AI use of anti-tank teams gamey?

[easytarget]

I've run into a couple instances in the last couple days where I've lost tanks to the AI because it was willing to commit them to attacking a tank by crossing an open field that exposed the AT team to a withering cross-fire of my tank infantry support teams

Somehow the AT teams managed in spite of the hail storm of fire coming at them to pop up long enough to get off a lucky shot and take my tanks out on two different occasions

this raised the question in my mind as to whether it would be considered gamey for a human opponent in an PBEM or IP game to engage his AT teams in such a fashion and if in WW2 this sort of behavior was exhibited by AT teams?

i realize this was for the greater good of the troop, but i find it rather hard to believe there were many troops in the field on either side willing to commit certain suicide to take out a tank

in both instances the AT teams came from the woods into the open to get the shot off because otherwise they were too far away

and in both instances they were dead shortly after they managed to get off the shot

any opinions?

[ December 25, 2002, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: easytarget ]

[easytarget]

guess i'll take the lack of response as utter indifference to this particular topic

[KG ThorsHammer]

You are probably right,,the only thing I could suggest would be to keep infantry or a light vehicle right with the tanks, so when the AI tries it again, they will be gunned down at close range

[Silvio Manuel]

If a human sucessfully did this to you, you should be ashamed that you weren't able to suppress a wimpy 2-man team out in the open.

[easytarget]

hehe, i'm annoyed enough as it is that the AI did it to me on two different occasions on successive nights

i still think it's a bit cheesy since in both instances it happened to me i had 3 rifle platoons and an mg42 firing on the AT team at less than 30m - yet the guy didn't get suppressed and managed to get a shot off that killed my tank

always a little annoying to use the right tactics (i.e. use support infantry with the tank to avoid this very sort of thing) and still die

such is war - but again, i still find it impossible to believe that in real life an AT team would of even thought about jumping out in the open to shoot at the tank knowing they would most certainly die

[Bertram]

First it is a problem of CMBO that infantry is not suppressed enough for the amount of fire they receive. This goes for AT teams, but also for infantry storming MG's. In CMBB this is changed (though AT teams are more difficult to spot there, making ambushes much more usefull). You'll have to live with it, only positive is that you can do the same to your opponent .

As for real live: most people where of course more carefull, but there were execeptions. At Arnhem for example a VC (Victoria Cross)(if I remember right, someone has the link for the VC pages?) was awarded for a soldier taking out 6 AFV's. The last he took out after running into the street, to get a better shot. The decoration was posthumous.

Bertram

[Silvio Manuel]

Bertram,

You are absolutely right about how tough it is to suppress inf. AT teams in CMBO. I recently played a night battle where I had to exit many vehicles after traveling ~1200m up a *heavily* forested road... in the dark... OUCH. Big big OUCH. Even more so if the defending/hidden Zooks are under Morale and /or Combat bonus HQs.

[SgtMuhammed]

During the Battle of the Bulge an American private grabbed a Bazooka and ran out into the street to engage a Panther. The round hit under the mantlet and penetrated the drivers compartment destroying the tank. Best of all the kid survived. Once you decided something must be done you kind of get the attitude that you are already dead so you might as well make a difference.

[Splinty]

Originally posted by Sgtgoody:

During the Battle of the Bulge an American private grabbed a Bazooka and ran out into the street to engage a Panther. The round hit under the mantlet and penetrated the drivers compartment destroying the tank. Best of all the kid survived. Once you decided something must be done you kind of get the attitude that you are already dead so you might as well make a difference.

My thoughts exactly! Never underestimate the will or courage of a man who figures he has nothing to lose.

[Agua]

The more "gamey" trick (and if I don't tell you, you'll run into it eventually), is when someone runs an AT team out into the open, with no nope of it actually sucessfully eliminating your tank, for the sake of triggering the CMBO borg spotting AT team fixation (once any unit spots the AT team, all units within LOS fire upon it). While your tank is busy plugging away at the AT team (which is already being fired upon by a half dozen other units), the opponent rolls a tank out from a direction far from the AT team so as to engage your tank while it has it's turret turned. This is not to say that sending a lone AT team out in desparation is gamey: you'll know the "gamey" application when you see it. Resist the temptation, though; a bad reputation travels quickly, and quietly, among players.

[Quenaelin]

In CMBB soldiers are just treated like tired wimpy covard bastards and there is no heroic acts like in CMBO, this is one thing why I like CMBO little bit more, that AT-team was just lucky to get no hits from your fire and seized your tank attack, they just acted as real AT-soldiers should always act in the battle field.

[Cortes]

I think you guys aren't factoring in the common belief of luck. My great grandfather charged a StuG in the last months of the war and took it out, exposing himself to an enemy platoon's MG and sniper fire. He knocked out the tank and made it back to cover.

And he lived till he was 87, I think. It's entirely possible to survive a headlong charge. Just don't do it, because it's entirely propable you won't.

Pardon the war story regaling. Just felt it was applicable.

[landser]

In the book "Curahee" by Donald Burgett? he describes several actions by his Airborne buddies on D-Day that leave you shaking your head. Crazy? Fearless? It's a blurred line.

In one instance he recounts a trooper that decided to mount a horse (a Russian cavalry horse no less!), and with six-guns blazing, charged a bulding containing a German machine gun. Twice he rode all the way to the building, while bursts from the MG snapped around him. Each time he turned and came back to the spot where the other troopers were watching, claiming that those damned fool Germans couldn't shoot straight. He charged once more, with less luck than before. Was this bravery? Courage? Foolishness? Bloodlust? Arrogance?

