H2H campaign project - MORTAIN

[JSB]

Hi,

Encouraged by LongLeftFlank Carillon Nose inspiring example, I'm trying to bring an old project of mine to life: creating a H2H campaign focused on the Mortain battle.

While playing CMSF, I was already searching for Normandy Battle historical material to create scenarios and discovered the Old Hickory website, which is simply incredible.

I was immediatly gripped by the Mortain battle, and since then I've gathered some material about the subject.

Useless to say that it's not for tomorrow, it's a long-term project (the german troops are to come with the first module), as the map is already a hell of uneven terrain to edit.

I'm hoping to manage making it a H2H campaign, as the units facing each other are basically the same during the whole battle.

If the incoming modules come along with editor enhancements such as copy/paste feature for the map, or at least the possibility of reseting the anchorage of a saved map part, it will make it easier, as I'm planning to edit a general map and to cut it in order to create the battles (but the battlefield is slightly larger than 4x4km).

To bypass the fact that there is no terrain damage memory in CMBN, I just have to stick to the historical facts, and destroy progressively all the buildings as constant shelling from both sides destroyed the major part of the town within a few days.

I'll report here the progress, and ask for some advice when needed.

[Rokko]

If you like to share some information or even work (although I'm not that interested in H2H), I myself am working on something similar. I have a single player campaign in mind featuring the actions of 2nd Panzer Division.

I have already finished 2 maps, one of St. Barthélemy just north of Mortain and one of Bois du Parc, where a small road block of A Company/ 117th IR was.

Unfortunately, historical sources on the German side in this battle (or actually, in general) are pretty few, especially on non-SS troops.

But I recently bought "Victory at Mortain" by Mark J. Reardon and hope to find somethin in there.

[JSB]

I'm currently reading "Victory at Mortain", and some notes refer to german accounts but some of these books are written in german (like "Unser Regiment" by Gert-Axel Weidemann, certainly hard to find).

Guderian's book about the 116th panzer would certainly help.

My own project is focused mainly on the 120th IR: Mortain itself, Hill 314, Hill 285, Romagny, L'Abbaye-Blanche, so they are complementary!

I had the opportunity to participate in multiplayer campaigns on the french-speaking website Appui-Feu, and really enjoyed it, as I enjoyed the H2H operations of CMBB, that's why I want to create a H2H campaign.

[A Canadian Cat]

<snip>creating a H2H campaign<snip>

A H2H campaign would be brilliant. I would really like to play such a thing. It might be difficult since I believe that right now you cannot play a campaign via PBEM and that is certainly how I would have to play it. So, I will need to wish that PBEM be extended to include campaigns in the next while as well.

[BletchleyGeek]

If you have someone who play you can trust, one thing that can work would be that:

1) The campaign author releases the campaign unbaked, accompanied by a small guide telling the players which battle outcomes influence which others

2) The players carry over losses, manually from scenario to scenario. It's a pain, but being just one the battle involved each time, it might be doable.

[JSB]

Isn't it impossible to play a campaign via pbem only because there is no H2H campaign so far?

[Fredrock1957]

Isn't it impossible to play a campaign via pbem only because there is no H2H campaign so far?

Well please tell me how to do it, cause I am in the middle of SIE KOMMEN II testing and I can only get H2H hotseat to work...

[JSB]

Well please tell me how to do it, cause I am in the middle of SIE KOMMEN II testing and I can only get H2H hotseat to work...

Bad news then...

A campaign can offer some interesting non-stereotyped and unbalanced battles and add a kind of strategic level to the game; too bad it seems limited to single player for practical purposes.

[JSB]

A little view from the in-progress map (1,6kmx2,4km for the moment).

L'Abbaye-Blanche in the center, Hill 314 in the background, and a few Mortain buildings around the Collegiale (church) on the right.

Sorry for the poor visual quality.

[Broadsword56]

Looking great!!

For gripping reading and scenario/map source material, I highly recommend:

Saving the Breakout: The 30th Division's Heroic Stand at Mortain, August 7-12, 1944 [Hardcover]

By Alwyn Feathersto

[LongLeftFlank]

Wow, nice looking map!

One reco, FWIW: make sure units have little to no LOS deep into, much less right through, those two patches of woodland flanking the Abbey. Those are going to be critical tactical terrain in the game. Right now, I am sad to say the plain CMBN forest tiles + trees aren't accurately representing the dense thickets (young trees and bushes) at the woods edges that in summer heavily obstruct LOS into and out of the interior. They are more representative of "interior" forests where sunlight is sporadic.

The method I recommend is to use the hedge tiles that have gaps in them at various angles to represent the thickets, together with the small "orchard trees" and long grass. More info available in this thread. Good luck!

EDIT: Some others have suggested tinkering with the elevations or using bocage instead of hedge but I don't personally endorse those solutions as thickets generally offer very little cover (but great concealment). You make the call.

EDIT: Oh wait -- are those orchards? Never mind the thicket in that case, but they should definitely have bocage around them.

[JSB]

Thanks!

