odd smoke shell

[drrowley]

tank's smoke shell burst about 25m in air and is bellowing from there. does bf want to see this file???

[womble]

tank's smoke shell burst about 25m in air and is bellowing from there. does bf want to see this file???

Just a quick check: do you have trees turned on? It's a common "D'oh" moment to remember that invisble trees might be getting in the way...

[drrowley]

huh, just thought of that this morning, was going to check tonight; but still, becomes one of those clear los to target area and then hits a tree?????

then one could start to argue, how did smoke canisters stay in the tree??????????

[YankeeDog]

then one could start to argue, how did smoke canisters stay in the tree??????????

Depends on the type of smoke round. WP smoke shells usually detonate with a small burster charge, which spreads chunks of white phosphorous everywhere. White phosphorous generates smoke on contact with the oxygen in the air, so it has the be dispersed somewhat to generate a large smoke cloud quickly. So if a WP shell detonated in tree foliage, you would expect a good number of the WP bits to get caught in the branches and leaves, and the smoke might well stay in the tree.

Base-ejecting smoke shells, such as HC smoke shells, would be a different matter.

[womble]

Depends on the type of smoke round. WP smoke shells usually detonate with a small burster charge, which spreads chunks of white phosphorous everywhere. White phosphorous generates smoke on contact with the oxygen in the air, so it has the be dispersed somewhat to generate a large smoke cloud quickly. So if a WP shell detonated in tree foliage, you would expect a good number of the WP bits to get caught in the branches and leaves, and the smoke might well stay in the tree.

Base-ejecting smoke shells, such as HC smoke shells, would be a different matter.

It's a bit confusing, because all smoke shells in the game are modelled as if they're base ejection types, even if the round is designated as WP.

[Pak40]

It hit a tree no doubt. I've seen this a number of times, usually with High explosive but a couple of times with smoke.

[drrowley]

with tree's on yes went into a tree, but, again, los show clear shot, all though the site line goes right thru the middle of the tree. if i move tartgeting slightly one direction or the other, los becomes blocked.

[slysniper]

when are people going to figure out that seeing through a tree does not mean you are gareenteed a shot making it through the tree, it might or might not. it is like golf, take your chances.

[Pak40]

LOS <> shot trajectory.

[ClarkWGriswold]

when are people going to figure out that seeing through a tree does not mean you are gareenteed a shot making it through the tree, it might or might not. it is like golf, take your chances.

I often find that things are exactly the opposite. I can't see anything through the trees, but the pixeltruppen seem to have x-ray vision that allows them to get a bead on AFVs through the most dense copse of trees.

Of course, only my enemy's men have this gift. My own men all require Coke bottle glasses which seem to have been lost before the battle.

[drrowley]

then there is the flip side. had panther on a hill, american td on another hill, with multiple tree lines in between (range was also 500m). i could not see the hill from the point i parked it, let alone the td, yet, to my surprize, on the next turn, they started shooting at each other. the did panther win. i looked at the two positions again. zooming in and out, and was never able to see ether vehicle thru two lines of trees and the line of trees the panther was behind.

[drrowley]

interestingly, i was logged off in the middle of reviewing the above.

i should point out, 'the panther did win' and the two lines of intervening trees are in the saddle between the hills and setting on top of the hills, one cannot see over them.

[YankeeDog]

interestingly, i was logged off in the middle of reviewing the above.

i should point out, 'the panther did win' and the two lines of intervening trees are in the saddle between the hills and setting on top of the hills, one cannot see over them.

