Incredible Footage

[baron Jacquinot]

Yeah, but if the government lets its forces get away with such stuff, how can they claim the moral highground and call the rebels terrorists? They are terrorists themselves! It is right to rebel against a government that legitimates such atrocities.

Agusto there no any rebels, maybe 10%, but 90% it is just Islamite mercenaries, same people which kill Russian soldiers in Chechnya, they all terrorists! If you think they are rebels and victims of bloody Asad Regime, welcome to Russia, come and speak with Russian veterans of Chechen war! This kind of people cutoff heads of Russian soldiers and western journalist!

Heads of British engineers in Chechnya, this do by hands of peaceful rebels and freedom fighters.

[agusto]

Because they quite literally are?

On one hand, you have government forces killing prisoners of war, on the other, you have the FSA beheading suspected collaborators, beating vendors for selling "western propaganda" and outright looting even otherwise neutral civilian communities.

One crime doesnt make the another one legal.

Is it also legitimate to kill or deport ethnic and religious minorities?

Or is it just an inconvenient side-track that we should ignore until they establish (Sunni-majority) democracy?

So your arguement is that if the majority in a country is of one specific ethnic alignment a dictatorship is a better/more representative form of government than a democracy? Also the Sunni Al-Nursa Front does not equal the FSA.

[baron Jacquinot]

One crime doesnt make the another one legal.

So your arguement is that if the majority in a country is of one specific ethnic alignment a dictatorship is a better/more representative form of government than a democracy? Also the Sunni Al-Nursa Front does not equal the FSA.

Democracy in Islamic countries? It is possible? Some time ago Soviet Union have idiotic idea based on Marx ideology - make socialist state in Afghanistan. So what we have? Feudalism, terrorism, Islamism.

[agusto]

Agusto there no any rebels, maybe 10%, but 90% it is just Islamite mercenaries...

Those are numbers wich i highly doubt. If of the 150.000 - 200.000 opposing forces 90% were merceneries, this would mean

1) someone has to pay 135.000 - 180.000 merceneries. Who should that be?

2) that the question arises from where they are coming from. You cant just spawn 150.000 armed personel out of nowhere.

Besisdes that you even contradict youself in your own sentence: even if of the opposition forces only 10% were rebels, it would be incorrect to say that there were no rebels at all.

[baron Jacquinot]

Those are numbers wich i highly doubt. If of the 150.000 - 200.000 opposing forces 90% were merceneries, this would mean

1) someone has to pay 135.000 - 180.000 merceneries. Who should that be?

2) that the question arises from where they are coming from. You cant just spawn 150.000 armed personel out of nowhere.

Besisdes that you even contradict youself in your own sentence: even if of the opposition forces only 10% were rebels, it would be incorrect to say that there were no rebels at all.

Who pay? Saud Arabia, Quatar, USA, international funds, etc. All who want to start WW3.

Of course some of that cannon fodder is real rebels, but like in your signature - "Kill them all. For the Lord knoweth them that are His."

[Schmoly War]

In this new video (6/3 - 2013) we apparently see a T72 hit by a RPG29.

Not much left.

It seems we have seen the same open area where the tanks are situated in other videos. They keep coming back to pound the same area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn1NWU3nGQc

Watch later you will see where the missile was shot from.

[baron Jacquinot]

In this new video (6/3 - 2013) we apparently see a T72 hit by a RPG29.

Not much left.

It seems we have seen the same open area where the tanks are situated in other videos. They keep coming back to pound the same area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn1NWU3nGQc

Watch later you will see where the missile was shot from.

RIP for brave tank crew, they are heroes, they die for their homeland.

Augusto tell my, from what source this peaceful rebels have rpg29? Rpg29 impossible to buy on offical world weapon market!

F...ck Soviet leaders which give weapon to all this idiots.

[agusto]

Probably from a syrian army depot. It would also be possible that deserting syrian soldiers brought it with them. Other possibly sources would be Lybia or Saudi Arabia. There is a difference though between equipping rebels and funding a ~150.000 mercenary force, the latter is noteably more expansive. Using weapons that were imported also doesnt make the rebels mercenaries.

