BadgerDog Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Question ... How does a tank sitting on a paved road not bogged, having only moved forward once on that paved road since setup, not damaged (all green lights) and not under fire get suddenly immobilized? :confused: It just turned into that condition with no reason I can see. If it's some attempt by programmers to simulate a breakdown, then it should show up in status lights. If it is that condition, then just like buddy aid for downed troops, then the game should provide "fitters" who travel with the "A" Echelon in all countries' tank formations, to be able to be sent to the broken down vehicle and work on repairing it. I appreciate the developer's attempt at realism, but it's tough enough in some of these scenarios when you've got limited resources to start with, to lose something you need one move after a setup, when the programming for that kind of simulation is only half complete. Just my opinion ... Regards, Doug 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 How long would it take to a/ call up the fitters and have them on scene b/ repair the tank? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadgerDog Posted November 5, 2011 Author Share Posted November 5, 2011 How long would it take to a/ call up the fitters and have them on scene b/ repair the tank? They traveled in deuces at the rear of the combat squadrons and the MTR on our Sherman M4's was about an hour for typical breakdowns. Its an easy vehicle to service and to be honest, well built mechanically and broke down very little with anything serious. However, our Centurions were awful and when they broke down, which they did very often, you were usually done and field expedient repairs weren't able to fix them most of the time, meaning a tow back to the rear area for major repairs. I hated the Centurion, loved the Sherman and Leopards that we finally got. Regards Doug 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 I was curious because this discussion has come up before (both in the beta forums and on the main forums). I think having fitters come on scene in a combat situation for an hour long repair/fix could be exciting for all concerned! From reading first hand accounts (just been reading Daglish's book on Goodwood) that crews were out of the tank as soon as it was hit cos the next one would surely brew/KO the tank. The recovery of damaged vehciles seemed to be more common when the fighting had moved on. It also throws up the issue of animations for this act being undertaken. FWIW I would like to see tanks being able to be hastily towed out of the line, rearm ect especially in scenarios that last several hours. This is on 'The List' but I suspect there may be other more pressing issues that knock this particular element down the list. Still good to discuss it I think 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadgerDog Posted November 5, 2011 Author Share Posted November 5, 2011 FWIW I would like to see tanks being able to be hastily towed out of the line, rearm ect especially in scenarios that last several hours. This is on 'The List' but I suspect there may be other more pressing issues that knock this particular element down the list. Still good to discuss it I think I agree ... If you were going to permit bogging, you should be able to "tow" the bogged tank out with another tank (or deuce), which we did regularly on M4's. Our M4's had a winch and chain on the front glaces plate, which we could run out to a nearby tree, or other fixed obstacle and actually pull (winch) ourselves out without any outside help. Did that two or three times as well ... Anyway, I realize that it is just a game, but my original point is that the status lights perhaps should have changed to something else if it is a breakdown, rather then just stay all green. Regards, Doug 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 There appears to be way too much bogging/immobilization of tracked vehicles, (specifically tanks even when on roads) in the game vs wheeled vehicles. One of the reasons tracked vehicles were created was to traverse terrain that would bog/immobilize wheeled vehicles. However, one can run wheeled vehicles around open ground in wet conditions at QUICK and probably FAST all through a scenario and I have never seen one bog yet. It's crazy when, in a campaign, one can gradually lose all ones tanks to bogging. I very rarely have lost em to enemy fire. It's getting to the point where I'm scared to even move em at all. I know CMBN is designed to be infantry-centric, but... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 I haven't had any tanks bog to Immobilized yet. I've had one bog, temporarily, in a ford, which seems entirely the sort of risk that might be run, and had several wheeled vehicles bog in fields. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 For those thinking there's too much bogging, keep in mind a LOT of Normandy scenarios take place in 'wet' conditions. If its not raining outright the ground is damp. Normandy in June was not exactly ideal fighting weather. Weren't a couple very expensive Mullberry harbours washed away during storms in June? As bad as driving cross-country is, if its wet and raining I especially try to avoid the roads themselves. CM:BN seems to have carried over an 'eastern front' notion of what happens to the road system during rainstorms. