The Carillon Nose (137th Infantry) - Campaign In Progress

[Rokko]

Wow! :eek:

this is like the best website ever!

much better than that other one

[De Savage]

I have used this site earlier for maps. Didnt know you can get aerial photos too. Amazing! Thanks!

[Broadsword56]

Yes, the 1947 aerial photos are important as a source because many, many hedgerows in Normandy have been removed since the 1940s to make room for more modern mechanized farming. Also, many of the old apple orchards are gone since then.

[LemuelG]

That is awesome, thank you sir.

[Heckenschütze]

Broadsword56, this site rocks! Many thanks for sharing the link!

[Broadsword56]

Good luck to LLF as he continues the Carillon map project. We'll all be excited to see it. I've given a plug for it and for this thread on my new thread, http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=99780, which gives my 4km x 4km master map a thread of its own, now that it's been uploaded to the Repository and Greenasjade site. I'll certainly keep watching here with interest.

[LongLeftFlank]

Thanks Broadsword. The major road net is now complete and I'm starting to lay out the footprints of the settlements. Screenies will follow as available.

This building from the Le Carillon settlement looks just a wee tad different than most of the buildings appearing on CMBN maps. Getting these hamlets and farmsteads looking good is what is going to absorb most of my time from here on in. Until I can persuade the wife to spend a holiday out there so I can trek around photographing various buildings, are there any French gamers willing to collaborate on that?

[LongLeftFlank]

Brief update for those interested in this project: the attached graphic summarizes the attacks of the 137th Infantry from July 11-14th between the east bank of the Vire River and the higher ground anchored by the (famous) fortified German positions around Le Carillon. It draws on multiple sources, from the Green Books through divisional, regimental and battalion histories as well as some individual accounts. In some cases these sources conflict -- the daily stop/start lines shown on the Green Book map are particularly suspect....

Crudely, the chronology starts in the northeast corner and then reads in both directions to the southwest corner.

This material will form the basis for the actions to be covered in the proposed campaign.

ERRATA: We established in another thread that the German 897th and 899th regiments were "Grenadiere" not "Panzergrenadiere". By this point, KG Kentner (Kempner?) and the former parent 266th Division no longer really existed as a formation except in name (having been consumed in the wetland fighting further north) and its remnants were attached to the 352nd Division, itself battered and hard-pressed.

[sburke]

Beautiful, I think maybe it is time to consider changing that sig line. As nice as Ramadi is, I think this may take it.

[LongLeftFlank]

Here is the rebuilt Eglise St-Martin; the original was fortified by the Germans and took a day and a half for the 1/137th to reduce with the help of TD direct fire. Take a close look at the older crypts in the foreground to get an idea of what went down here.

Here's the original after the battle

[Broadsword56]

Great historical forensic detective work there, LLF.

Makes me wish we had that particular steeple shape and height and style in CMBN -- I find the little independent country church has too small a steeple, so I use the independent church one -- which may actually be a bit too tall and pointy and grandiose. Our model lacks this "tent" shape at the top, which (from my looks at photos of the towns we're mapping) is the most common style in Basse Normandie.

[LongLeftFlank]

Well I'd settle for a village church that takes more than a dozen 105mm rounds to demolish. The cathedral tower is ugly but fit for use.

Some of the exact action locations -- e.g. The Gestapo HQ aka "Purple Heart Corner" are still conjectural at this point; there is no sign of a "chateau enclosed in 7 foot granite walls" in the immediate vicinity of La Meauffe. Also conjectural is the first German MLR -- the only "small road connecting highway 3 to the Vire Canal (River) is behind the fortified church, which doesn't fit the chronology. I stuck it in a tactically sensible place overlooking a small streambed and utilizing the dairy complex at the north end of town. However a better tactical map would be helpful.

Also, the Green Book maps show a line of departure running through the center of town, which seems odd given that the front hadn't moved since the 29th ID arrived on June 18. Seems like a long time to sit in close quarters Stalingrad-style (one side or the other -- likely the Germans who couldn't afford attrition -- would presumably have withdrawn)

The 137th regimental history isn't online but in the West Point library. I'll see if I can get a look at it one way or another.

[Broadsword56]

If you find the regimental for the 320th IR, let me know -- since it's fighting now on the adjacent map.

I thought the Gestapo "chateau" was at St Gilles (?). Maybe not.

[LongLeftFlank]

Nope, unless the accounts I have are confused (they do err in other places), St Gilles was a separate position, several hundred meters behind the church. "Chateau" could also be any fancy stone house.

Part of the difficulty is establishing for certain the exact location of La Meauffe. The period maps mark it as the area around the railway station, but as I Google the modern day streets in 3d the older structures look more like a bunch of dairy farms called le Germainerie and Fors. The modern day La Meauffe (including the town hall which I think was a distillery before) is between the church and St Gilles. Which as I think about it starts to make more sense.... For example, the regimental CO took a bullet in the face early in the attack, at 0715 and I believe it came from the church (inconsistent with a fierce fight to the east). So some revision of my map may be im order. Hmm....

