Taking care of wounded - how important

[DavidFields]

I thought you would like this site

http://www.mtaofnj.org/content/WWII%20Combat%20Medic%20-%20Dave%20Steinert/index.htm#World%20War%20II%20and%20the%20Combat%20Medic

Superb.

I will look at it more. But I note that the Forward Aid station sends people forward to pick up the wounded, generally, and it is not the front-line soldiers that take the wounded back.

[Sgt Schultz]

A Red Cross Jeep/Kubel with two Medics in the purchase screen as specialist teams would be fun.

These medics could perform point-saving casualty exits for every trip to a friendly map edge with casualties on board.

--

Back on track ... I agree that certain aid should be performed prone.

I believe the manual states that aid will not be rendered or will be interrupted if a healthy enemy unit is spotted within 100 meters.

To keep from getting killed while performing aid, make sure you have good situational awareness.

[Erwin]

For what it's worth I use a Truck mod (I think from Aris) that includes a red cross version graphic. It's fun.

[Kat Johnston]

I always have my guys provide buddy aid unless the area is under a prohibitive amount of fire.

[Cpl Steiner]

I remember ages ago when CM:SF came out I asked if the points awarded to the enemy were different for WIA vs. KIA and was told they weren't. The only real benefit of buddy aid is scavenging weapons and ammo. I suggested to Steve that your KIA should award proportionally more points to the enemy than your WIA and he seemed to like the idea but I don't think it was ever implemented.

Doctrinally, I think buddy aid would have been much less important in WWII compared to today. CM:SF really had to have buddy aid, as modern armies place a very high priority on keeping the KIA figure down. Every day there are probably dozens of serious casualties in Afghanistan but only the KIA make the headlines. The media is the main incentive for reducing KIA these days. If you want to be cynical about it, WIA cost society a lot of time and money in operations and rehabilitation whereas (quoting from the movie "Braveheart") the dead cost nothing. If it wasn't for the media, I suspect the military would be much less concerned about taking care of the wounded.

Even in relatively modern battles, I've read that the wounded were not treated until the battle was essentially over. In some of the hill battles around Port Stanley during the Falklands War I believe the wounded were left for hours unattended, in freezing conditions. Paradoxically, this might have actually kept them alive, in the same way that kids falling into freezing water are sometimes pulled out alive several minutes later with no brain damage.

If you want to portray buddy aid as it might have been in WWII, then I would suggest only letting your men treat wounded guys with support weapons like MGs and Bazookas. Anyone caught treating a normal GI should be moved away so they can get back in the fight.

[dickesKind]

My bad, I was under the impression that only KIA and MIA counted towards points totals.

With no incentive to provide buddy aid(besides weapon scavenging), what's the point of all that coding?

Maybe this just simulates the behavior of a squad on the battlefield. A small and familiar group of persons ( a Band of Brothers ) would not left someone of their own bleeding and screaming. In this case BA adds something realistic and I think I like it.

But I also think it should be rewarded a little bit more by the game, if I leave a squad for a turn to care about the wounded; reward me for not beeing a emotionless commander.

[drrowley]

"The only real benefit of buddy aid is scavenging weapons and ammo.", but only if they are dead (page 66 of manual). why does it matter if they are dead or not? only thing worth while of buddy aid, other than slight point gain, is the ammo.

[GreenAsJade]

If there's a slight point gain, then it's worth it. I'm still confused whether there is or not, and under what circumstances....

[Sgt Schultz]

To recap what I have gathered from the discussion so far... and please correct me if I am wrong.

1. WIA, MIA, KIA all count towards any and all casualty POINT totals.

2. "Brown-Base" KIA buddy aid is for ammo and weapons collection only.

3. "Red-Base" WIA buddy aid collects weapons and ammo... and removes a soldier from the 25% calculations for KIA from all WIA.

This means that buddy aid affects only the AAR WIA/KIA casualty numbers(and only through the 25% KIA calc) ... not points. The player gets to feel better and has bragging rights. He also leaves a cleaner battlefield.

So... in my opinion, and taking all these statements as correct... we are forcing ruthlessness on H2H players that may want to be more merciful/immersive.

Unless you need the weapon a downed truppen was carrying, there is no other in-game incentive to conduct buddy aid. On the contrary, if your battefield intel is not all that it should be, it places the aid-givers themselves in considerable danger due to non-prone aid.