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 I understand that, MikeyD. However, for a game, especially when playing a campaign, it's very irritating/frustrating to lose a couple of tanks every scenario to immobilization rather than combat. In the otherwise xnt Hoffnung campaign I am enjoying, by scenario 4 I have lost 3 out of 5 PzIV's and 2 out of 5 Panthers to simple bogging/immobilization (none to combat) even when keeping them on the road (which I thought in the paved roads of Normandy should be better than cross country). It gets to the point that I am scared to even move tanks at all. At this rate there is a good chance that by scenario 6 I won't have have any armor left - all lost to bogging/immob. I think that is way too high a figure even per historical data. And it's way too much for a game - not fun at all. (I suppose the problem could have been mitigated by reinforcements - but that is a design issue.) Someone posted that it's better to move tanks QUICK as their "distance traveled to bogging ratio" is better that way. But, that just doesn't make sense - esp for game that tries to sim realistic behaviors - and I do enjoy that aspect of CM2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadgerDog Posted November 6, 2011 Author Share Posted November 6, 2011 For those thinking there's too much bogging, keep in mind a LOT of Normandy scenarios take place in 'wet' conditions. In over four years of driving M4 Shermans in all kinds of weather and terrain, from snow to mud up to my knees, I only ever had one vehicle bog down ... For tracked vehicles, bogging is way over modeled here .... I don't mind that, but as I've said before, if they're going to add that function to attempt realism, then they need to add "tow" it out capability. Even the one I bogged was towed out in less than an hour and back on the go again ... Regards, Doug 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 In over four years of driving M4 Shermans in all kinds of weather and terrain, from snow to mud up to my knees, I only ever had one vehicle bog down ... For tracked vehicles, bogging is way over modeled here .... But then, I think the Shermans that you drove were over-serviced compared to the wartime ones. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Schultz Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I believe that I recall pushing disabled vehicles out of the way in CMBO. Or at least being able to nudge them. "Push" and "Tow" ... just what the GUI needs... more buttons. ---- 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Makes me wonder how the T-34 will be modeled. It apparently was one of the most (if not the most) bog-resistant tanks of the war. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Makes me wonder how the T-34 will be modeled. It apparently was one of the most (if not the most) bog-resistant tanks of the war. Oh yeah? Then explain this: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadgerDog Posted November 7, 2011 Author Share Posted November 7, 2011 But then, I think the Shermans that you drove were over-serviced compared to the wartime ones. Well, service doesn't affect bogging, unless an improperly tensioned track caused it, but I hear you ... I still think it's a random number generator programming issue, but then again, it is only a game where I also see an abnormal amount of crank and shoot (often moving) "first round" hits with amazing speed using WWII optics. Regards, Doug 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 LukeFF, What is amazing is if you go to the Russian web site with the interview of the Russian tanker, he states the Sherman was better then the T34 at not bogging. [shrugs] Guess we may never know. Rune 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Aren't bogging probabilities mostly dependent on pounds per square inch exerted by the tracks. So, the wider tracks found on most Russian tanks helped them go fast over squishy terrain. Of course a lighter tank with thinner treads may have also been ok. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Aren't bogging probabilities mostly dependent on pounds per square inch exerted by the tracks. So, the wider tracks found on most Russian tanks helped them go fast over squishy terrain. Of course a lighter tank with thinner treads may have also been ok. Ground pressure is one very important factor, but it's not the only one. There are suspension, weight distribution and drivetrain factors that matter a lot, too. Overall, I'd say that looking at the ground pressure number is a good place to start, but you can definitely fall into a trap looking at this number alone. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 "Mean maximum pressure" rings a bell. That was a detailed thread over in cmx1 years ago. Located here: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=38553 Some bogging could reflect driver mistakes, fuel, map reading, arguments over fast food stops, who farted, radio stations, etc. It could reflect any non-mechanical reason for not moving. (Having said that, I'm still angry about my psw234/1 (8-wheeler) bogging on dry open ground where it was useless. Grrrr.) (Edited for various reasons. ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Well, my 4th Hoffnung campaign scenario is notable for the fact that I decided to try moving my trucks and Puma recon vehicles a bit faster using HUNT and QUICK, and one Puma and two trucks have already been immobilized. These are the first wheeled vehicles I have immobilized so far in this campaign (which I highly recommend btw). Then I find that one cannot board an immobilized truck to acquire ammo. IIRC vehicles often have limiters installed to prevent high speeds as that increases the risk of mechanical failure and bogging. However, CMBN exhibits the opposite effect since so many of my tanks having immobilized when moving SLOW on roads or X-country. Grrr... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javaslinger Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 This would be the kind of thread I feel the developers could take a sec to drop a quick comment on.. Is it WAD? Is is being looked into? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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