[Broadsword56]

Yes, I suspect some named locations (farm buildings, hamlets) from the WWII maps are actually in slightly different or adjusted spots today, since they were rebuilt after the war.

[LongLeftFlank]

Le Carillon is also in a different location on modern maps than it was in period maps. The 1944 maps mark a location that is called Les Buteaux today

[LongLeftFlank]

So I'm still scratching my head trying to deduce whether

(1) 1/137th jumped off on its original July 11th 0600 attack from inside the town of La Meauffe (i.e. the populated area around the rail depot), advancing west well at first, but then getting hung up in front of the fortified church (Col Layng got hit there at 0715), as implied by the Green Book maps and the battle histories like this, or

(2) the 137th first had to enter La Meauffe where "every house and shop had been converted by the Germans into individual pillboxes", as described in this account, then assault the Gestapo "chateau" (in town?), and only then move west and get hung up at the church.

In order to get more evidence as to the July 11 Line of Departure, I started reviewing the records of the 119th Infantry (30th ID), the unit that the 137th relieved on July 10th. That led me to the below map, which shows pretty clearly the German MLR set up west of the town and anchored by the church, following the stream (prefab antitank ditch) through La Petite Ferme and Le Carillon. So that implies Scenario (1)

But not so fast! There's also the XIX Corps chronology, that says:

18 June: 119th Infantry Regiment occupies La Meauffe after stiff fighting but withdraws to conform to withdrawal of 175th Infantry Regiment on its left flank....

29 June: German 352nd Infantry Division makes minor penetration of XIX Corps right flank with recapture of La Meauffe.

And the 1/119 journal:

June 18.

0500 175 Inf moved out of La Meauffe before the 1st Bn relieved them. Enemey moved in and 1st Bn unable to move into this point. Skirmished all during the night. 119 began attack 0530 this morning to take this point.

1200 Col McDaniels requested that the Bn of the 119th Infantry move and occupy high ground south of La Meauffe

1845 Inf jeep blown up. La Meauffe in our hands 1840.

1945 Civilians state that Germans have mined road at 493762 reported by K Co.

2000 La Meauffe - counterattack in progress. 49537280 - house with IGs and snipes being fired on.

469775 - Enemy CP in house, Ln 1, 1940. 433763 suspected battery position fired on.

2040 Town of La Meauffe is now in our hands. Enemy is still in outskirts.

19 June. 1/119th moved to defensive positions leading north from La Meauffe.

7 July. 1st Battalion (119th IR) continuing defense of area AMY-LA MEAUFFE

10 July 1st Battalion, 119th was relieved by elements of 35th ID at 100100B

This makes it sound like the 119th retook the town on June 18th, but then withdrew both because their left (east) flank was exposed and they were under nonstop fire from the church tower and Le Carillon. For this reason, both sides seem to have kept no more than a platoon in the town itself, which is not necessarily inconsistent with that German position map above -- the Germans could want to outpost (and fortify!) it to keep the Vire river crossing just north of there under direct fire, but also being aware that the town is easily outflanked, keep their MLR west and south in the hedgerows and thick-walled church/chateau.

So on July 11th (Scenario 2) the 1/137th swept down the north road at 0600 after prep bombardment, overran the thinly manned outpost "pillboxes" in the shattered town within 30 min (I still can't place the Gestapo HQ "chateau" anywhere), and then moved on down the road until they hit the MLR at the church, losing the Regimental CO and several other senior officers at 0715 when they came forward to see what was holding things up. Maybe.

Still pondering -- there is strong documentary evidence to support both scenarios. To break the logjam I'm going to try to get the 137th regimental history from the USMA (West Point) via interlibrary loan.

What, you mean you aren't doing this insanely obsessive degree of research into your maps and scenarios?

[LongLeftFlank]

The 119th journal has some interesting transcripts of conversations among the commanders:

Telephone conversation between Maj Gen Hobbs (30th ID) and Col Ednie (119th Regiment), 18 June, 2215

H. How is the situation down at La Meauffe?

E. That reported counterattack fizzled out as soon as the artillery commenced firing and things are just the way they were. They are pushing ahead and are trying to take that area south of the church.

H. You have only snipers in there?

E. Yes. They got two prisoners, one a Pole who said that they had 150 men in there.

H. At the present time you do or do not have the town?

E. Not all of it. Col Cantey says he will have it before dark. I am at the CP now. I just came back from there.

H. You see a railroad crossing with the red road just slightly southwest of la Meauffe?* That is high ground there. Are you getting any fire from that place?

