be rebuilt with modern structures that are quite nice. Now's the time to buy Syrian real estate!

[Vark]

And what would that do for this man legacy?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/us-will-not-stand-back-and-allow-iran-to-build-nuclear-weapon-says-barack-obama-8535714.html

As we have seen yesterday he does not like anyone saying no to him! More importantly, US assurances of security would be weakened, and that would lead to greater global instability.

One nuclear strike on a major population centre, would threaten the viability of Israel, period. Hit Tel Aviv and 16% of the total population would be killed or injured, and given 40% of the Israelis live in the centre of the country one can see the magnitude of destruction. Or a 50 KT warhead (the top end of their computer simulations, according to the IAEA) would completely destroy the major port of Haifa, kill 15% of the population, devastate most of her heavy industry and reduce by half any importation capability. Land one on Haifa, Ashdod and Eilat and you have wiped out her international seaports, and ability to import critical supplies. EMP effects of a high altitude detonation would rapidly bring chaos to a nation with an ever-increasing high-tech infrastructure and be devastating in combination with ground and air-burst detonations.

Israel does not see herself as Outremer, destined to survive for a limited period before falling to her enemies, her security, hostage to the mercurial political realities of Western politics. It's why she is investing so much in oil and gas exploration, and gas fields like the Leviathan help her gain that independence and prepare for the day the cheques stop coming! She is not going to risk that independent future to US guarantees that promise retaliation, in the supposedly rare event of Iran nuking her!

[Erwin]

I loved the quote: “I’d love to sit at a cafe and just hang out. The last time I was there as a senator, I still had the option of wandering through the Old City of Jerusalem. That option becomes much trickier once you’re actually president. You can’t just slip out and interact with people without having a bunch of guys with machine guns with you.”

Is it accurate when he said "machine guns"?

[Vanir Ausf B]

Ah, the ad hominem reference, the internet equivalent of hollering for air support when your perimeter has collapsed. Perhaps ad hominem fallacy might be more accurate, in this case.

Pointing out what you are obviously doing is "hollering for air"? LOL. You really are something.

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person", short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argument made personally against an opponent instead of against their argument.

As for your personal attitude you have given me quite a lot of information, sorry if I used it.

Well don't stop now. By all means, write up a biography on me based on the information your imagination has given you.

Exhibit a) your honour "don't worry the checks are still being written" A phrase so loaded with traditional historical slurs I really find it hard to believe it was just a 'turn of phrase'.

It's a simple statement of fact, you moron (see, I can do it too).

As for experts, he might know a thing or two

http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Yaalon-Israel-may-have-to-defend-itself-from-Iran-alone-309988

I never said Israel would not try something. I said the best they could hope to achieve was a short delay in Iran getting the bomb. That is not solving the problem, and that article doesn't even begin to refute what I said.

[Redwolf]

Recently the successor of the video that started this thread was uploaded to youtube; Men vs Tanks 2:

• Compilation of ANNA clips filmed with SAA T-72/BMP onboard cameras.
  
• Contains footage we havent had yet in this thread IIRC.
  
• 59 Minutes.
  
• 1080 HD.
  
• English subs.
  

Excuse me, how so?

The video that started the thread was taken by rebels, not this russian TV stuff.

[Vark]

The Secret Service agents can probably lay their hands on the the para version of the 249 in their vehicles, but I thought they used MP's, M4's and P90's when doing close protection. Then again Obama's knowledge of guns is a little weak, still good quote, which illustrates the paradox at the heart of government. You can never get back to real life when President, but sometimes you need that emersion in normality to be the most effective.

[Alan8325]

I loved the quote: “I’d love to sit at a cafe and just hang out. The last time I was there as a senator, I still had the option of wandering through the Old City of Jerusalem. That option becomes much trickier once you’re actually president. You can’t just slip out and interact with people without having a bunch of guys with machine guns with you.”

Is it accurate when he said "machine guns"?

Interesting that he 'needs' machine guns (probably referring to m4s and p90s) while he believes that any civilian in the U.S. doesn't need and shouldn't have anything more than a handgun. That, however is a debate for a different forum.

The xm25 "Punisher" is now in active use by U.S. forces in Afghanistan and will be a welcome addition to CMSF2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM25_CDTE

[agusto]

Excuse me, how so?

The video that started the thread was taken by rebels, not this russian TV stuff.

The video that started this thread (Men vs Tanks 1) is a compilation of video clips made by youtube user "naTanks comesSpace", the same guy who created the "Men vs Tanks 2 "video.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I watched the entire video. The most interesting parts have already been shone in other videos, although the audio seems better in this one.

[Vark]

I never said Israel would not try something. I said the best they could hope to achieve was a short delay in Iran getting the bomb. That is not solving the problem, and that article doesn't even begin to refute what I said.

You did say that, but I can understand why you are a bit confused here, because in each exchange your argument has, how shall I say, ‘evolved’. I think that’s the most charitable description I can use.

they are frankly not capable of dealing with the Iranian problem

Best estimates are that a US air campaign would set back Iran's program a few years. Israel with their much smaller capability would have no chance.

The numbers I have seen are 5 years delay for a US strike, 1-2 years for an Israeli strike, tops.

You also seem to struggle with the definition of the term, refute. Quoting from the article

“When asked if the IDF has the capabilities to attack Iran alone, Gantz answered “unequivocally, yes. The Iranian challenge is a meaningful one. We must look at it strategically long-term.

1-2 years is not long-term, so yes it does refute your argument somewhat.

But don't worry too much. The checks are still being written.

Genuinely curious, what did you mean by this? Why should I be worried?

[Vanir Ausf B]

Your contention that I responded to was that Israel was "whipping boy, and ME fixer all in one." Setting back Iran's program for a year or 2 does not fix anything, therefore the 3 statements I made that you quoted are not contradictory or meaningfully different from each other, but are just using different words to say the same thing.

And I haven't even touched on the other half of your original statement that the US hoped Israel would deal with Syria and Iran. With regards to Iran specifically that is a provably false statement and is actually the opposite of what the US wants.

Genuinely curious, what did you mean by this? Why should I be worried?

I said don't worry, not do worry. The reason is that actions speak louder than words. Telling Israel to stop expanding settlements in violation of international treaty and long-standing US policy is words. Grants and loans are actions. Vetoing UN resolutions against Israel are actions.