Razorback ridge (courage and fortitude campaign)

[Fetchez la Vache]

Not really enjoying this one to be honest. Finding myself just trying to get through it to get to the next mission. I'm re-loading and using knowledge to avoid strongpoints. Which I never normally do, which says something.

Not sure what I would have need to make this a 'better' mission. I'd start with some decent arty from the go so I could prep-strike the bejezus out of the farm. And maybe a pioneer squad with very limited satchel charges, just to open up a couple of new routes.

On the other hand I fully accept that you can't win them all. But I prefer bloody noses to be of the "forlorn hope" variety than the "BANG, you're dead, game over" type. :-)

[womble]

Not really enjoying this one to be honest. Finding myself just trying to get through it to get to the next mission. I'm re-loading and using knowledge to avoid strongpoints. Which I never normally do, which says something.

Not sure what I would have need to make this a 'better' mission. I'd start with some decent arty from the go so I could prep-strike the bejezus out of the farm. And maybe a pioneer squad with very limited satchel charges, just to open up a couple of new routes.

On the other hand I fully accept that you can't win them all. But I prefer bloody noses to be of the "forlorn hope" variety than the "BANG, you're dead, game over" type. :-)

The pioneers being in the third or fourth echelon and not having arty available for prep barrages are indeed very poor features of the scenario (The entire campaign doesn't at any point give you enough arty at T-time for a preparatory barrage that might level a few buildings - you are always being monged into combat unprepared, off-balance and without adequate support, and sometimes without enough ammo). Major Sneider is a doofus. Really. Why'd he even bother putting the M10s in the column? They'd be safer laagered up a mile back and would do as much damn good. As it is, they're just buckets full of artillerymen waiting for stray mortar rounds to land in them.

=== Spoiler - well, more, perhaps by way of clarification of something in the briefing... ===

The briefing says you won't have time to incorporate any replacements before the assault on du Puits. Take that to include "bullets" as well as "troops". Scavenge every bullet, ATrocket and launcher that you can out of the vehicles that turn up. You don't know if they'll be appearing at the town, and if they do, you can guarantee it won't be at any time where your lead platoons will have a chance to replenish from them before being called to engage the enemy. Any mortar bombs used in Razorback won't be there to be used in the final battle either. Another example of Sneider's, or maybe Wyche's incompetence: it's 2 full days between Razorback and the town: were rifle bullets really that hard to come by in Normandy? Cherbourg has just fallen, ISTR...

[DavidFields]

I sort of assume College was meant to be lost, or the campaign would be torture. Seems like he same with Ridge.

I took the loss with College, enjoyed University and learned a few things. And then went cross country for a very nice Bumper Cars--just finishing that.

*******************************not much of a spoiler--University

What I learned with University was that I need to practice tactics with trenches. My men took the hill, piled into the trenches, where there was then a MG battle between them and the Germans behind bocage. Got'em! I thought, with terrain advantage.

But I felt that I ended up the worse in that battle, with my men in the trenches taking a lot of causualties--casualties which were in the end unnecessary (I was not going to take the distant right zone--happy just to take the road exit zone, which was only possible because of the saluatory effects of night falling). If I did it over again, I would put fewer people in the trenches, and watch more carefully how I positioned them. Is the facing of the trench actually a factor in CMBN? If someone is firing end-on into a trench, and a trench which is sloped down to the firing unit, does that somewhat negate the protective effects of the trench?

[DavidFields]

Of course, even taking the long way, one eventually gets to Ridge. It will be interesting to see if German loses from previous missions affect the difficulty. On the other hand, my losses include the 3rd platoon HQ, so I can't call any deep 105 artillery.

[Agua]

Is the facing of the trench actually a factor in CMBN? If someone is firing end-on into a trench, and a trench which is sloped down to the firing unit, does that somewhat negate the protective effects of the trench?

If I'm understanding the situation you're describing, my experience is that that is, and should be, the case. Is this what you're describing? (squad) ______(enemy)_____ where the assaulting unit is firing lengthwise down the trench at what would be, sort of, the "flank" of the trench?

[DavidFields]

If I'm understanding the situation you're describing, my experience is that that is, and should be, the case. Is this what you're describing? (squad) ______(enemy)_____ where the assaulting unit is firing lengthwise down the trench at what would be, sort of, the "flank" of the trench?

