Hitpointsystem on Subsystems

[LukeFF]

For understandable commercial reasons most thought that CMSF was biased towards the US

Which is a load of bunk.

[siffo998]

I did something: 5 lanes with 5 Tiger I (mid) Rgeular/Normal/+2 against 5 M4A3(75)W Sherman Veteran/Normal/+2 with the following result after 2 minutes of firing:

Lower Front Hull: 4 hits (2xNone, 1xRa+Op, 1xOp) 1xCautious

Superstructure Front Hull: 20 hits (13xNone, 2xRa+Op, 1xTr, 2xOp, 2xRa) 4xCautious

Weapon Mount: 4 hits (2xNone, 1xRa+Op, 1xOp) 1xCautious

Weapon: 2 hits (2xTr) 1xCautious

Front Turret: 5 hits (2xNone, 1xRa+Op, 2xOp), 1xCautious

Left Front Turret: 1 hit (1xOp)

Armor Skirt: 1 hit (1xNone)

to read:

#of hits

(2xNone, 1xRa+Op) = 2 hits with no effect, 1 hit with damage to Radio + Optics

1xCautious = 1 hit decreased mood to Cautious

still a low number for a test sample. Interesting IMHO the track damage with Weapon hits. Optics seem to be distributed all over the vehicle. Mood seems ok to me. No Tiger went beserk - all remained in position to take more hits.

after 3 minutes: 4/5 100% optics damage 1/5 100% radio damage. 1/5 OK 4/5 Cautious. Still standing.

after 4 minutes: 5/5 100% optics damage 4/5 100% radio damage. 2/5 OK 3/5 Cautious. Still standing.

after 5 minutes: 5/5 100% optics damage 5/5 100% radio damage. 2/5 OK 3/5 Cautious. Still standing.

after 6 minutes: 5/5 100% optics damage 5/5 100% radio damage. 2/5 OK 3/5 Cautious. Still standing.

No more damage accumulated ...

one comment: put cover arcs on the Tigers and they never started to shoot despite being shot at like crazy ...

this is really really great work winkelried. i think your test clearly shows what i`ve already stated: that optics damage gets "triggered" from hits all over the tank. (side and front) a really strange new exploration is that a weapon hit leads to tracks damage. the same goes for the superstructure hit with track damage. i hope bfc will comment on this and give a explanation.

but it also shows that those retreating tigers after one hit seem not to be a reproduceable thing. after all not a single one in your test showed this behavior !

maybe i`ve missed it but what was the range for this test winkelried ?

after all thanks winkelried !!!

[bodkin]

this is really really great work winkelried. i think your test clearly shows what i`ve already stated: that optics damage gets "triggered" from hits all over the tank. (side and front) a really strange new exploration is that a weapon hit leads to tracks damage.

I'm not seeing conclusive proof in this test of side hits causing optics damage or am I missing something? I'm presuming all the Tigers were facing front on to the Shermans. I can sort of live with that as 'optics' might include vision devices in the hull and turret. Maybe a side on test would clarify?

Don't know why tracks would be damaged from main gun being hit, unless it's a downward ricochet.

[siffo998]

winkelried made a difference between front turret hit and left front turret hit so i guessed "left front turret hit" means left side turret hit. but that is maybe a misinterpretion by me so i will post my own test of a tiger in melatime position with some side hits later.

but isnt it strange enough that lower front hull and superstructure front hull hits cause optics damage ? (non penetrating)

[siffo998]

ok i`ve done a test myself. one tiger mid 1000m distance in mealtime position with cover arc so that he wont shoot back against m4a3 sherman 75mm. both with regular eyxperience and no bonuses and maluses. i tested for 3 minutes. 3 times.

the end optics damage result for the tigers after 3 minutes were:

1X brown circle

1X yellow circle

1X red X

here are the hits with the damage:

Lower Front Hull:

1X no damage

1X Radio + Optics

Upper left Hull:

1 X Optics + Radio

2 X Radio

4 X no damage

Superstructure Front Hull:

3 X no damage

1 X Optics + Radio + Tracks

1 X Optics

Upper front Hull:

1 X Radio

1 X Optics

Armor Skirts:

1 X no damage

2 X Radio + Tracks + Optics

Left Front Turret

1 X Radio

2 X no damage

Wheels:

1 X Tracks (full damage after one shot)

1 X Optics

1 X no damage

Lower left Hull:

2 X no damage

1 X Optics

Upper Right Hull:

1 X no damage

Left Turret:

1 X no damage

i have to add that in two tests the tiger surpression meter went from zero to full after one hit and after a second he backed up and i wasnt able to stop him even after ordering him in the next turn to drive back to position he backed up after reaching this position (even though he received no hit when he reached the position (maybe regular crews with no bonus are much more frightened by non penetrating hits). In the third test the first hit was against the wheels and so the tiger was unable to backup. (immobilization)

i think my test clearly shows that optics damage is also received by side hits. and furthermore by armorskirt hits (???) and wheel hits (???). a explanation by bfc would be fine !

PS: i have to admit that theirs a difference between the left front turret area and the left turret area.

[winkelried]

this is really really great work winkelried. i think your test clearly shows what i`ve already stated: that optics damage gets "triggered" from hits all over the tank. (side and front) a really strange new exploration is that a weapon hit leads to tracks damage. the same goes for the superstructure hit with track damage. i hope bfc will comment on this and give a explanation.

Superstructure hit and track damage is understandable if the superstructure is the nearly vertical front plate which expands over the tracks. So a hit there could damage the tracks - so I would consider this to be an acceptable modeling since it happens not so often.

but it also shows that those retreating tigers after one hit seem not to be a reproduceable thing. after all not a single one in your test showed this behavior !

maybe i`ve missed it but what was the range for this test winkelried ?

after all thanks winkelried !!!

1000 Meters Hit Rate (educated guess) 70-80%

[winkelried]

i have to add that in two tests the tiger surpression meter went from zero to full after one hit and after a second he backed up and i wasnt able to stop him even after ordering him in the next turn to drive back to position he backed up after reaching this position (even though he received no hit when he reached the position (maybe regular crews with no bonus are much more frightened by non penetrating hits).

Maybe the +2 in leadership makes a difference. I'll run the test on a neutral level.

My tigers are in frontal engagement. I'll try mealtime too.

[winkelried]

Maybe the +2 in leadership makes a difference. I'll run the test on a neutral level.

Nope. My tigers stand. Can you put your scenario as an attachment?

EDIT: I put each tiger in a seperate unit with an FO w/o vehicle against spreading of "bad" mood.

[siffo998]

http://www.2shared.com/file/x4-glVRY/test_tiger.html

heres the download link !

and the superstructure front hull is the drivers front plate. (nearly vertical and 100mm) the front plate which expands over the tracks (nearly horizontal, 60mm armor) is the upper front hull. i can say that for 100% because iam the one who figured out that the upper front hull was moddeled to thin and bfc fixed it in the first patch !

[winkelried]

http://www.2shared.com/file/x4-glVRY/test_tiger.html

heres the download link !

Thx.

and the superstructure front hull is the drivers front plate. (nearly vertical and 100mm) the front plate which expands over the tracks (nearly horizontal, 60mm armor) is the upper front hull. i can say that for 100% because iam the one who figured out that the upper front hull was moddeled to thin and bfc fixed it in the first patch !

then the track damage seems to be reasonable with 1 in 20 hits (with a small sample).

[bodkin]

There's plenty of evidence of panzers retreating despite having the superior tank. IIRC it was usually because the german tank crew didn't know exactly what was shooting at them and weren't confident enough to sit around and a find out what it was. There's evidence of panther and tiger crews retreating after bazooka and 57mm/6 pdr AT gun hits that were ineffective as far as the observers could tell but the tank crews weren't keen to hang around and see exactly what was firing at them, so I think BFC got it right when they back up even if they haven't suffered too much damage.