[baron Jacquinot]

And again no infantry around, they want shot all terrorist from tanks? I can't understand.

[baron Jacquinot]

Probably from a syrian army depot. It would also be possible that deserting syrian soldiers brought it with them. Other possibly sources would be Lybia or Saudi Arabia. There is a difference though between equipping rebels and funding a ~150.000 mercenary force, the latter is noteably more expansive. Using weapons that were imported also doesnt make the rebels mercenaries.

I think yes, Russia sell rpg29 to Syria.

[Schmoly War]

And again no infantry around, they want shot all terrorist from tanks? I can't understand.

Possibly a combination of bronegruppa tactics and lack of sufficient/exhausted infantry. Or there is actually infantry around but we just dont see them.

[baron Jacquinot]

Possibly a combination of bronegruppa tactics and lack of sufficient/exhausted infantry. Or there is actually infantry around but we just dont see them.

That's bad tactics, like in 1st sturm of Grozny when armor came into the center of city and stay, all vehicles was burned.

The correspondent say that tanks cover infantry from sniper fire, I think it was a bad idea, better 1 or 2 killed infantry man than 1 burned tank.

[akd]

RIP for brave tank crew, they are heroes, they die for their homeland.

Augusto tell my, from what source this peaceful rebels have rpg29? Rpg29 impossible to buy on offical world weapon market!

F...ck Soviet leaders which give weapon to all this idiots.

RPG-29 was sold to Syria by Russia, not Soviet Union.

[Buzz]

So how is CMSF2 going to model Drones?

Do we know that it will? Drones are not really a high intensity war platform. For any first-world military with a modern air force and air defense system they would be fairly easy to shoot down. But if they were included I would think that it would function similar to any other airstrike except probably more precise.

We don't know if CMSF2 going to model Drones. I hope it does model Drones for completeness. I was wondering about the information gathering modeling as well as the more precise airstrike possibilities.

[Schmoly War]

That's bad tactics, like in 1st sturm of Grozny when armor came into the center of city and stay, all vehicles was burned.

The correspondent say that tanks cover infantry from sniper fire, I think it was a bad idea, better 1 or 2 killed infantry man than 1 burned tank.

Sure.

Reality dictates tactics, no? It could very well be that dismounts are in short supply and refuse to operate as they should due to snipers. How would you enforce discipline where the situation is as desperate as this?

Its not Grozny either. The tank crews probably know the city layout and seem to work trough the same areas day after day so they should have some reasonable intelligence regarding the fluid frontlines.

Im not leaving out the fact that like Grozny, it could be the hubris and arrogance of the top brass regarding their own understanding of the war, the men and their equipment.

But it could also be that they are in fact more successfull using tanks raids than they are with infantry raids.

Its a desperate situation and the commanders are probably instructed and encouraged to take aggressive manouvers to create pockets to trap insurgents, and they need to do this fast, requiring the mobility of AFVs.

Im not sure how much different I would have planned this, given the circumstances.

[Vanir Ausf B]

In this new video (6/3 - 2013) we apparently see a T72 hit by a RPG29.

Not much left.

It seems we have seen the same open area where the tanks are situated in other videos. They keep coming back to pound the same area.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn1NWU3nGQc

Watch later you will see where the missile was shot from.

Fired from inside a building...

[Schmoly War]

Fired from inside a building...

Open roof it seems.

[Apocal]

One crime doesnt make the another one legal.

I never said it did. It was you who claimed that one side's illegitimate actions automatically legitimized the other side.

So your arguement is that if the majority in a country is of one specific ethnic alignment a dictatorship is a better/more representative form of government than a democracy?

No, it is intentionally less representative, since in this case democracy means three wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. I don't understand why it is wrong to not support democratically agreed-upon genocide or ethnic cleansing in your eyes, but I guess we can agree to disagree in that regard.

Also the Sunni Al-Nursa Front does not equal the FSA.

The FSA itself (seperate from Al-Nursa) has previously targeted the (at the time neutral) Kurds, driving them into Assad's camp. They did this around six months before their December setback in Damascus, when it looked like Assad would be gone within the year. The FSA itself (separate from Al-Nursa) has stated that their desired endgame is a campaign of ethnic and sectarian cleansing. The FSA itself (separate from Al-Nursa) is posting YouTube videos of mass prisoner executions.