Yes. In CM1 I don't think it mattered. It matters in CM2?

[womble]

Yes. In CM1 I don't think it mattered. It matters in CM2?

It does, indeed. Stems from the pixel-for-pixel ballistics for the incoming rounds. Shooting down into a trench on a lower elevation, or along the length of a trench will reduce the cover afforded to troops in the trench.

[TheBlackHand]

Thanks game designers, great way to kick us all in the nuts.

Will any of these battles (pathfinding problems) be fixed in the patch, or is this campaign strictly made for masochists?

[Agua]

The pioneers being in the third or fourth echelon and not having arty available for prep barrages are indeed very poor features of the scenario (The entire campaign doesn't at any point give you enough arty at T-time for a preparatory barrage that might level a few buildings - you are always being monged into combat unprepared, off-balance and without adequate support, and sometimes without enough ammo). Major Sneider is a doofus. Really. Why'd he even bother putting the M10s in the column? They'd be safer laagered up a mile back and would do as much damn good. As it is, they're just buckets full of artillerymen waiting for stray mortar rounds to land in them.

Col. Wyche is a !@#$ing halfwit as well. He must have a son in law in K Coy. It always arrives 20+ minutes late and, adding insult to injury, rode in on deuce & a halfs in bumper cars. I've really come to resent K Coy. I may have something special for them in Razorback.

[womble]

Col. Wyche is a !@#$ing halfwit as well. He must have a son in law in K Coy. It always arrives 20+ minutes late and, adding insult to injury, rode in on deuce & a halfs in bumper cars. I've really come to resent K Coy. I may have something special for them in Razorback.

I was starting to believe 'L Coy' didn't even exist, not having seen it until 15 minutes into the last mission. At least K Coy has done some bleeding alongside I Coy. Wierdly, at the beginning of that last mission, they (I and K) only differed by one man in total strength. And L Coy has somehow managed to mislay 3rd Plt...

Edit: Oh yes, Wyche is an incompetent blowhard, too. He can't manage a supply train, and never includes his subordinates in his contingency plans, so they end up unprepared for his mercurial demands. I don't care if I get repair and resupply tomorrow morning or afternoon, just let the sappers clear some lanes through the mines overnight and let me run the full battalion and its support in at dawn. You'll have it in your pocket before you've shaved, Colonel, and before any of the other units in the Regiment are ready to move out.

[bodkin]

Was this mission even tested? Where is the enjoyment in this digital mind torture?

[Nigel Ewels]

Where did the Krauts get all that fire support? I just don't enjoy 50 minutes of being mortared and shelled. I've played three times now and every time any promising move by my troops usually ends with a 81mm or arty round landing in the middle of them. That's if they've survived the traffic jam, which usually gets a round or two causing maximum casualties. No pioneers until half way through. Not enough fire support or prep given the toughness of the enemy positions. With only 50 minutes to achieve the objectives its very tough to do this without heavy casualties. I'd like to stick the designer of the campaign on Razorback Ridge for a few minutes with L Company.

[slysniper]

Well, I would like to thank the designer for one he!! of a campaign. I think it if funny how many hate it because it can actually hand them a defeat in a battle. I am in the mist of it now, on the third mission. First went smooth, second was a nightmare, but I thought I had it at one point. had managed to get my infantry past the bridge up into the marshes. had cleared the wire and mines hand been demoed and marked, still had four tanks, thought I had cleared AT guns and was pushing them forward for direct support arty on the enemy infantry. That was when I was hit by a AT gun I thought I had destroyed on the flank. IT killed two of my tanks in twenty seconds, a third tank found a marked mine and became immobile. Leaving me one tank to support my infantry trying to push past the marsh and one on the road that could only fire on the hill because of its stuck location. Then the enemy arty began to rain on my forward units again, within momonts I had two platoons of fighting men basically vanish.

I found the cease fire button and knew that I just been handed a assault stopping beating by a AI that was designed to do just that. For me I was lucky and it gave me a draw and now I am on the third mission and have pushed through that area with little difficulty. Since I had more arty, fresh troops and knew where the enemy is located because of the previous battle..

