Infantry firing small arms at tanks is still an issue.

[Vark]

Think yourself lucky, years ago a series of great books, covering aspects of WWII weapon systems came out, the book on tanks had several shots of bareheaded M4 TC's using the fifty whilst standing outside the turret (one even had a pair of aviator glasses on!). I really loved those books and regret not keeping them, as they had useful diagrams, excellent writing and amazing photos, reproduced with amazing clarity.

[StellarRat]

If you're dumb enough to send your troops into battle with no AT assets than don't whine about the outcome. This is a combined arms game. Doing tests in isolation is silly.

[Dadekster88]

Standing upright in a hatch in a fast moving AFV is also a good way to give yourself broken ribs btw.

[Battlefront.com]

Unbroken ribs are for sissies

Steve

[StellarRat]

Standing upright in a hatch in a fast moving AFV is also a good way to give yourself broken ribs btw.

Exactly what my old Bradley commander buddy told me.

[Dadekster88]

Unbroken ribs are for sissies

Steve

Yeah, well they said that about hearing protection at the range and motor pool too. I can't hear crap now... well that's what I tell the wife at least.

[Waffen_PL]

Firing with rifles to tanks is not realistic specially without order or from long distance . I see nothing has changed since release of this game. Few minutes ago I had regular soldiers hiding in a building who thought that firing with rifles to a tank from 140 meters is good idea. Yes, they have succeed! The tank has close the hatches but 20 sec later my squad was dead. Yes sometimes this is useful but only when this is planned and coordinated. But many times they should pass the tanks and engaged infantry only but this is impossible to do or maybe I just don't know how to do that? Maybe you will fix this in next "upgrade"(don't mistake this for patch )

Oh and in these case infantry has ignored even hidding order

[MikeyD]

To my mind infantry not trying to take out exposed TCs would be a huge error on the part of the AI. Up until the last patch people were complaining about Brit tankers' vulnerability when unbuttoned. You can't have it both ways, either shooting the TC is an effective way the neuter an oncoming tank or it isn't. Of course if you have an infantry squad sitting within LOF of an enemy tank a mere 140m away don't blame the AI if they die, blame your own generalship. Its prudent to have a good deal of intervening terrain between your infantry and a hostile tank.

[Waffen_PL]

I will blame AI not my generalship ;P Plan was good They should hide and pass the tank(stuart) open fire on advancing infatnry and then withdrow(they had good route for this). to next position (where was a gun waiting for that stinki stuart) But they ignored cover arc (tank wasn't in it) and hide command. Sometimes it's better for unseen infantry not to fire! and wait. It's basic thing in any ambush

[Sublime]

But they ignored cover arc (tank wasn't in it) and hide command.

Thats very odd. Im surprised they even saw the tank with that combination. What troop quality were they?

[WinOrLose]

Are Brit TC's still fitted with bullet magnets?

[Sublime]

Honestly they've seemed better for awhile, besides the fact they stick out of the tanks more.. I havent ran a true test so I can't tell you for sure, though I'm PBeMing 3 battles with Brits in them, 2 as 1 against and I haven't had inordinate bad or good luck with my TCs and casualties. This keeping in mind that I DID notice that quite a bit when CW first came out.

[RT North Dakota]

Fair point Steve, but the IDF instructed its commanders to stand as tall as possible because they did think that extra 2-3 feet made a difference. Do vehicles suffer reductions in speed if they are buttoned, especially cross country and in difficult going?

Ummm.... not sure about that. The IDF Centurion's were modified with a "lid" turret hatch to ensure only your head popped out. Thus the phrase "commanding heads out," and certainly not "shoulders or waist out". If they ever were told to expose more then their heads, they quickly learnt to ignore it. You certainly are not taught to do that today.

The time you would "stand tall" is when lurking "turret down" which is the default tactical setting in the IDF, as any exposed tank is a dead tank.

[MikeyD]

Are Brit TC's still fitted with bullet magnets?

The TCs now sit much lower in the turrets than they did. Lower than photo evidence would indicate was their habit, actually. But those common photos were of tanks on the march. Within rifle range of the enemy they were probably a little more... prudent.

[c3k]

Photos of tanks IN COMBAT are much more rare than those not in combat. Furthermore, the photographers are often some distance behind the tanks, and on the ground, usually in cover. Thus, good photos of TC's are rare.

The TC standing tall in combat is rare, and presents a "good" propaganda photo. That would get selected and widely disseminated over pictures of men huddled behind protection.

