Marders

[sand digger]

Moving on from the armour accuracy threads, Marders do seem to be just a bit too vulnerable, its understood that they are thinly armoured but it does not follow from that that every hit on one is a kill. Their hull down profile is not particularly bulky and besides, any hit above the gun is basically only going through a shield and not going to rattle around inside like in a tank.

Being open means that the crew should be able to spot much better than in a tank so realistically, all things being equal, the Marder should get the first shot off. Also they would be less claustrophobic to fight in than a tank which should have implications for crew morale. Most of the stuff I have read here, unfairly in my opinion, concentrates on the Marder's disadvantages. Anyone for a fan club?

Great game though, Mr Fussy says buy it

[dpabrams]

Also they would be less claustrophobic to fight in than a tank which should have implications for crew morale

While the Marder crews saved money on air fresheners and candles; the interior didn't smell nearly as bad as the diesel, feet and ass smell of an enclosed tank. However that open fresh feeling that Herman got, with long locks of blonde hair flowing in the open top was often tragically cut short. Snipers, air bursts, grenades and shell splinters made open topped crews vulnerable. I have seen in game mortar kills with rifle grenades and HMG's.

Marders are risky as are any open topped AFV. Another case of GWSS. German Weapon Superiority Syndrome.

[Magpie_Oz]

In battle feelings of claustrophobia are generally secondary to ballistophobia.

[sand digger]

Waiting for sensible comments.

[stikkypixie]

Moving on from the armour accuracy threads, Marders do seem to be just a bit too vulnerable, its understood that they are thinly armoured but it does not follow from that that every hit on one is a kill. Their hull down profile is not particularly bulky and besides, any hit above the gun is basically only going through a shield and not going to rattle around inside like in a tank.

Being open means that the crew should be able to spot much better than in a tank so realistically, all things being equal, the Marder should get the first shot off. Also they would be less claustrophobic to fight in than a tank which should have implications for crew morale. Most of the stuff I have read here, unfairly in my opinion, concentrates on the Marder's disadvantages. Anyone for a fan club?

Great game though, Mr Fussy says buy it

I always thought the after armour effect came from shell fragments and armour fragments flying towards the crew, not from the shell bouncing around in the tank. That or I completely misunderstood your post .

[goodwood]

SD if you are questioning accuracy maybe you have a right to whine a bit, but survivability I think sling shots will take out Marders if hit. I wonder if towed AT guns survive longer than them purely because of their silhouette. I don't know.

[Baneman]

While the Marder crews saved money on air fresheners and candles; the interior didn't smell nearly as bad as the diesel, feet and ass smell of an enclosed tank. However that open fresh feeling that Herman got, with long locks of blonde hair flowing in the open top was often tragically cut short. Snipers, air bursts, grenades and shell splinters made open topped crews vulnerable. I have seen in game mortar kills with rifle grenades and HMG's.

Marders are risky as are any open topped AFV. Another case of GWSS. German Weapon Superiority Syndrome.

I think he's talking more about its possible survival from an AT round at range, not all the things that infantry could kill it with close up - all but mortars aren't going to apply at 1000m ( maybe the sniper )

I tend to agree that maybe they should spot a bit better than a buttoned tank and maybe they could be a bit harder to spot if hull down.

I'm not too sure any crew are going to be sanguine about a red hot AT round going through any part of their vehicle though - at best, they're going to floor it in reverse !

[Bastables]

But the Germans themselves had issue with the open air lash ups survivability, without the pressing exposure of KV's overrunning infantry battalions and holding entire panzer divisions up the first assault guns where after the negative experiences of Panzer Jäger 1 full enclosed and armored as well as equivalent tanks.

5cm of armor was already worthless in 41 when t34 where roaming around much more so againt the better 7,5cm and 7,62 cm in Normandy.

The fact that fighting compartment was open only offer a safe exit for ap rounds if it is solid shot, which only the commonwealth used. The US and the Soviets used shells with explosive charges (like the Germans) that would be devastating even with partial penetrations, and unless the fuse was a dud, the shell would explode even in a open marder fighting compartment after passing through the armor.

[Baneman]

... The US and the Soviets used shells with explosive charges (like the Germans) that would be devastating even with partial penetrations, and unless the fuse was a dud, the shell would explode even in a open marder fighting compartment after passing through the armor.

Hmmm, didn't know that, thought all AP was solid to differing degrees of hardness.

Cheers

[Bastables]

Hmmm, didn't know that, thought all AP was solid to differing degrees of hardness.

Cheers

Which is odd, the tank corp's/Army's decision to go with solid shot. The Royal navy with the greatest experience of dealing with shooting at armoured targets went with AP shells then APC shells for anti cemented armor ( harvy/Krupp in tanks face hardened), not with AP shot (solid).

[z1812]

My experience with the Marder in this game is very much the same as it was in CMx1. They are lightly armoured and therefore quite vunerable.

I generally use them from a hull down or ambush position only and if possible in pairs. In my current game one particularly well positioned Marder has destroyed a M10 and shocked the heck out of a Sherman.

However I made a poor movement estimation with one other and it was killed by 2 shots.

[Pvt. Ryan]

Marder is German for Martyr, isn't it?

[winkelried]

You shouldn't forget, that the first Marder's were a stop gap measure dating back to 1942 to get the 75mm PaK 40 on a mobile platform. Afaik production ended at the beginning of 1944.

Only in April 1944 the production of a "real" tank destroyer of this class started with the Hetzer. For the armored divisions the Jagdpanzer IV and IV/70 were developed. Production started also at the beginning of 1944.

Similar situation with the heavy tank destroyers with the Nashorn being succeeded by the Jagdpanther. Although production of the Nashorn continued until the end of the war.

[Michael Emrys]

The deal with any lightly armored TD whether open-topped or not is for it not to hang around once it has revealed its position. When you have a target, fire off a couple of shots, then if any opposition is still alive, bug out and move to your next ambush position. Like I keep saying, these guys were NOT meant to go toe to toe with tanks and trade punches. Unless they are Jagdpanthers or something.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

You shouldn't forget, that the first Marder's were a stop gap measure dating back to 1942 to get the 75mm PaK 40 on a mobile platform.

IIRC the first were armed with captured Soviet 76.2 mm guns. At some point, those were rechambered to use German 75 mm ammunition. A little later on the 75 mm PaK 40 was used in subsequent models.

Michael

[Abrams]

IIRC the first were armed with captured Soviet 76.2 mm guns.

Michael

Correct ... and used in N. Afrika ....

[winkelried]

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/marder-marten-series.htm