Yes, the campaign can be played one time only, enjoyable and frustrating in a good way. if you can accept the fact that the designer had a goal to create one he!! of a situation for you to try and tackle and you are trying to see if you can handle a fight that is not going to be the typical cake walk.

I think it is a masterful piece of work, but it should have the warning that it is for skilled players that can accept a hard fight.

It sure is not a scenario for the newer player to tackle, easy to see it would be frustrating. Not trying to say that many skilled players have not been frustrated by it also. But I hate seeing the mind set that you should not have to be challenged to your upmost skills to see if you can tackle very difficult situations.

[womble]

Where did the Krauts get all that fire support?

Once you've done it to your satisfaction, it might be worth going back to a setup save and 'cease fire'ing after turn 1. You might be surprised at how little mortar support they really have. Or maybe the ammo count for units seen in 'Review Map' is off somehow...

I just don't enjoy 50 minutes of being mortared and shelled. I've played three times now and every time any promising move by my troops usually ends with a 81mm or arty round landing in the middle of them. That's if they've survived the traffic jam, which usually gets a round or two causing maximum casualties. No pioneers until half way through. Not enough fire support or prep given the toughness of the enemy positions. With only 50 minutes to achieve the objectives its very tough to do this without heavy casualties. I'd like to stick the designer of the campaign on Razorback Ridge for a few minutes with L Company.

Hmm. If your I-3 platoon (the one in the toolsheds) is all messed up, you might struggle, but try it again without doing more than raiding the resupply lorries with your main force, and pushing the toolsheds platoon up the hill towards the major VLs. Just because they're cut off doesn't mean they have a strong enemy force ahead of them, just that they have one between them and the main force. Save your mortars for the next scenario and let the lieutenant have the use of the 105s to soften up the objectives.

[DavidFields]

Razoback Ridge, potential strategy guide

***********************************************

Even going around the long way, through University, this has not been easy. Minor defeat the first time through, and I have had to do post-hoc analysis on what appears to be a bit of a puzzle scenario.

As usual with this (remarkable) Campaign, I think you need to analyze each scenario carefully ahead of time to get the big picture, curb one's ambitions, and conserve troops and ammo.

To wit: (Warrior, WEGO) Not yet fully implemented, but this is my current plan:

1. With the AI defense I drew, my troops in the Toolshed could not take one step toward the back objectives without getting destroyed.

2. The scenario seems designed to force you down the middle, through the Field of Doom . That takes the Flanking German forces out of play (They are actually noted as Flanking forces in their unit description, and the point value for killing them is low)

3. After the Toolshed forces fight off the attack coming up the hill, send them down the bocaged alley, then cross into the woods, and come at L Butte from behind. (More specifically, and this is what I need to change in my second run through, take out the HQ on the second floor, firing through the windows--first, befor the next step)

3. Positition a squad, and the MG in the bocage on either side of the large La Butte building, and decimate the out-in-the-open defenders.

4. Likely I will use my mortar module to try to destroy the first La Butte building and its defenders. Granted, that will likely leave me mortar-light in the last scenario, but I think I must take La Butte in Razorback or I will not be able to proceed.

5. The main force MGs are positioned at the bocage of the Field of Doom , and fire at any identified enemy forces around that field.

6. When the AFVs enter, have them blow a hole in the bocage, and enter the Field (those who have engineers...great. Next time through, I will be more careful with them in College). Suppressing/killing/driving off anything which could be infantry AT--which is surprisingly tough.

7. Then the AFVs and MGs suppress/kill drive off anything anything around the field which if plain infantry.

8. Move platoons to the left bocage and fire over to the Crossroads, to drive away infantry their.

9. Then, maybe, take other platoons, cross the Field (the mine at the exit of the Field is ...just cruel), enter La Butte, and perhaps cross over to Crossroads.

[Of course, one scoops all the ammo out of the jeeps/truck--something I neglected to do in Bumper Cars]

I think that if you take La Butte, keep the Toolshed, kill enough troops and HQs in La Butte, one might have a Marginal Victory. The above positions me to take Crossroads if that is needed for the Victory. The point is that it would not be worth the loss of even a squad to move the Victory to Tactical.