------------

My question to BFC is ...

Can "red-base" troops that receive buddy aid(disappear) be coded to NOT count towards casualty points? This means destroy as well as the parameter casualty points. They still count on the AAR screen at the bottom where it is just bragging rights territory.

In other words, stand what we have on its head.

We currently either gain nothing from, or are punished for, behaving in a humane manner on the battlefield. Every truppen that cannnot answer roll call at battle's end is considered lost forever in a points context. Arguably realistic, but many wounds could be dressed and soldiers returned to duty from a forward aid station. Buddy aid abstracts getting wounded to an aid station.

Let's reward taking the risk, even though it may only be a few points here and there.

Otherwise ... the gamey folk who slap on kilts and paint their faces blue will over-run us while we care for our kamareden, and their wounded lie writhing in the dirt.

-----

[Ithikial_AU]

Used buddy aid all the time in CMSF especially playing as Blue Force as I thought it was important for scenario scoring and for carrying troops over to other battles. A little bit wrong I know. But it would seem a little more accurate in a modern battle setting and the priorities of the soliders on the ground compared to the 1940's.

In CMBN I rarely have time to worry about buddy aid.

[GreenAsJade]

Sgt Schulz: your points 1 and 3 together seem to mean that buddy aid to redbase casualties _is_ rewarded in point score? I'm still confused

[Sgt Schultz]

GaJ... ALL casualties count towards casualty POINTs, whether they get buddy aid or not. A WIA is an MIA is a KIA as far as the referee scoring the exercise.

Buddy aid only affects the 25% chance that a 'red base' will go from WIA to KIA. That means NOTHING to the points totals. It is just a bragging rights number at the the lower part of the AAR.

Everything I state here is working within the statements made here in this thread, and the manual.

I would like a little BFC input in here to completely clarify, in case I have it wrong.

[Sublime]

Personally I could care less about the points. When I play I like to try to play realistically. I dont try to advance on map edges just because they're map edges. I dont use AFV crews as scouts or cannon fodder. etc.

It also applies to my men. Admittedly its easier to start caring for PTruppen in a campaign, but even in one off battles I make an effort to give aid to the wounded.

What i would like to see is this work both ways. Maybe not buddy aid for enemy troops, but scavenging of weapons, just for that battle. For example troops picking up german Pzfausts. This would be a great help in many situations, and doesnt seem that far fetched...

[slysniper]

What i would like to see is this work both ways. Maybe not buddy aid for enemy troops, but scavenging of weapons, just for that battle. For example troops picking up german Pzfausts. This would be a great help in many situations, and doesnt seem that far fetched...

Boy, now your talking, That would sure aid in taking out tigers and panthers and such.

It also makes me wonder how much of that went on, I have read plenty about Enemy MG's and such. In Russia, it was very common, no matter what the equipment was. But I really do not recall ever ready anything about Americans using captured Pzfausts

[Michael Emrys]

But I really do not recall ever ready anything about Americans using captured Pzfausts

Pick up a copy of James Gavin's On to Berlin. In it, he describes how the 82nd. Airborne armed itself with captured Fausts and used them to good effect.

Michael

[Sgt Schultz]

I believe that American Paratroopers were trained in the use of, and encouraged to scavenge, enemy weapons.

They traveled light, and the thinking was that proper training in enemy weapons would keep a unit effective once it ran out of ammo for its own weapons.

----

[GreenAsJade]

GaJ... ALL casualties count towards casualty POINTs, whether they get buddy aid or not. A WIA is an MIA is a KIA as far as the referee scoring the exercise.

Buddy aid only affects the 25% chance that a 'red base' will go from WIA to KIA. That means NOTHING to the points totals. It is just a bragging rights number at the the lower part of the AAR.

Everything I state here is working within the statements made here in this thread, and the manual.

I would like a little BFC input in here to completely clarify, in case I have it wrong.

Now I get it, sorry I was being dense before.

Thanks!

GaJ

[LJFHutch]

To me it seems like KIA should give a lot more points than WIA: you have to feed them and probably give them aid as well, making them somewhat of a burden.

[drrowley]

@sgt #3- on page 66 and 93, they only way you get ammo/weapons is if they are dead. i tried having a single soldier with 61 ammo and 2 grenades, treat 3 different wounded buddies. After treating, he still had only 61 ammo and 2 grenades.