This is after Assad's regime folded on the original Constitutional issue, has granted more rights to non-Alawites in the country and generally taken steps towards a more just form of governance. But the FSA (separate from Al-Nursa) must have it's pound of flesh.

The reason why western media coverage of the conflict has tapered off is because you basically have two sides behaving extremely badly and the side they initially supported (FSA) professing some very un-western things.

[Sgt Joch]

The western media was trying to portray this as an uprising of the oppressed against an evil dictatorship. That is partly true, but this is turning into a regional power struggle.

The Assads and their Alawite clan are supported by Iran and Hizbollah and surprisingly by Iraq which is worried about its own Sunni minority.

The rebels who are predominantly Sunni are backed, armed and funded by Saudi Arabia, Qatar and enjoy the support of Turkey and Jordan.

Iran wants to keep its Syrian ally and Saudi Arabia wants to instal a Sunni regime to serve as a counterpoint for now Shiite Iraq. Either way the end result will most likely be a dictatorship, either Alawite or Sunni. More worrying is the fact that the war is now slipping into Lebanon and Iraq.

Basically it is a replay of the Iraq civil war, Sunnis vs Shiites, except that the U.S. is not stuck in the middle this time. Its no wonder Obama wants to stay as far away as he can from this mess. Its a lose-lose proposition.

[agusto]

One crime doesnt make the another one legal.

I never said it did.

You kinda implied it. When i said that the governments actions are crimes, you answeared something like "but the rebels are doing it too!" wich pretty much sounded like a justification to me.

It was you who claimed that one side's illegitimate actions automatically legitimized the other side.

No, this is not what i said. I actually expected that you would turn that arguement around. What i wanted to express is that no matter what the rebels or terrorists or whatever you want to call them do, a government that has its forces commit such crimes is in general not one that is suited to stay in power. The fact that possible replacements arent very convinient either is a different story.

My initially posted opinion

Yeah, but if the government lets its forces get away with such stuff, how can they claim the moral highground and call the rebels terrorists? They are terrorists themselves! It is right to rebel against a government that legitimates such atrocities.

still remains unchanged, though.

No, it is intentionally less representative, since in this case democracy means three wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. I don't understand why it is wrong to not support democratically agreed-upon genocide or ethnic cleansing in your eyes, but I guess we can agree to disagree in that regard.

The FSA is not a very homogenous group and at least as far as i know most of its leadership has condemed such actions commited by some of its independent brigades. Also, doesnt the current situation fit your description very well too? Its only that the Alawites are choosing who is for dinner.

The FSA itself (seperate from Al-Nursa) has previously targeted the (at the time neutral) Kurds, driving them into Assad's camp. They did this around six months before their December setback in Damascus, when it looked like Assad would be gone within the year. The FSA itself (separate from Al-Nursa) has stated that their desired endgame is a campaign of ethnic and sectarian cleansing. The FSA itself (separate from Al-Nursa) is posting YouTube videos of mass prisoner executions.

This is after Assad's regime folded on the original Constitutional issue, has granted more rights to non-Alawites in the country and generally taken steps towards a more just form of governance. But the FSA (separate from Al-Nursa) must have it's pound of flesh.

The reason why western media coverage of the conflict has tapered off is because you basically have two sides behaving extremely badly and the side they initially supported (FSA) professing some very un-western things.

So the conclusion is that one has to choose wether to support a piece of sh*t or a pile of t*rd - not a very convenient situation.

Probably my last few posts were in some parts not differentiating enough, they were pretty much motivated by the video i had seen.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Open roof it seems.

A very common condition for buildings in warzones.

Not that it really matters. We also have video of similar weapons being fired from buildings with roof intact.

[Apocal]

No, this is not what i said. I actually expected that you would turn that arguement around. What i wanted to express is that no matter what the rebels or terrorists or whatever you want to call them do, a government that has its forces commit such crimes is in general not one that is suited to stay in power. The fact that possible replacements arent very convinient either is a different story.