I have been playing this Campaign since the game was released. If I get through this thing, and if I then played it through completely again to try in order to master some of its nuances (don't know that my nerves could stand it--it is somewhat exhausting)(I would still take the loss in School. University is the one I want to most replay--loved watching the troops file up to cross the bridge, and I think I could lose a lot fewer forces in replay), I think this one Campaign could carry me almost into the release of the next module.

[Agua]

Your approach sounds reasonable and a good example of making the best out of what your dealt given your lack of engineers.

Only thing that jumps out at me is those AFVs don't have much in the way of HE loadout and it may take the majority of what you have to blow a hole in the bocage. IIrc, the MG on the TDs fires rearward only, so it's going to be tough to get suppression out of them without the HE.

The approach I took involved working the second platoon from the setup point around the crossroad then coming into the field from the back. While suppressing the Germans with the first platoon as per your #8. I haven't tried it, but its not inconceivable that you could suppress the crossroads Germans from the front by commencing fire at the furtherest allowed by the terrain while working both platoons around or, hell, start as per your #8 and once you drive them off by flanking, send the first platoon back around the crossroad to the back side of that field as well. BUT, TDs and their HE were integral to the next phase of my approach and you're pretty much hosed there without engineers.

[DavidFields]

Thank you, Agua, for your thoughtful reply.

I had not noticed that the TD MGs only fire rearward. That is very important information. They were firing, but maybe it was just AP rounds. If I turn them around, the MG may be more suppressive than the AP rounds?

.....you are correct that it took all the HE to open the hedgerow.

"working the second platoon...around the crossroads then coming into the field from the back": doesn't that bring into plan the german flanking units to the left?

And did you win College and not do University? My units are fairly banged up from going through University. I thought, maybe, the Germans were also, but there are enough units confronting me that I am not sure if that is correct.

[Agua]

[edited to include - real time and elite]

Rankorian,

re: TD MG, could be wrong - check me on that. [Edit - yeah, rearward 50 cal, but they do use them]

re: AP rounds only - hell if it worked for you it worked., I would have thought the AP would have to put a hole through a soldier to take him out, but maybe the shock of big piece of metal going *thunk* next to you is enough to suppress a fire team. THAT's good information to know.

re: working around to left - once you clear the center of the hedgehogs at the crossroads, there is a gap in the bocage into the field behind the Germans defending the crossroad. At THAT point, you're protected from the death complex on the left. You can move forward within those fields between the two main roads by carefully checking your LOS with a combination of elevation and bocage providing cover and concealment. BUT you need engineers to blast holes for you to progress along a route largely free of concentrated fire within those fields as well.

When the 105s come in, I sent the vet FO along to a location on the left side of that crossroad field, where he could spot the big hill on the left, then sent the reg FO to a spot on the road fronting the left flank to direct for for the 60s on a clump of woods to the left just across that stream. With the AI plan I drew, there was a medium mortar and HMG team in there, so it needed some attention too. [edited to include the following: also sent just about every MG team to set up along the road on the left at various spots while the big stuff on the hill was suppressed so as to make sure everything stayed down]

While the arty is going down and suppressing everything on the left, I was somehow able to get a platoon back down on to the left (I'm going from memory from a couple weeks back now, but it seems like it was a gap back into the road on the left, further down towards the obj points at the end - maybe(?) from the next field on the left from the crossroad field(?) - sorry, old timer's disease). From there, you can figure the obvious. At some point there around the end I brought most of the tool shed platoon to combine on those upper foxholes. [Edited to include the following: The TDs I worked into the fields on the right to suppress / eliminate pockets in the bocage firing on the platoon working its way towards the big point objs. Biggest monster in there was an 81mm using direct fire. Give him something to worry about and it buys you time in cover while the TDs blast the other obstacles to getting through those lower fields. Otherwise, your troops are out of LOS from the left, but Mr. Johnny on the spot with an 81 keeps you jumping into fire from his buddies in the bocage]

Won "School of hard knocks" the second try, not the first. [edited to include the following: After about the first 15-20 minutes of looking at school beat me up, I figured there was no way *I* was going to have any type of force left sending inf across that bridge, so I restarted and forced an AI surrender with arty and tanks only. ]

[Edited again to add: But I Like that approach you're suggesting. I may go back and give that a try just to see how well that works out on my own]

[TheBlackHand]

I'm on my third attempt with this battle. The previous two were Tactical Defeats, which caused my entire campaign to result in failure. I have come to the realization that there is no possible way I can actually win this scenario. Too far to go with too few troops. I don't have enough men to hold the toolsheds and take the crossroads before the reinforcements arrive. If I wait that long, I don't think I have enough time to move to the end of the map, and fight at the same time. Gonna give it another go though.

