What's wrong with the M10's .50 cal?

[TheBlackHand]

Playing Razorback Ridge. I have a platoon of M10's. All of them have .50's on their turrets, all of them show the ammo for these .50's in the UI . . . none of them are able to use these weapons. Why the tease?

The fifty on the M10 was most definitey used in the role in which I would've liked to use it last night ie. suppression or "target light".

Here's plenty of real world examples:

Brassing off a Kraut.

"In the opening phases of the fight the TDs were used in an assault gun role in the infantry front lines. Their .50-cal. machine guns were constantly employed. Targets were personnel, houses, strong points, machine guns, vehicles, and towed guns, as well as tanks and SP guns. One house was fired upon at 300 yards. ".

Audie Murphy says so.

"After exhausting his carbine ammunition, Murphy was preparing to fall back when the .50-caliber machine gun on the turret of the burning tank destroyer caught his eye. Soon the fire would reach the vehicle’s fuel and ammunition, but Murphy knew the gun was his only chance to stop the Germans. He climbed aboard the tank destroyer and began spraying the big .50-caliber at the enemy. Private First Class Anthony V. Abramski later reported, “I saw Lt. Murphy climb on top of the burning tank destroyer while bursts of machine pistol fire from the advancing infantry battered against the hull and tread.”

Murphy knew that the .50-caliber would have no effect on the tanks, so he concentrated his fire on the advancing infantry. ".

Wikipedia: M10 Tank Destroyer.

"A .50-caliber Browning M2HB machine gun could be mounted on the top rear of the turret for use against enemy infantry and for anti-aircraft use, along with 1000 rounds. ".

There's also an often seen video of a GI on back of an M10, firing the .50 at some Germans in a French town. Can't seem to find it anywhere, but I still wanna know why my GI's can't do the same.

(Aha, it just occured to me . . . after writing this . . . that it could be because the M10's are buttoned? I figured this out with the scout cars, I didn't think of it with the TD's. I'll have to check that in the battle this evening. If that's the easy answer, well . . . at least I've posted some interesting stories here.)

[dieseltaylor]

Mounted for AA use! Like it needed it.

The exceptional use and the common use are two different things. I might fancy leaping on to the back of the ol' M10 and blazing away provided I knew for sure there were no enemy, particularly snipers within 1000 metres. I doubt in Normandy I would ever felt that sure.

[Broadsword56]

I think I recall reading a thread about this earlier -- M-10's, the MG is mounted in such a way that a soldier would have to stand outside the turret on the deck of the vehicle to fire it (?). And since we can't do that in CMBN, the MG isn't really usable (?)

[YankeeDog]

The .50 cal on an M10 is mounted on the rear of the turret (it was originally envisioned for AA use). So in order to fire it at forward target, a crew member has to stand on the rear engine deck. Kind of an exposed position, if you know what I mean...

M10s in the game will fire the .50 cal at targets of opportunity to their rear quarter, but this cannot be directly commanded by the player (i.e., the Target order will only direct the M10 where to point its main gun).

Audie Murphy aside, I think this is probably the best way to do things in the game -- I'm not sure I want my M10 crew members hopping out of the turret to engage targets with the .50, and/or turning the turret backwards to use the MG.

Especially later in the war, some M10 crews definitely created improvised mounts for the .50 on the front part of the turret, and/or even added a .30 BMG. Hard to say how common practice this was. But in any event, CMBN doesn't yet depict these kind of non-standard mounts.

[MikeyD]

The M10 .50 Cal is as much of a PITA to use in the game as it was in real life. The pintle is an AAA mount and is in exactly the wrong spot to be used effectively in combat. It necessitates either turning the vehicle butt-end to the enemy or climbing out of the turret onto the engine deck (Imagine a TC having to do that to fire his MG in Iraq!). The troops roundly despised the mg placement. It didn't help either that M10 was a hand-cranked turret so slewing the turret around to bring the .50 to bear was no mean feat.

[winkelried]

I think I recall reading a thread about this earlier -- M-10's, the MG is mounted in such a way that a soldier would have to stand outside the turret on the deck of the vehicle to fire it (?). And since we can't do that in CMBN, the MG isn't really usable (?)