Point is, it's impossible to say that a soldier would not do something simply because there's little chance of him coming out on the other end in one piece.

[Cybeq]

I too, have noticed this AT team phenomenon in CMBO. But these kind of John Wayne tactics only seem to work for the AI. Whenever I try it my AT team dies before getting a shot. And if they do get a shot they will miss.

[Jack Carr]

Not only do I agree with the original poster on this issue but will go further by saying that I have lost heavy tanks to bazooka teams, that in my mind, were way too far away to get off an accurate shot. Even if the bazooka team did hit, the chance of penetrating the heavy tanks armor, seemed to me, was slim to none. In any case I have often lost Panther and Tiger tanks to accurate long range bazooka fire. What can you do except play on. Any thoughts on the accuracy, chance to hit, and effectiveness of a bazooka or PIAT team?

[Silvio Manuel]

Long range IAT fire is very chancy, unless you have Vet+ teams and/or they are commanded by Combat bonus HQs, which improve accuracy.

Distance does NOT affect the penetration power of any shell that is "Hollow-charge" (designated a "c" round in CM) such as ALL of the IAT shells. They rely on a shaped charge that fires on contact w/ the target, and instead of punching thru w/ kinetic energy like normal AP shot, the Hollow-charge rounds MELT thru armor using a jet of plasma created by the shaped charge.

Howitzer tanks like the 95mm Cromwell, 105mm Sherman, and StuH 105mm use "c" rounds since Howitzers always fire at a slower muzzle velocity (and more arced trajectory) than guns designed for AT-use. Since the kinetic energy will be lower, they use Shaped/Hollow-charge ammo to allow the melting ability to make up for the lack of M.V. by the time the shell hits the target.

[ZOR58]

In a game I'm playing tonight my US Bazooka team was in a building that was fired on by a Panther. The building caught on fire,the AT team became shaken and I guess pissed off because they ran out in the street and chased the Panther for 2 blocks before knocking it out on their 4th shot(the first 3 all bounced off)all the time under fire from the Panther and a MG in a wood bunker.

They then turned around and took out the bunker.

Right now they are out of ammo but nothing around them is left alive and my infantry are taking a casual stroll to the victory locations.

Guess I can no longer complain about how AT Teams work for the AI.

[sand digger]

Does having the infantry out in front of your armour make any difference? There is also the point that perhaps you should be pushing recce forward to check out likely lurking places for AT, man portable or not.

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by ZOR58:

In a game I'm playing tonight my US Bazooka team was in a building that was fired on by a Panther. The building caught on fire,the AT team became shaken and I guess pissed off because they ran out in the street and chased the Panther for 2 blocks before knocking it out on their 4th shot(the first 3 all bounced off)all the time under fire from the Panther and a MG in a wood bunker.

They then turned around and took out the bunker.

Right now they are out of ammo but nothing around them is left alive and my infantry are taking a casual stroll to the victory locations.

Guess I can no longer complain about how AT Teams work for the AI.

Great Googly Moogly!! I guess you have nothing to complain about! That's a Medal of Honor story if I ever heard one.

One of the things I love about CM is the way it so nicely models the way luck can play a really big role in tactical combat. In your case, one lucky zook team made your day. I can only hope to have your luck in my next battle!!

Cheers,

YD

[Jack Carr]

Originally posted by ZOR58:

In a game I'm playing tonight my US Bazooka team was in a building that was fired on by a Panther. The building caught on fire,the AT team became shaken and I guess pissed off because they ran out in the street and chased the Panther for 2 blocks before knocking it out on their 4th shot(the first 3 all bounced off)all the time under fire from the Panther and a MG in a wood bunker.

They then turned around and took out the bunker.

Right now they are out of ammo but nothing around them is left alive and my infantry are taking a casual stroll to the victory locations.

Guess I can no longer complain about how AT Teams work for the AI.

--------------------------------------------------

All you have to do is read this post and you'll understand that something is wrong with the game engine. Sounds like Audie Murphy was in that bazooka team. This type of thing should never happen. Can you just imagine this in real life? Two guys with a bazooka chasing around a 48 ton tank armed with a 75mm main gun with HE rounds and two fast firing MG's. The tank realizes that it is being pursued and begins to attack the pursuer! In the meantime enemy infantry and an enemy MG bunker starts raining a hail of gunfire on the two men and they come out unharmed having knocked out the enemy heavy tank and an enemy pillbox! Seem unbelievable? It is!

All I can say is this would never have happened in CMBB. BTS PLEASE PUT THE CMBB ENGINE IN CMBO AND RE-RELEASE. I'll buy it if it happens.

[Darryl60]

You don't read much history do you?

Things like that DID happen in r/l...they were rare and memorable events when they did occur.

And they are rare and memorable events in the CM series as well.

Only thing I had that was close to that was when an elite PzIVG I had went nuts after it's commander was knocked out. Ended up taking out over 100 infantry plus 6 tanks and assorted armoured vehicles...and that was after the commander took a bullet.

I know that in CMBB there is a chance for a unit to become "fanatical"(I think that's what they call it)...I don't remember if that is also in CMBO...but that's what sounds like may have happened with that AT unit.

Darryl

[Splinty]

Yup,units in CMBO can go fanatical as well.