Targeting when assigning indirect fire, very annoying "feature"

[Cirrus]

I haven't had time to test game that much yet, but still I managed to run across incredibly annoying "feature":

I am viewing my map high up. Enemy at-gun is shooting my tanks. I have mortars at position and at-gun is within their range. Now I want to assign mortars to shoot indirectly at the position where at-gun is. I select mortar, press 'target' and try to move my mouse over the at-gun. And what happens is that the AT-gun icon vanishes, because my mortar does not directly see the unit. Aargh. I have to zoom the map very close to the ground and place the indirect firing spot next to the gun (which is actually drawn, but the crew is not visible). And again for the next mortar.

Why can't the at-gun icon stay dark grey and I could click it and the indirect mortar fire would focus ground under the unit? That way the operation would take 15 seconds and now it takes 5 minutes.

[c3k]

Cirrus,

If you could click on the enemy AT-Gun icon and target the icon, that translates to targeting the unit. What if the AT-Gun moved? Or, if it hid? If the icon disappeared, your mortar would stop firing.

Ken

[Cirrus]

Cirrus,

If you could click on the enemy AT-Gun icon and target the icon, that translates to targeting the unit. What if the AT-Gun moved? Or, if it hid? If the icon disappeared, your mortar would stop firing.

Ken

No. In this situation I can not directly target the at-gun. Game engine "knows" it. Hence it vanishes as target when I try to click it. Instead vanishing it could snap indirect target on the ground under the at-gun unit.

This is the way the old games worked.

[Steiner14]

Well, your mortars can't see the ATG? And you do not have a HQ, that can direct the mortar's fire?

Then your mortar units simply don't know where they would be firing - they wouldn't even be able to area-fire in reality.

IMO that's one of the huge improvements of CMx2 over CMx1 - no more Borg-spotting and the mortars need an observer that directs their fire - either aimed at a unit or area fire. It get's more difficult, but it get's way more realistic, too. It only takes some time until you will get used to it and adapt the tactics accordingly. You will love it.

[Battlefront.com]

Cirrus,

Relative Spotting means that each unit sees only the units it sees. Enemy units a unit can't see are not shown. This is major feature which the game is built around. When you select a unit that can't see something, why should that unit be able to target it in the first place? Or put in terms specific to your situation here:

If your mortar can't see the AT Gun, how would it know (if this were real life) to fire at it at that specific location? In fact, how would it even know there is an AT Gun to target at all? The answer... it wouldn't.

So what you are doing, in effect, is "cheating" (or "gamey") by putting Area Fire down on an exact point which the mortar would have no realistic way of knowing to aim for. We can't actually prevent unrealistic Area Fire, but we can obviously discourage it. Which is why we do not make it easy for players to do this.

If Relative Spotting isn't something you're comfortable with, then play at the Basic Training level of play for a while. This basically transforms the spotting system, and resulting behavior, to Absolute Spotting (which is the norm for wargames, including CMx1). In your situation the icon of the AT Gun will remain visible and you can target it with either direct or Area Fire without difficulty.

Steve

[Cirrus]

Well, your mortars can't see the ATG? And you do not have a HQ, that can direct the mortar's fire?

Then your mortar units simply don't know where they would be firing - they wouldn't even be able to area-fire in reality.

IMO that's one of the huge improvements of CMx2 over CMx1 - no more Borg-spotting and the mortars need an observer that directs their fire - either aimed at a unit or area fire. It get's more difficult, but it get's way more realistic, too. It only takes some time until you will get used to it and adapt the tactics accordingly. You will love it.

Wrong again. My mortars can shoot there. Both of them. I can't just easily set the indirect target for them. I am not suggesting any change to spotting or anything else like that. I just want to set the target easy way and not hard way like now. It's user interface issue, not game mechanics one.

[Cirrus]

Cirrus,

Relative Spotting means that each unit sees only the units it sees. Enemy units a unit can't see are not shown. This is major feature which the game is built around. When you select a unit that can't see something, why should that unit be able to target it in the first place? Or put in terms specific to your situation here:

If your mortar can't see the AT Gun, how would it know (if this were real life) to fire at it at that specific location? In fact, how would it even know there is an AT Gun to target at all? The answer... it wouldn't.

So what you are doing, in effect, is "cheating" (or "gamey") by putting Area Fire down on an exact point which the mortar would have no realistic way of knowing to aim for. We can't actually prevent unrealistic Area Fire, but we can obviously discourage it. Which is why we do not make it easy for players to do this.