Having said that, you can find photographic evidence of TC's who barely expose their eyeballs over the rim of the turret hatch. That, to me, would be the way to fight if you were within small arms range of the enemy.

In-game, TC vulnerability to small arms seems about right to me.

Ken

[Waffen_PL]

Thats very odd. Im surprised they even saw the tank with that combination. What troop quality were they?

They were regular. Maybe I had bad luck then

[Mad Mike]

To my mind infantry not trying to take out exposed TCs would be a huge error on the part of the AI. Up until the last patch people were complaining about Brit tankers' vulnerability when unbuttoned. You can't have it both ways, either shooting the TC is an effective way the neuter an oncoming tank or it isn't. Of course if you have an infantry squad sitting within LOF of an enemy tank a mere 140m away don't blame the AI if they die, blame your own generalship. Its prudent to have a good deal of intervening terrain between your infantry and a hostile tank.

The shooting part is not so bad, but as soon as the result has been achieved - either a killed TC or buttoned-up tank - the infantry should change its place .. automatically.

If they are in a house, get out of it (behind it).

At least that would make it more realistic.

And the player can not always intervene when stuff like this happens early in a turn (assuming WeGo PBEM, for example).

[sburke]

The shooting part is not so bad, but as soon as the result has been achieved - either a killed TC or buttoned-up tank - the infantry should change its place .. automatically.

If they are in a house, get out of it (behind it).

At least that would make it more realistic.

And the player can not always intervene when stuff like this happens early in a turn (assuming WeGo PBEM, for example).

Automatically? That could be a disaster. Suppose you had them there to prevent an infantry rush and instead a tank blunders by and they shoot the TC then vacate the position. Now suppose the enemy have the rear of the house in LOF, you are now going to vacate right into an ambush. These kinds of scripted responses to limited tactical issues will likely create more headaches for you than the current behavior.

As to TC exposure. If you send your tank into range of enemy infantry unbuttoned, prepare to pay for it. Just a simple fact of the battlefield. I think all of my opponents know I will definitely take the shot despite the risk. The return is just too good. If I suspect the opportunity is going to arise I may give my unit a pause and then try to bug out after 30 seconds or so but those are my orders, not a TAC AI thing.

[Mad Mike]

Automatically? That could be a disaster. Suppose you had them there to prevent an infantry rush and instead a tank blunders by and they shoot the TC then vacate the position. Now suppose the enemy have the rear of the house in LOF, you are now going to vacate right into an ambush. These kinds of scripted responses to limited tactical issues will likely create more headaches for you than the current behavior.

I agree, cases can be constructed ad infinitum to argue for or against automatic behaviour like the one I described. So I'm not really expecting this behaviour to change.

As to TC exposure. If you send your tank into range of enemy infantry unbuttoned, prepare to pay for it. Just a simple fact of the battlefield. I think all of my opponents know I will definitely take the shot despite the risk. The return is just too good. If I suspect the opportunity is going to arise I may give my unit a pause and then try to bug out after 30 seconds or so but those are my orders, not a TAC AI thing.

Yeah, but real human beings would try to kill the TC (if they perceive a good opportunity) and then try to stay alive. They wouldn't be thinking "Oh, I will be staying here no matter that there is a tank 100m away which now knows, with high probability, where I am. If it should proceed to shoot me, well then, that's fair enough..".

But basically I still agree with you, I don't think we will see this kind of sophisticated Tac AI behaviour in CM for some time, if ever.

I don't agree that the current controls are an adequate solution to the general problem though. But, after all, it's just an (imperfect) game.

[sburke]

Yeah, but real human beings would try to kill the TC (if they perceive a good opportunity) and then try to stay alive. They wouldn't be thinking "Oh, I will be staying here no matter that there is a tank 100m away which now knows, with high probability, where I am. If it should proceed to shoot me, well then, that's fair enough..".

But basically I still agree with you, I don't think we will see this kind of sophisticated Tac AI behaviour in CM for some time, if ever.

I don't agree that the current controls are an adequate solution to the general problem though. But, after all, it's just an (imperfect) game.

One thing I have generally found. If I kill the TC in built up terrain, most times the Tank will pop smoke and/or reverse the hell out of there. With few exceptions, if I pop the guy I haven't usually had to pay the price for it. A lot of it has to do with the quality of the crews. I wish BF would actually call the green guys regular. I wouldn't feel so bad at assigning them and they tend to react much more how I'd expect troops to behave under the stress of combat. Broadsword has just been telling me about tank crew behavior in our current battle and a propensity to bail rather quickly when suffering casualites. Granted these aren't generally to small arms fire however.