A couple of things that I noticed (and which caused a couple of screaming fits).

I set up an HQ to call artillery 60mm mortars on the crossroads and on the MG position across the left side of the valley. The HQ unit was +1 for leadership, so I figure he knew how to call arty. The mortars were not too far behind him and within voice/visual contact. Well, on both occasions, I ordered a mortar team to fire on the crossroads . . . but this team put ALL of their rounds down in the creek. 100 - 150 yards from where I directed thier fire. WTF? I ordered another team to fire on the crossroads and they did, successfully, but by this time my mortar ammo was practically depleted. Additionally, one team had a TOT of 4 minutes . . . it took at least five minutes before the first round left the tube and it probably took another three or four turns before they fired a volley. WTF?? They weren't suppressed in any way. Were they just an incompetent team, Murphy's Law or what?

Then there's the thing about the M10's and their .50 cal. I would've liked the TD to use his .50 to suppress the MG team across the river . . . instead of wasting HE on it. Why is this not possible? Turn the damn turret and use the fifty. The .50 on the TD just sits there, unused/unusable.

Also, I noticed a schreck team take about five shots from a hedge near the middle of the map. I had two MG teams and two ammo bearer teams, plus a couple of headquarters units in direct view of this hedge, from about 100-125yds. NOBODY pinpointed ANY backblast from these numerous panzerschreck shots. Thats not right, right? I would think there would be SOME waft of backblast smoke rising above the hedge. Yeah, there was a contact marker . . . but no smoke. I think there should be smoke, rain or no rain. From everything I've read and seen about WW2 bazooka type weapons . . . there is a LOT of backblast. (In fact, this is why we can't fire them from buildings anymore.)

About the toolsheds. I had four or five guys in the larger shed and four or five in the shed by the back of the map. The guys in the large shed seem to be cut down as if they're holed up in tents. The building seems to provide zero cover. Why? Wouldn't these guys do SOMETHING to fortify their position? The guys in the back shed fared OK the first time. The second time, all but one of them were cut down by one rifle grenade and the last guy surrendered. I only have about 8 - 12 guys to hold the sheds.

I also was wondering if engineers can clear obstacles and if there is a way to direct them to blow vehicle vs. infantry sized holes in hedges?

[womble]

About the toolsheds. I had four or five guys in the larger shed and four or five in the shed by the back of the map. The guys in the large shed seem to be cut down as if they're holed up in tents. The building seems to provide zero cover. Why? Wouldn't these guys do SOMETHING to fortify their position? The guys in the back shed fared OK the first time. The second time, all but one of them were cut down by one rifle grenade and the last guy surrendered. I only have about 8 - 12 guys to hold the sheds.

Ouch. I can see how a dozen guys couldn't make any headway out of the sheds. It's a bit of a lottery as to which of your platoons took heavy casualties in the previous scenario(s) and if you've ended up with so few there, you're not going to be able to sneak the backstop objectives out from under the Germans' nose.

The larger shed, in my go-through of this, was under fire from an MG at a slightly higher elevation, which spelled doom for the HQ and half the ammo bearer team before I noticed in my first runthrough. One got knocked down. His mate came to do buddy aid in front of the window and the elevation of the MG meant the window sill was giving no protection to speak of. Rinse and repeat...

4 Rifles, or a BAR team (ideally it should be the MMG - did you get one? But I couldn't find a place where a deployed MMG could fire down the lane...) should be enough to stop any infantry attack up that back lane. Find the AP with the longest target reach down that corridor and it's possible to stop that platoon cold with no losses. Don't try and get cute with MGs or additional teams covering just the very top of the run; they'll get chewed up.