If Relative Spotting isn't something you're comfortable with, then play at the Basic Training level of play for a while. This basically transforms the spotting system, and resulting behavior, to Absolute Spotting (which is the norm for wargames, including CMx1). In your situation the icon of the AT Gun will remain visible and you can target it with either direct or Area Fire without difficulty.

Steve

Explained already in previous post a bit. Now more carefully. I do not care if the mortar sees the target or not. I just want to use the real target as quick guide to shoot ground under it.

Game mechanics stays exactly same. It is not for the UI to discourage things. You need to make game mechanics such that it can't be done. Using UI to mask things actually very possible by game mechanics, is in my opinion quite stupid. Problems need to be solved at game mechanics level and UI must be easiest possible to do ALL things that game mechanics allow.

[Steiner14]

Cirrus,

sorry i misunderstood you. And i learned something. Have never tried that gamey workaround.

Steve,

wouldn't it be more realistical, to deny indirect fire of mortars, if they don't have any kind of observer having LOS to the target area?

[Blackcat]

Cirrus,

sorry i misunderstood you. And i learned something. Have never tried that gamey workaround.

Steve,

wouldn't it be more realistical, to deny indirect fire of mortars, if they don't have any kind of observer having LOS to the target area?

I think there might be some confusion here with "Indirect". We cannot, as far as I am aware, fire mortars at any point on the map that they cannot themselves see unless there is a spotter, which does have a LOS, calling for fire.

What I think Cirrus is trying to do is target the ATG whch his mortar hasn't spotted, but another unit has and he is complaining that when he has the mortar selected the icon for the ATG is not shown.

If I am correct what Cirrus is asking for is, in effect, a return to borg spotting. It has nothing to do with the User Interface.

[dbd1963]

I do not care if the mortar sees the target or not. I just want to use the real target as quick guide to shoot ground under it.

When you select a unit that can't see something, why should that unit be able to target it in the first place? Or put in terms specific to your situation here:

If your mortar can't see the AT Gun, how would it know (if this were real life) to fire at it at that specific location? In fact, how would it even know there is an AT Gun to target at all? The answer... it wouldn't.

So what you are doing, in effect, is "cheating"

Asked, answered.

To your other point -- if you want game interfaces built to your design specs, I guess you had better start making games.

[Cirrus]

If I am correct what Cirrus is asking for is, in effect, a return to borg spotting. It has nothing to do with the User Interface.

You are not correct. My mortar CAN fire the position definitely. I just zoom my map to the tree where the gun is. Press target and click mouse next to the tree. And voila, I have indirect target under the tree. I just want easier way to set the same target.

It has everything to do with the user interface.

Asked, answered.

To your other point -- if you want game interfaces built to your design specs, I guess you had better start making games.

Answer like that does not actually answer anything.

Is there a actually reason not make interfaces as easy use as they could be for every purpose? It is now and it would would be after the change up to the user to use it or not.

I find it bit odd that "we want to discourage the use" reason affects the UI smartness. But what was discovered in this thread is that definitely it was known decision to make it like this.

[c3k]

I am confused. It seems like the Cirrus doesn't understand that though the mortars can fire at the location, it is just (possibly) beyond their LOS. Regardless of that, the mortars simply don't SEE the ATG (yet). Therefore, the ATG disappears when the mortars are selected. The game is showing you what the mortars are aware of.

[Wego McPbem]

Cirrus, are you sure you mean indirect? As in having a spotter call in the target? Sounds like you're talking about direct fire (targeting with the mortars themselves)

Either way this is just relative spotting in action. If the mortar crew can't see the gun itself it won't show up when you have them selected.

[Blackcat]

You are not correct. My mortar CAN fire the position definitely. I just zoom my map to the tree where the gun is. Press target and click mouse next to the tree. And voila, I have indirect target under the tree. I just want easier way to set the same target.

It has everything to do with the user interface.

No, I have to say it isn't anything to do with the user interface. As others have said, your mortar unit has not, yet, seen the ATG. This is relative spotting in action and the game is functioning as it should.

What you are asking for is for your mortar to be able to "see" the ATG, and that is an example of borg spotting.

[The Coil]

Yeah, Cirrus appears to be using "direct" to mean "firing at a spotted target" and "indirect" to mean "area firing".

If you want, you can just put a little piece of tape on your screen where the AT gun is, then switch to the mortar and target the piece of tape. That's what I do. It might be a bit "gamey", but I've found it's an acceptable workaround.