If you read AARs of Tank vs. Tank engagements, you'll find all sorts of incidents in armored combat of firing at (and sometimes killing) enemy tanks hidden or partially hidden from view. An M10 crew spots what looks like tip of the gun barrel of a German tank just peeking out from behind a house and fires a round through the house, scoring a flank hit and KOing the enemy tank. A German ATG makes an educated guess as to the location of a Sherman based on a few flashes of movement and a bit of diesel smoke above the bocage, fires through the hedgeline and kills. In thick fog, a U.S. 57mm gun crew can only hear track sounds and see occasional muzzle flashes. They fire a round at one of the muzzle flashes, and score a lucky kill on a Tiger hit right through the bow MG. An M18 crew spots a suspicious tank turret-shaped shadow in a tree line, fires, and is rewarded by a large fireball as the Panzer brews up.

To my mind, LOS/LOF through variable terrain like woods should be unpredictable and capricious. Sometimes, even in heavy woods, you get narrow lanes along which LOS can be quite long. But move 2 feet one direction or the other, and suddenly the long lane of sight is blocked by a tree trunk.

So I think it's best if the player can't tell with 100% certainly exactly what the LOS/LOF fire conditions are in terrain like this, short of moving a unit to a certain location, and finding out what they can shoot at.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I read an account of a Jadgtiger killing an American tank by shooting through a house.

[Killkess]

While i agree with your general thoughts i must admit that CMSF currently offers such a big variety of outcomes for a given situation that it sometimes/often feels like randomness.

Back to the smoke-shells: Was it common practice to use Wp rounds against german heavy tanks? I remember reading about the use of WP rounds for this porpouse.

[slysniper]

I have learned to not use my eyes in the game while turning tree on in the game as a way. You normally cannot see anything.

I find the best way in the game for me is to turn it to tree trunks, take the line of sight bar and see if I can get a view to anything in the general area that I think the enemy is. with any unit I am trying to see from a certain area. If I get the blue line, then I know windows of view are possible, then the trick is. Trying to find spots that might let you see out.

Just didthis last night. Enemy tank was 300 meteres out in a open field firing into the woods killing my infantry. I had 3 tanks in the woods, none could see the tank. but line of sight was possible for infantry.

So I looked for low spots on the ground to move the tanks to, so that maybe they could see under the tree limbs. It worked, lost one tank to his, but the other two paid him back.

The point being, managed to find line of sight out of the trees, never using the trees turned on to figure out if it was possible

[Lt Belenko]

I have learned to not use my eyes in the game while turning tree on in the game as a way. You normally cannot see anything.

I find the best way in the game for me is to turn it to tree trunks, take the line of sight bar and see if I can get a view to anything in the general area that I think the enemy is. with any unit I am trying to see from a certain area. If I get the blue line, then I know windows of view are possible, then the trick is. Trying to find spots that might let you see out.

Just didthis last night. Enemy tank was 300 meteres out in a open field firing into the woods killing my infantry. I had 3 tanks in the woods, none could see the tank. but line of sight was possible for infantry.

So I looked for low spots on the ground to move the tanks to, so that maybe they could see under the tree limbs. It worked, lost one tank to his, but the other two paid him back.

The point being, managed to find line of sight out of the trees, never using the trees turned on to figure out if it was possible

I love to see an "<Alt> T" setting added "ALL trees displayed as trunks"

[sburke]

While i agree with your general thoughts i must admit that CMSF currently offers such a big variety of outcomes for a given situation that it sometimes/often feels like randomness.

Back to the smoke-shells: Was it common practice to use Wp rounds against german heavy tanks? I remember reading about the use of WP rounds for this porpouse.

I have seen commentary that discusses the use of WP by American tankers in Lorraine. It seemed to have particular success against the green German crews from the newly formed Panzer Brigades frequently causing them to bail out of otherwise undamaged tanks. I had asked early on before CMBN was released if that kind of behavior would be modelled. It is likely one of those were to attempt to do so would have created a huge issue of them doing it when you didn't want them to not to mention being horrendously difficult to code and create realistic behavior.

[drrowley]

i remember it Rommel's letters to his wife. he talked about running into some panzer wp casualties being unload from a truck. And he was none to happy about it. It seems, some in the German staff thought that, if the Americans can use wp then they good use mustard gas.