@Broadsword56: I just ordered the book you are refering to.

@LongLeftFlank: These are not orchards but woods; that's the way my computer is able to display them

For the moment, I'm editing the map in a generic way, I will enter into details (and therefore gameplay details) later, and of course I will pay attention to the LOS aspect.

I'll read carefully the thread you mention.

[GerryCMBB]

Just a thought on this idea. This is what one does in ASL campaigns. You buy forces for every scenario of the campaign but you also have to manually track who survives a CG date so you can carry them forward. Admittedly a bit easier there as you had squads and half-squads, not individual soldiers. Even those some unit states required more dinking.

You are trusting each other so if that worked in one game system I think it could work here. And it looks like that AAR mod would make the accounting easier?

Gerry

If you have someone who play you can trust, one thing that can work would be that:

1) The campaign author releases the campaign unbaked, accompanied by a small guide telling the players which battle outcomes influence which others

2) The players carry over losses, manually from scenario to scenario. It's a pain, but being just one the battle involved each time, it might be doable.

[Old_Hickory]

JSH:

Thanks for your efforts, the map is looking great! Great to see someone picking up on this important battle.

Rokko:

Your project sounds great too!

Any chance either of you will consider posting any of your work as Quick Battle maps?

The 30th is my adopted Division and has an impressive combat resume. I have copies of many of the available AAR, combat interviews, etc. including Mortain. Some I purchased others the creator of the old hickory website you mention sent me.

There are some great combat accounts related to

these maps.

Thanks again...contributions like yours make CBMN more than a game to some of us!

[JSB]

Thanks for your encouragement.

I also plan to release the map, but without AI plans, so that it will be possible to virtually visit this battlefield, and it will be available for anyone willing to do something with it.

The main part of the work is still ahead as I'm trying to make the map as accurate as possible (with the help of 30s and 40s aerial photographs, 20s postcards, along with visits to the site).

If it proves too difficult to create a H2H campaign, I'll have to look into how AI plans work to propose a single player campaign.

I agree with the fact that this battle is very captivating, but many of these events don't really match with the balanced standard standalone CM battles, which is why I'm thinking of a campaign.

[Broadsword56]

Yes, a campaign is a good idea. And don't be concerned about "balance" in the standard sense. A battle with great disparities of forces can still be "balanced" as a game depending on how you set the victory conditions. Even in a battle certain to be lost, CMBN can give a chance of game victory to the outnumbered and outgunned with points for acheiving an exit objective, or managing to holding a certain position when it was lost historically, or inflicting a certain damage level on the enemy.

[JSB]

I received "Saving the Breakout" last week, and I devoured it.

It's exclusively focused on US veterans interviews and aar, but the author makes it absolutely stirring.

Thanks for the advice.

Map editing still in progress...

[Rastamon]

Map is looking great. Can't wait to get more Lüttich scenarios/campaigns.

[JSB]

Computer crash (MB and HDD)

I've lost a part of the work (that I'm trying to recover), but my reserve computer can't run CMBN.

Stanby, for the moment...

[Rastamon]

Now that 2.0 is out I'm lookin forward to seeing your map JSB. ;-)

[The Steppenwulf]

I second that. My interest in Normandy is specific to Cobra and the Mortain counter-offensive. Please give us an update!!

[Rake]

Looking great!!

For gripping reading and scenario/map source material, I highly recommend:

Saving the Breakout: The 30th Division's Heroic Stand at Mortain, August 7-12, 1944 [Hardcover]

By Alwyn Featherston

@Broadsword56: I just ordered the book you are referring to.

I'm about three-quarters of the way through Featherston's book and must say that it's been an excellent read. I've just received Victory at Mortain, by Mark Reardon, and have read that this account is among the most thoroughly researched books on Operation Lüttich; unfortunately, it sounds like it might be a bit of a slog.

I'm working on a 3x3 km map of the area roughly centered on St.-Barthelemy. So far, it's just the majority of the topo and roads... not too much to show right now. The south edge of this map will be just south (200 meters, or so) of La Tête à la Femme.

The toughest going so far has been trying to align the major roads. I've rotated the base map to align D5 (from La Tête à la Femme to St.-Barthelemy) in the north-south direction. This puts D977, from La Tournerie, at roughly S60°W which is well off of the cardinal-ordinal axes allowed by the action squares.

My head tells me that it's far more important to preserve the lengthy, straight lines-of-sight that some of the roads in this area provide rather than to attempt to follow the actual road location by placing multiple, short bends in the road. Still, attempting to straighten the road will mean placing bends in locations that aren't actually there. Otherwise, this road will wind up off the map in someplace it shouldn't. Fortunately, there appear to be places where the topography will let me "hide" these bends... I'm guessing that the topo will have to move somewhat with my final roadway configuration in order to approximate what may, or may not, be visible from certain areas.

Google Earth isn't real helpful in this area, except right along the major roads. And, a trip to France is out of the question right now as work picks up again on Wednesday :eek:

Any mapmakers with suggestions? Thank in advance... Mike