Not a different story at all. It is not legitimate to kill protestors as a government, it also does not become legitimate to kill soldier's families as part of your rebellion against the oppressive government. You can back one, you can back the other or you can back neither.

Not that any of this particularly matters, war isn't a contest of legitimacy and I fully expect whoever wins to settle scores in the most vicious manner possible in the post-war.

The FSA is not a very homogenous group and at least as far as i know most of its leadership has condemed such actions commited by some of its independent brigades. Also, doesnt the current situation fit your description very well too? Its only that the Alawites are choosing who is for dinner.

No, the FSA has not condemned it and is still actively fighting against the Kurds. Yes, the Alawites are going to punish the Sunnis harshly if they win. Assad being relatively nice (compared to his father) is what allowed the insurgency to grow in the first place, so I doubt he'll make that mistake ever again.

As for the FSA, if it cannot control it's members during the war, how does it expect to control them in the aftermath? This is a serious issue in many successful insurgencies, bringing all the various groups to heel can be as nasty as overthrowing the existing government, if a bit shorter. Against any case the FSA could make for post-war solidarity, their most effective and respected fighters (Al-Nusra) are the ones most divorced from the FSA's core message and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3zgxWgb6k0.

At least they (Al-Nusra) aren't threatening to put all the minorities to the sword though, which is an improvement on the FSA's stance.

So the conclusion is that one has to choose wether to support a piece of sh*t or a pile of t*rd - not a very convenient situation.

Or you could support neither. This is apparently confusing for the west, but we do have the option of saying, "thanks, but no thanks."

Probably my last few posts were in some parts not differentiating enough, they were pretty much motivated by the video i had seen.

I don't post videos of what the FSA does, because they are incredibly poor taste for this forum.

[baron Jacquinot]

The western media was trying to portray this as an uprising of the oppressed against an evil dictatorship. That is partly true, but this is turning into a regional power struggle.

The Assads and their Alawite clan are supported by Iran and Hizbollah and surprisingly by Iraq which is worried about its own Sunni minority.

The rebels who are predominantly Sunni are backed, armed and funded by Saudi Arabia, Qatar and enjoy the support of Turkey and Jordan.

Iran wants to keep its Syrian ally and Saudi Arabia wants to instal a Sunni regime to serve as a counterpoint for now Shiite Iraq. Either way the end result will most likely be a dictatorship, either Alawite or Sunni. More worrying is the fact that the war is now slipping into Lebanon and Iraq.

Basically it is a replay of the Iraq civil war, Sunnis vs Shiites, except that the U.S. is not stuck in the middle this time. Its no wonder Obama wants to stay as far away as he can from this mess. Its a lose-lose proposition.

I pray that this chaos don't come to North Caucasus and Middle Asia.

[baron Jacquinot]

Sure.

Reality dictates tactics, no? It could very well be that dismounts are in short supply and refuse to operate as they should due to snipers. How would you enforce discipline where the situation is as desperate as this?

Its not Grozny either. The tank crews probably know the city layout and seem to work trough the same areas day after day so they should have some reasonable intelligence regarding the fluid frontlines.

Im not leaving out the fact that like Grozny, it could be the hubris and arrogance of the top brass regarding their own understanding of the war, the men and their equipment.

But it could also be that they are in fact more successfull using tanks raids than they are with infantry raids.

Its a desperate situation and the commanders are probably instructed and encouraged to take aggressive manouvers to create pockets to trap insurgents, and they need to do this fast, requiring the mobility of AFVs.

Im not sure how much different I would have planned this, given the circumstances.

Last Grozny assault -

The Russian army in the last assault had used a trick, Russian headquarters inculcate misinformation about massive assault, and terrorists have put forward a major force in the line of fire, after that Russian army opened heavy artillery fire and terrorist lost 50% of they strength. I want to know how Assad's army use artillery.

[Sgt Joch]

Or you could support neither. This is apparently confusing for the west, but we do have the option of saying, "thanks, but no thanks."

Exactly. Why does every world problem become the responsibility of the US?

"western intervention" actually means US intervention since UK and France do not have the resources to do it on their own.

Let the Arab states handle this one, its their problem.