Like the scene in "Band of Brothers" where the Shermans counter-attack the German armor - gives me always laughs - like in one of these cowboy movies.

[YankeeDog]

Like the scene in "Band of Brothers" where the Shermans counter-attack the German armor - gives me always laughs - like in one of these cowboy movies.

Apparently, this was actually done IRL, though the way its depicted in BoB does seem rather improbable -- it seems very unlikely to me that the TC would hop out of the turret and ride on the rear deck while moving with enemy armor in sight. Seems more likely in a stationary overwatch infantry support situation, where the TC can keep the bulk of the turret between himself and any likely incoming small arms fire.

[MikeyD]

There was a fear at the time that the commanders on the ground would be tempted to use M10 TD assets as ersatz medium tanks, a task for which it was badly designed. TDs were meant to be rolling protected AT guns and nothing more. There seemed to have been no compromise in making the TD as un-user-friendly as possible to forestall that role. No bow MG, no coax MG, no turret drive, no turret roof. they might as well have painted in big yellow letters "NOT A TANK" across the turret. M18 Hellcat did get a rig moount for its .50 cal but still no bow MG and no coax.

[winkelried]

they might as well have painted in big yellow letters "NOT A TANK" across the turret.

they seem to have been used quite often as artillery for indirect fire.

[winkelried]

it seems very unlikely to me that the TC would hop out of the turret and ride on the rear deck while moving with enemy armor in sight.

as a TC you want to have your crew on the intercom and the neighbouring tanks on the radio. i doubt this would have been easy together with the handling of the 0.50cal.

[JasonC]

There is nothing about the 50 cal being outside the turret that requires that the man using it be the TC. The TC normally has better things to do. But it shouldn't be hard to draft an infantryman to run the gun from the rear deck. It is rather less exposed that standing around on the ground in your shirt (you do get 30 tons of steel between you and the enemy) and a 50 is a rather more suppressive weapon for reply fire than an M-1.

[winkelried]

There is nothing about the 50 cal being outside the turret that requires that the man using it be the TC. The TC normally has better things to do. But it shouldn't be hard to draft an infantryman to run the gun from the rear deck. It is rather less exposed that standing around on the ground in your shirt (you do get 30 tons of steel between you and the enemy) and a 50 is a rather more suppressive weapon for reply fire than an M-1.

i understand. just have a look at the scene in "Band of Brothers"

[WaltM]

The M10 people new there job...however infantry commanders didn't seem to and frequently employed them as assault guns/tanks in Normandy. That lead to the 50cal AA mount being cut loose and moved to the front of the turret bye battalion armorers. What percentage or exactly how many is unknown. Which would make it difficult for Battlefront to implement it any other way then how they have.

All Tank destroyers got HVAP when it became available starting in August of 44 and had priority for it over all other armor units. The M10 used the same 3in gun through out its production run and there was no early or late in that regard.

The M10s 3in guns HE round had very nearly the same blast radius as the 105 but didn't crater as badly making it a popular indirect fire weapon and the battalions were fully equipped for that role.

[Battlefront.com]

There is nothing about the 50 cal being outside the turret that requires that the man using it be the TC. The TC normally has better things to do. But it shouldn't be hard to draft an infantryman to run the gun from the rear deck. It is rather less exposed that standing around on the ground in your shirt (you do get 30 tons of steel between you and the enemy) and a 50 is a rather more suppressive weapon for reply fire than an M-1.

Not sure how happy the crew would be to have all that barking going on right over their heads. You know, what with having a TD to command and all that

Steve

[StellarRat]

Since the German's had no air force by D-Day it would make sense to re-purpose the .50 to a more useful spot.

[TheBlackHand]

So, you people mean to tell me that when I have an MG42 peppering my troops from 500 yards away, I can't call up my M10 and tell a trooper to man that .50 and suppress the German? You're really telling me that this is impossible and unrealistic? Really?

Sounds like you're making excuses to me. Despite real world examples.

So, the crew doesn't appreciate the sound of the machine gun over their heads or the feel of hot brass? Boo fcking hoo. Tell that to the guys who are advancing under machine gun fire while the fifty, fifty yards behind them, goes unused in their defense.

The fifty should be available for suppression or direct fire. Period.