The killer by the other toolshed could be grenades, or it could be the ATG across the valley. You can stay out of sight of the ATG, but I think you're screwed if you've got less than a dozen infantry to try and suppress then flank the HMG across the road and hold the other building.

I think you may be right about the attack along the ridge. You aren't given the tools you need early enough, IMO, so if you can't sneak a win using the Toolshed platoon, you're scuppered.

[Agua]

Then there's the thing about the M10's and their .50 cal. I would've liked the TD to use his .50 to suppress the MG team across the river . . . instead of wasting HE on it. Why is this not possible? Turn the damn turret and use the fifty. The .50 on the TD just sits there, unused/unusable.

I noticed there is no "target light" option on the M10. I suppose if you use "target", the main gun turns around. When I checked in the above post to confirm the rearward orientation of the .50, I note that in the little qb test I set up, one of the M10 crew fired on a section of germans to its rear with the MG, on his own, and the TD has plenty of HE. I don't know if they'll do that to a soft target consistently or if they'll just change their facing while rotating the turret so as to fire their main gun. May want to give that a try where you reverse into LOS (or changing facing?) to see if the TD will choose the MG and then stay with it.

[phil stanbridge]

Goodness me talk about a tough mission! I've played it through twice now, and have just advanced on to the next mission with a draw, which will have to do.

But it was one hard slog the entire duration and I got plastered by enemy mortar rounds and heavier artillery, plus sporadic machine gun fire from the flanks. I opted for the crossroads even though they were a pig to advance. Those bloody barricades! I lost a lot of men there. My TD's were next to useless and I only had 32 60mm rounds, and some 105 stuff as support. The rest was either empty or my mortar teams had been so weakened by the previous missions there were not enough men to set the mortars up in the first place. I lost men on the flanks, to the 'uber' AT guns - I hit them really hard with machine gun fire and mortar/artillery rounds and STILL they kept firing. At the end of the mission they were down to 1 or 2 men manning each gun, but none of them were knocked out! Talk about frustrating.

Then I suffered heavy casualties to the enemy artillery rounds which never ceased the entire mission. As soon as I moved my platoons into what I deemed was a safe place the arty was never far away. I lost a lot of men because i grouped them up, but I didnt have much choice - you start out in one corner of the map all squashed up, and any movement attracts fire as you start to advance over the hills. So I stuck really. And I could barely advance because of those barricades. I did make good use of smoke however, which helped my progress. I eventually got a couple of depleted squads up to the centre and started picking fights with the enemy that were dug in there.

The only thing that really seemed to work in my favour - I left the platoon alone who were guarding the tool sheds and they did a good job by themselves stopping the german onslaught. In the end I lost 49 KIA, with 35 wounded, they lost 48 KIA which I found kind of coincidental.

[womble]

That sounds ominous for 'La Haye'... Unless I was just unlucky to not get any ammo replenishment.

[phil stanbridge]

That sounds ominous for 'La Haye'... Unless I was just unlucky to not get any ammo replenishment.

Haha yes, ominous indeed. I have started La Haye without any mortar support and all of my platoons are seriously depleted. I could have sworn I was due some replacements. The only teams I have at full strength are machine guns with plentiful ammunition for them. I really need to use these to their maximum now.

How many missions are there in the campaign out of interest or is this it?

[womble]

Haha yes, ominous indeed. I have started La Haye without any mortar support and all of my platoons are seriously depleted. I could have sworn I was due some replacements.

To give the briefing for Razorback its due, it does say not to expect any time to incorporate replacements before the assault on La Haye du Puits. It fails to mention that it means replacement bullets, not just personnel.

The only teams I have at full strength are machine guns with plentiful ammunition for them. I really need to use these to their maximum now.

Well, good luck. You do get lots of reinforcements, so you might squeak it... Look after those MGs though...

How many missions are there in the campaign out of interest or is this it?

La Haye is the finale. I started the campaign cos it said 4-6 missions. I've been wondering how you could only get 4 missions out of it, and realised that it's probably the first opportunity you have to have successively done badly enough to lose the campaign in toto. So long as you don't bomb out sooner, it's 6 missions if you win School, 7 if you have to go to University. I think. Don't have access to the raw campaign, but I haven't seen anyone mention any other battles than those that would be needed for what I've just stated.