[siffo998]

There's plenty of evidence of panzers retreating despite having the superior tank. IIRC it was usually because the german tank crew didn't know exactly what was shooting at them and weren't confident enough to sit around and a find out what it was. There's evidence of panther and tiger crews retreating after bazooka and 57mm/6 pdr AT gun hits that were ineffective as far as the observers could tell but the tank crews weren't keen to hang around and see exactly what was firing at them, so I think BFC got it right when they back up even if they haven't suffered too much damage.

actually i have no problem with that... its just a side product of the test... my main sorrow is that optics and also track damage happens even though parts are hit that do not relate to that. like i said in my opinion optics damage (at least when optics refers to the aiming sights of the gunner) should only happen when the weapon mount is hit in the right spot !

[siffo998]

then the track damage seems to be reasonable with 1 in 20 hits (with a small sample).

maybe we are talking about different things but i cannot see how a hit against the superstructure can cause track damage at all. there is absolutely no connection between the superstructure front hull and the tracks. and i cannot see how a riocheting ap hit could get from this part to the tracks !

the superstructure front hull is that part where the mg and the drivers vision slit are located just for clarification.

[winkelried]

maybe we are talking about different things but i cannot see how a hit against the superstructure can cause track damage at all. there is absolutely no connection between the superstructure front hull and the tracks. and i cannot see how a riocheting ap hit could get from this part to the tracks !

the superstructure front hull is that part where the mg and the drivers vision slit are located just for clarification.

i agree on the location - have a look at this picture

We talk about the red part (and maybe the green one too) - so you have an overhanging part on the left and the right side above the tracks. a hit above the area of the star could yield track damage. Without measuring I say that 15 - 20% of the surface overhang so the result of my test with 1/20 (5%) hits with track damage sounds plausible. or?

[siffo998]

thx for the picture winkelried that makes it much much easier to communicate.

ok like i`ve already said i`ve puzzled out that the upper frontal hull was too thin. and i can say for 100% that the upper frontal hull is the green part and i think that the small parts to the left and right also belong to this upper frontal hull.

the blue part is the lower frontal hull and the red part is the superstructure hull. the connection you are talking about belongs to the upper frontal hull i think. (green part + those overlapping parts left and right).

and even if the shell hits the area above the star (right or left side of the superstructure) i still cannot see how this would affect the tracks. if the shell riochets down then theres still the overhanging part of the upper frontal hull which protect the tracks from damage ! and i do not think that a riochet of the superstructure which hits the overhanging part will bent the part that much that the tracks would be affected.

but even if you are right there are still other strange hit locations were subsystem damage (optics and also tracks) was triggered that should and cannot be. armor skirt, tracks, side hull, frontal lower and upper hull hits affects the optics... strange ! and a weapon hit caused tracks damage...even more strange than this superstructure hit ! like i said in my opinion only gun mantlet or maybe frontal turret hits should have a CHANCE to kill the optics.

[siffo998]

ok i `ve don a comparison test with a panther A mid against m4a3 75mm. test conditions are the same as on one page before. just wanted to show that strange subsystem damage is the same for a panther and i think also all other tanks (allies included).

just for comparison i`ve first measured how long it take until the panthers optics were gone when he directly faced the sherman at 1000m. It has taken 10 hits until red X. Similar to the tiger (10-16 hits) but i`ve only done the panther test once.

then i`Ve placed the panther in a 45° position so that his flank can be hit and left him there for 3 minutes (in total 3 test runs like with the tiger). here are the results:

Upper Frontal Hull:

10 X no damage

1 X Radio + Optics

2 X Radio

3 X Optics

Left Turret:

1 X no damage

Armor Skirt:

1 X Track damage

2 X Track damage, Radio + Optics

Front Turret:

2 X no damage

1 X Optics

Weapon Mount (Mantlet):

2 X Radio

Wheels

1 X no damage

Upper Left Hull

2 X no damage

this time it was the same as with the tiger in the test. the panther also backed up after 2 hits and i have to force him back. In the third run the panther was also immobilized with the first hit against the skirts. So in total i wasnt able to test how side hull hits would react because the panther backed up so often.

for all the one who are new to this thread. we are talking about non penetrating/ riocheting hits only !