[akd]

I think I know what Cirrus is seeing here. Mortars are allowed to area fire into dead space one action spot beyond LOS, for example they can target just to the far side of a wall even though the wall blocks direct LOS to the action spot behind it. So a mortar might be able to see a hull down tank, but it cannot target the tank directly, it must target the defilade ground the tank occupies. Unlike a direct fire weapon, a mortar cannot "aim" at the exposed turret elevated 8 feet off the ground, it must aim at the ground beneath the tank.

[Battlefront.com]

AKD could be correct, but I was also assuming Cirrus was using "indirect" instead of "Area Fire". Fortunately, in this case, it doesn't matter because either way this has to do with Relative Spotting.

Cirrus, when you click on your Mortar do you see the AT Gun icon? If I understand you correctly the answer is "no". This means your Mortar Team hasn't spotted that AT Gun. The fact it can draw LOS/LOF to that particular spot is not relevant. Being able to see a spot on the map only gives your unit a theoretical chance of seeing an enemy unit in that spot. The chance depends on a wide range of factors, none of which are relevant to your issue. Therefore, if Unit A hasn't spotted Unit B, then Unit B's icon does not appear when you have Unit A selected.

Again, this is a clear issue of Relative Spotting doing exactly what it is supposed to do. The UI is functioning perfectly as intended. If this isn't what you want, then play on Basic Training level and this will all go away. Of course the Borg problem will be back in play, but that's unavoidable.

Steve

[Sitting Duck]

...I have mortars at position and at-gun is within their range. Now I want to assign mortars to shoot indirectly at the position where at-gun is. I select mortar, press 'target' and try to move my mouse over the at-gun. And what happens is that the AT-gun icon vanishes, because my mortar does not directly see the unit...

Why can't the at-gun icon stay dark grey and I could click it and the indirect mortar fire would focus ground under the unit? That way the operation would take 15 seconds and now it takes 5 minutes.

I think I might understand the point. Maybe.

In order to "shoot indirectly," the CMBN indirect fire interface requires that you select a valid spotter, first. That spotter must have LOS to the "position where" the enemy unit is and have a communication line to the indirect shooter.

I think that Cirrus is suggesting that these steps would be better handled by the engine in the background. So, rather than first selecting the spotter, the player would just select the indirect fire weapon. Enemy icons that are visible to some valid spotter (in command) would remain on the map, either in bright color (direct fire, visible to the unit) or dark (indirect fire, visible to a valid spotter). Enemy units that were not visible directly by the unit or indirectly by a valid spotter would not be visible on the map.

Did I summarize that correctly, Cirrus? If so, this isn't "gamey," nor "borg spotting." This is simply a user interface issue.

I'm not sure how off-map resources would be handled. I guess they could be called upon using the current interface or an adaptation of the above (i.e., select the resource from the list, then enemy icons would remain on the map or not depending on valid spotter. Note there would only be "dark" colored units since by definition off-map resources don't have direct LOS).

Is that close, Cirrus?

[akd]

AKD could be correct, but I was also assuming Cirrus was using "indirect" instead of "Area Fire". Fortunately, in this case, it doesn't matter because either way this has to do with Relative Spotting.

Actually, I was wrong. Mortars can directly target a partially visible unit in defilade ground with mortar fire. Targeting the icon will "snap to" the enemy unit. However, I would be careful doing this with any enemy contact that is likely to pop in and out of view, especially in defilade ground, as the mortar will stop trying to target the unit when LOS is lost, which will often happen before they've walked their rounds onto the target. Better to target the ground in these cases and cease fire when you estimate sufficient effect on target.

[Steiner14]

Sitting Duck,

no matter if you nailed down what Cirrus means, your idea seems to me to be a very elegant UI enhancement regarding indirect fire weapons.

[Cirrus]

I think I might understand the point. Maybe.

In order to "shoot indirectly," the CMBN indirect fire interface requires that you select a valid spotter, first. That spotter must have LOS to the "position where" the enemy unit is and have a communication line to the indirect shooter.

I think that Cirrus is suggesting that these steps would be better handled by the engine in the background. So, rather than first selecting the spotter, the player would just select the indirect fire weapon. Enemy icons that are visible to some valid spotter (in command) would remain on the map, either in bright color (direct fire, visible to the unit) or dark (indirect fire, visible to a valid spotter). Enemy units that were not visible directly by the unit or indirectly by a valid spotter would not be visible on the map.

Did I summarize that correctly, Cirrus? If so, this isn't "gamey," nor "borg spotting." This is simply a user interface issue.