[Nidan1]

There was a fear at the time that the commanders on the ground would be tempted to use M10 TD assets as ersatz medium tanks, a task for which it was badly designed. TDs were meant to be rolling protected AT guns and nothing more. There seemed to have been no compromise in making the TD as un-user-friendly as possible to forestall that role. No bow MG, no coax MG, no turret drive, no turret roof. they might as well have painted in big yellow letters "NOT A TANK" across the turret. M18 Hellcat did get a rig moount for its .50 cal but still no bow MG and no coax.

The M36B1, which was not produced in large numbers had a browning 30 cal MG coaxialy mounted to the right of the 90mm main gun.

[YankeeDog]

You're really telling me that this is impossible and unrealistic? Really?

[continued rant]

Unrealistic, no. As many (including myself) have noted, it was definitely done, sometimes.

But it is also currently impossible for the game engine to realistically depict this behavior -- the engine just doesn't currently have the capability for soldiers (be they crew or nearby infantry) to "tank ride" and man a rear-pintle AA MG.

It's a game and there are limitations; this is certainly not the only one. If this particular shortcoming is more than you can accept, your only options are to just not play with M10s, or go play some other game entirely.

[MikeyD]

This topic may have to be revisited in the Bulge title. By that time commanders were starting to loosen up on the topic of field modifications (Patton being among the last hold-outs in that regard). M10s with MG pintles moves to the front, or with locally fabricated roof armor. Railings and ladders welded to infantry support Sherman rears for troops transport purposes. I understand pre-cut 1 inch armor plate started being produced in liberated French steel mills, most often welded to M4A1 Sherman bows. But that was then. Normandy battles still have their armor pretty much 'by the book'.

[sburke]

So, you people mean to tell me that when I have an MG42 peppering my troops from 500 yards away, I can't call up my M10 and tell a trooper to man that .50 and suppress the German? You're really telling me that this is impossible and unrealistic? Really?

Sounds like you're making excuses to me. Despite real world examples.

So, the crew doesn't appreciate the sound of the machine gun over their heads or the feel of hot brass? Boo fcking hoo. Tell that to the guys who are advancing under machine gun fire while the fifty, fifty yards behind them, goes unused in their defense.

The fifty should be available for suppression or direct fire. Period.

Rather than try to get someone to man the .50, wouldn't it be more logical the crew would fire their 76mm gun from inside their much better protected compartment than try to play Eddie Murphy? Yeah yeah that was a joke.

[JonS]

Unrealistic, no. As many (including myself) have noted, it was definitely done, sometimes.

It's a game and there are limitations; this is certainly not the only one. If this particular shortcoming is more than you can accept, your only options are to just not play with M10s, or go play some other game entirely.

Also, I'm pretty sure it is possible to employ the 50cal, you just need to think about which way the turret has to be facing in order for the crew to bring it to bear.

[sburke]

Also, I'm pretty sure it is possible to employ the 50cal, you just need to think about which way the turret has to be facing in order for the crew to bring it to bear.

Dang I'd hate to hear the cussin going on when that M10 is firing away with that MG and an StuG trundles up putting one through the turret while the gunner stands there looking at that .50 and muttering "oops".

[YankeeDog]

Yep, if you spin the turret around it will engage of its own accord in the rear quarter; you just can't give the .50 any manual Target orders.

However, since the AI likes to keep its front pointed towards a known threat, especially if the enemy is nearby, the the crew will may ignore your face order, and turn right back around to get the main gun and thick armor pointed and the enemy...

[MikeyD]

There are practical reasons for the M10 in-game acting as it does. The Beta guys got to see what happened when M10s still had a working 'target light' command. It wasn't pretty, I mean it REALLY wasn't pretty. Be grateful it got fixed before release.

[dieseltaylor]

So, you people mean to tell me that when I have an MG42 peppering my troops from 500 yards away, I can't call up my M10 and tell a trooper to man that .50 and suppress the German? You're really telling me that this is impossible and unrealistic? Really?

No and yes in that order. : )

However I do realise in the movies the Krauts are too stupid to nail the guy clambering up the back of the M-10 and swinging this big machine gun towards them.

I have a suspicion that nobody has written up all the incidents where someone started something really gallant and got nailed immediately. Just never reads so well in the military histories.