[winkelried]

and even if the shell hits the area above the star (right or left side of the superstructure) i still cannot see how this would affect the tracks. if the shell riochets down then theres still the overhanging part of the upper frontal hull which protect the tracks from damage ! and i do not think that a riochet of the superstructure which hits the overhanging part will bent the part that much that the tracks would be affected.

I am not sure how strong the overhanging part over the tracks is but I think we both can live with this ambiguity.

but even if you are right there are still other strange hit locations were subsystem damage (optics and also tracks) was triggered that should and cannot be. armor skirt, tracks, side hull, frontal lower and upper hull hits affects the optics... strange ! and a weapon hit caused tracks damage...even more strange than this superstructure hit ! like i said in my opinion only gun mantlet or maybe frontal turret hits should have a CHANCE to kill the optics.

Here I fully agree. BFC should enlighten us on how they get to the damage on the optics.

[winkelried]

I still try to get my tigers moving. they stay put. can you send me the editable scenario file?

[Haggard Sketchy]

again i do not say that optics damage should be taken out ! i simply think it would be much more realistic if optics damage only happens when the actual part of the tank is exactly hit by a ap shell or he shrapnell

Problem is that everything I've seen in CMx2 aims only at center mass. This makes sense when dispersion is high and hit probability is low, but at close range it can cause problems.

For example, technical gunners in Shock Force and Afghanistan are harder to hit up close than they should be. I've seen MGs fire several bursts harmlessly at the same spot on a truck frame, only to leave the unharmed guy standing on it to return fire and wipe out the MG team.

Hit points for now is a substitution for deliberate aiming at components. Otherwise antitank rifles in the upcoming Ostfront game will be as ineffective as they were in CMx1. Which is kind of a shame, because CMx2 already has a much better detailed damage model. It just needs the aiming thing.

[Erwin]

Taki1980 from BoB wanted someone from BoB to post something on this thread, so anything to make him happy...

[GreenAsJade]

Hey, I already posted in this thread, way back

I wonder if you can get someone from BFC to post and comment on whether this optic thing is noteworthy or not?

GaJ

[siffo998]

I still try to get my tigers moving. they stay put. can you send me the editable scenario file?

heres the editable file, sorry i have already overwritten the tiger test but this is the panther test and he showed the same back up behaviour !

http://www.2shared.com/file/sh9h29BD/test.html

I am already wondering why bfc hasnt posted till now...after all we have over 1000 views and around 70 posts and we have even brought up some sources and tests. would be really interesting to hear the designers perspective and to finally get an answer to what this optics damage really refers. Periscope ? Vision Blocks ? Aiming Sights ? All things together ?

[winkelried]

heres the editable file, sorry i have already overwritten the tiger test but this is the panther test and he showed the same back up behaviour !

http://www.2shared.com/file/sh9h29BD/test.html

thx. the panther moved pretty quickly. replaced by a tiger the tiger wouldn't move in 10 tests. although two tigers started to move in my original test (5+1 lanes). my observation: you need lots of room behind the tank and there has to be a quick sequence of significant hits which depress the mood of the crew. so the behaviour seems pretty much ok to me: there is room to make the distance bigger and thus reducing the efficiency of the enemy fire, and there is quick increase in subjective threat-"feeling" without the possibility to respond.

[Taki]

You wont get an Official Answer. And if you get one they will say one of two things:

1. We take a look at it (and nothing happens)

or

2. Everything is allright

[sburke]

You wont get an Official Answer. And if you get one they will say one of two things:

1. We take a look at it (and nothing happens)

or

2. Everything is allright

Instant gratification just a bit too slow eh?