I'm not sure how off-map resources would be handled. I guess they could be called upon using the current interface or an adaptation of the above (i.e., select the resource from the list, then enemy icons would remain on the map or not depending on valid spotter. Note there would only be "dark" colored units since by definition off-map resources don't have direct LOS).

Is that close, Cirrus?

Something along lines of that. In my situation (or when I came across this, too bad I did not save scenario) I did not even care who actually was spotting the at-gun or the ground where it was sitting. But what I believe the situation was that the mortar unit ITSELF could see the area, but could not spot the at-gun.

About the behavior of ui: If I remember correctly when I selected the mortar unit the AT-gun was still visible (but dark grey). BUT if i move mouse towards it, the indicator icon vanishes.

My actions and results: I could set the mortar target to the ground at-gun and shoot the ground too by zooming the map and placing the target carefully to the spot where at-gun is sitting. (We call shooting mortars with arc always indirect fire in our language, but in game terms this is area fire?)

I can not understand why I can't do this faster when I am really zoomed out by clicking the unit icon. End result would be same as in the above. I shoot (area fire?) to the ground spot under at unit.

This has absolutely nothing to do with game mechanics, borg spotting or anything. It just UI change. It would enable me to do what I already could do in that situation, just faster.

And I must repeat again those who are insisting somehing else. Pure UI behavior change has nothing to do with game mechanics, borg spotting or anything.

Yeah, Cirrus appears to be using "direct" to mean "firing at a spotted target" and "indirect" to mean "area firing".

If you want, you can just put a little piece of tape on your screen where the AT gun is, then switch to the mortar and target the piece of tape. That's what I do. It might be a bit "gamey", but I've found it's an acceptable workaround.

You are correct. I mixed up the terminology.

[akd]

You had spotted enemy icons that were "greyed-out" when you had one of your own units selected? Doesn't this only happen in scenario author test mode?

[Michael Emrys]

So, rather than first selecting the spotter, the player would just select the indirect fire weapon. Enemy icons that are visible to some valid spotter (in command) would remain on the map, either in bright color (direct fire, visible to the unit) or dark (indirect fire, visible to a valid spotter). Enemy units that were not visible directly by the unit or indirectly by a valid spotter would not be visible on the map.

Interesting approach and certainly streamlined from the player's viewpoint. I have no idea how much work it would take to implement the code though. If it can be done, I hope it would be done.

Michael

[Cirrus]

You had spotted enemy icons that were "greyed-out" when you had one of your own units selected? Doesn't this only happen in scenario author test mode?

I am pretty sure I did now use that mode any of my test games. BUT I used the lowest normal difficulty level yes if that has something to do with anything.

[Sitting Duck]

Sitting Duck,

no matter if you nailed down what Cirrus means, your idea seems to me to be a very elegant UI enhancement regarding indirect fire weapons.

Thank you, Steiner14.

I've actually give this UI some thought separately. I find the current indirect fire UI a little clunky. How I use the current UI depends on the situation - which is probably an indication that improvements could be made.

If I understood Cirrus' point, I think it stems from his approach to indirect fire. He first figures out a target, then immediately jumps to the indirect fire resource he would like to use. He prefers to use a high POV so he can see enemy unit icons and friendly indirect fire icons. FWIW - this approach (select firing unit, select target) is very similar to the approach for direct fire.

If I understand Cirrus' approach, given the way the UI works, he might accomplish his task by selecting the enemy icon first, rather than the indirect fire resource. If I understand the UI, by selecting the enemy icon first, he would see which of his units can "see" the enemy, and then "figure out" which of them would be a valid spotter for his various indirect fire resources. I can see that this could be a bit cumbersome, especially if there are lots of friendly units with LOS to the enemy unit.

I mentioned one complication for off-map indirect fire resources. I think there might be another, namely that spotters have their own impact on resolution of the targeting. So, even if the UI were to allow the player to start with selecting the indirect fire resource first, there is still the issue of selection of a spotter if there are several with LOS & command.

I don't want to seem like I'm bashing the current UI, at all. This is a complex concept.

To summarize my understanding...

Direct Fire Process (high level)

Select Firing Unit

Select Target

Indirect Fire Process (high level)

Select Enemy Unit

Select Spotting Unit

Use Indirect Fire Interface to select Firing Unit

My Best Guess at Cirrus' Indirect Fire Process (high level)

Select Firing Unit

Select Target

<need to select spotting unit, if more than one has LOS and command>

<need interface to select firing unit if off-map>