E. The fire that pinned them down was across the river.

H. YOu have got to take advantage of that terrain. Tomorrow before noon that place must be thoroughly cleaned out.

E. A later report state that an 88mm gun fired 4 rounds at them from the town below the church.*

H. That is almost point-blank range. You better get artillery on it.

E. We did, but Cantey stopped it.

H. Have you communications with him?

E. Only through the old CP and from there by radio.

H. You better get busy on that. With all the strength you have you should be able to take it. THey must have a few hedgerow people shooting at them. It will be dark in about an hour. Let me have the latest report on that thing as soon as you get it. Tomorrow that place must be cleaned out with everything you have got. In addition, in order to protect that we should push sufficiently down to get that high ground with the railroad intersection at the road there. We want to clean out the town* and swing to that objective there.

E. That is the objective I gave them.

H. We want it before noon tomorrow. If you need any more help from the battalion, you let me know and we will use more and perhaps part of the division reserve.

E. We will take it and have it by noon tomorrow.

H. Go to it then. I know you can do it.

* St Gilles. The 2 AT gun positions, one covering the road and the other the railbed are clearly marked on the German map above.

Telephone conversation between Maj Gen Corlett (XIX Corps) and Maj Gen Hobbs (30th Div), 19 June, 0810

H. The first battalion of the 119th had trouble around Meauffe. There is nothing cleaned up in the gap there.

C. How many have you got?

H. You can get anywhere from 40, 60, to 70 men. They are pinning the battalion down from the hedgerows, snipers.

C. Anything we do should be on a narrow front. I don't know if we can spare two regiments on that front.

H. That is another point there. To get this thing sensibly set up we must give them time to get ready for it.

C. How are casualties in the 119th?

H. Two officers and seven enlisted men last night. This area is not cleaned up right now and we have to hinge on that.

Reinforcing the earlier impression that for both sides La Meauffe was easier to take than to hold. Here too is a memoir for a 2/137th Infantry medic, Dr Leroy Malleck:

The next afternoon found our regiment marching forward to relieve elements of the 119th Infantry Regiment of the 30th division in the vicinity of La Meauffe, north of St Lo.... They had been in this location for the last two weeks. Those weeks of preparation had improved their foxholes to the acme of doughboy refinement. They were covered with logs and earth and were lined with corrugated board from their ration cartons.

The bedraggled infantrymen of the 119th were deliriously happy to see fresh troops arrive. They had suffered heavy casualties and had been under continuous shellfire for over two weeks. The men were dirty and jittery and told us horror stories that caused a slump in morale. They showed us the various booby traps, mines and trip wires in the trees the Germans had installed in the area and the places to avoid....

The men of the 137th now learned what it was to be shelled.... The importance of overhead cover as protection against the deadly tree bursts became apparent.

[LongLeftFlank]

For those of you reading this thread, have you noticed btw how "robotic" the US forces are, at least at this stage. They don't advance an inch, it seems, unless their Commanding General is breathing down their neck. The closer to the sharp end they are, the more hesitant or tentative they sound (with exceptions, who tend to die fast). Contrast this with the vastly understrength Germans -- counterattacking, harassing at every opportunity. This refers back to my "Are Germans Better?" thread which I recently renewed on the main board.

The doggies showed better initiative and skill on defense, of course, as Lehr and Reich found to their cost across the Vire around that same time. And perhaps that's all it is -- when you're attacking you have a lot to lose by being aggressive -- safer to go to ground and wait for the arty to do the work. On defense and the chips are down you perceive that it's do or die and revise your risk calculation accordingly.

So the German advantage seems to be that they gear the group for flexibility and initiative on the attack. Not that they're somehow braver or better shots or more fanatical as individuals -- the expectation is just there and everyone "owns" it. Quite profound.

[Broadsword56]

Yes it's ironic that the army of a fascist dictatorship actually stressed "freedom" (militarily speaking) and initiative on the battlefield, while the U.S. democracy's army opposing it acted more like robots with top-down control. British officers often remarked on the way US commanders tended to shelter safely in the rear like 18th Century aristocrats, instead of being with their troops -- something the Brits said they learned not to do after WW I.

[LongLeftFlank]

Which is why British junior officers died like flies relative to the ranks in both wars, in part courtesy of German sniper skills. As did those American officers who indeed "led from the front" or felt compelled to come forward to get things moving.

I'd also take that British criticism with a huge grain of salt.

[Broadsword56]

Agreed -- sounds a lot like the kind of Anglo-American sniping and backbiting among commanders that was rampant during the war.

[Broadsword56]

Where in the world did you find those maps (the captured German diagram and the heavy weapons support one)? If it just showed a little more of the area east of Le Mesnil-Rouxelin, it would cover some of the area I've mapped. Is there anything of the adjacent area that you know of?

[LongLeftFlank]

Google "Old Hickory" and 30th Infantry. The site is amateurish (1990s vintage) but has collected and scanned a huge quantity of historical documents. From veterans or families mostly, by the look of it. Guess a lot more of them were alive back then and starting to open up about their experiences.

[Sublime]

LLF I've been extremely impressed with your info and knowledge on this thread. if theres any help I can offer with your campaign pls lemme know