Area fire question

[jonp]

If one is getting ready to assault a building, can I get units to fire upon the building and assault it and the firing units will stop when my units get close?

I thought I read that is how it works but it didn't seem to be that way when I was playing the demo the other day

Thx

jonpfl

[freeeman]

well that would be nice, and I am no expert but I had forgotten recently and watched as a HQ units fired relentlessly suppressing some of their own troops which where assaulting a building..

so from experience plan on micro managing this aspect

[Sgt Joch]

no you cant, you have to order it to cease firing, easy to do in RT.

In playing WEGO, you can area fire one turn and assault the next. If you want to get fancy, you could order your unit providing covering fire to area target for, say, 20 seconds and give your maneuver unit a pause command for the same 20 seconds, so it will start to move as soon as the firing stops.

[Ranger33]

I thought that there was an update to CMSF at one point that addressed this, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

One time in CMSF I had a team targeting a building and then moved them into it without canceling the target order. When they got there it turned into the 4th of July, I'm not sure if they were shooting at the floor or in random directions, but they put on quite a show. There were grenades and tracers and rockets flying all over that room they were in.

[akd]

I believe a unit will cancel its own targeting order if it enters the targeted floor. You are responsible for lifting the fire of other units.

[A Canadian Cat]

<snip>If you want to get fancy, you could order your unit providing covering fire to area target for, say, 20 seconds and give your maneuver unit a pause command for the same 20 seconds, so it will start to move as soon as the firing stops.

I would love to get fancy:). I know how to get the moving squads to pause and wait for 20s. But how do I set the guys doing the covering fire to only fire for the first 20s of a turn?

Ian

[A Canadian Cat]

well that would be nice, and I am no expert but I had forgotten recently and watched as a HQ units fired relentlessly suppressing some of their own troops which where assaulting a building..

so from experience plan on micro managing this aspect

Yep I did the same thing with an HMG crew - oops.

[YankeeDog]

I would love to get fancy:). I know how to get the moving squads to pause and wait for 20s. But how do I set the guys doing the covering fire to only fire for the first 20s of a turn?

Ian

Give them an area target order from their current position for the covering fire. Then give them a pause order for 20 sec. Then give them a small movement order. Make sure to select the new waypoint, and give them a "clear target" order (or even a new target order, if you want them to shift fire). The unit will stay where they are, firing at the area target for 20 seconds, then get up, move, and stop firing once they've reached their new location.

[Lanzfeld]

I would love to get fancy:). I know how to get the moving squads to pause and wait for 20s. But how do I set the guys doing the covering fire to only fire for the first 20s of a turn?

Ian

Easy...

1. Give them area fire order and a 20 second pause.

2. Give them a quick or fast move to THE SAME ACTION SPOT THEY ALREADY OCCUPY.

3. From the new fast or quick "ball" order a face command (this will stop the shooting).

4. Enjoy.

[Sgt Joch]

I would love to get fancy:). I know how to get the moving squads to pause and wait for 20s. But how do I set the guys doing the covering fire to only fire for the first 20s of a turn?

Ian

Bear with me because I have not done this in a while so I may be remembering wrong for #2, but:

1. for the moving guys, you give them their movement orders, click on the starting waypoint and increment the "pause" order until "pause 20 seconds" appears over the 1st waypoint. Then they will wait 20 sec. at the start of the turn before moving;

2. for the covering unit, give it an "area target" order and then an order to face slightly away from the current position. Click again on pause and increment for 20 seconds. They should fire for 20 secs and then cease fire as they execute the change in facing.

Someone should check with the demo. If #2 does not work, there is another way of doing by giving the covering unit a movement waypoint, i.e. area target + quick move one action spot over + pause order 20 seconds on 1st waypoint.

edit - I see others beat me to a reply.

[A Canadian Cat]

Excellent thanks to all those that posted how to cease firing. All I can say is I need a better imagination:). Now that you spell it out its obvious that I already knew how to do it for the advancing guys - and it is just the same for the stationary guys. I was just not able to make the leap to give the stationary guys a move order. Sounds like a face order can be used too. I'll experiment - thanks for what will be a very useful technique.

Ian

[jonp]

Give them an area target order from their current position for the covering fire. Then give them a pause order for 20 sec. Then give them a small movement order. Make sure to select the new waypoint, and give them a "clear target" order (or even a new target order, if you want them to shift fire). The unit will stay where they are, firing at the area target for 20 seconds, then get up, move, and stop firing once they've reached their new location.

So you are telling me that if you issue a 'target' order and then hit pause for 20 secs and then some other order (ie move, new target, etc), the unit will target for 20 secs and then do the other command?

Never knew this, thx!

jonpfl

[GhostRider3/3]

If one is getting ready to assault a building, can I get units to fire upon the building and assault it and the firing units will stop when my units get close?

I thought I read that is how it works but it didn't seem to be that way when I was playing the demo the other day

Thx

jonpfl

Well not a good idea if your playing in wego mode. I had a Sherman firing "Light" on a building to suppress the occupants. Well needless to say in 1 minute I lost an entire squad of men... due to the .50 cal and .30 cal ripping them apart as they tried to assault the same "Front" entry.

I beleive if you are using wego, look for an alternative entry point, however the bullets will still be ripping through the building so suggestion as already stated would be to suppress the building...usually will rattle the occupants or more, and then Assault it without the suppressive fire.

Yikes.. or forget everything I just said. Aparrently from YankeeDog the units are alot more capable now at multitasking.

Cheers

[YankeeDog]

So you are telling me that if you issue a 'target' order and then hit pause for 20 secs and then some other order (ie move, new target, etc), the unit will target for 20 secs and then do the other command?

Never knew this, thx!

jonpfl

Yes; exactly.

[Lanzfeld]

No, not exactly at all.

You must do a MOVE of some sort after the pause and then from the new move "Ball" you issue the new facing/fire command.

Keep in mind the move command can be to the very action spot you currently occupy.

[YankeeDog]

Whups; yeah; what he said. Didn't notice the jonp included "new target" in the "some other order" category. The "some other order" has to be some sort of movement order, and you have to cancel the Area target at the waypoint that ends that move order (with a Face, new Target, or Cover Arc order).

[jonp]

Whups; yeah; what he said. Didn't notice the jonp included "new target" in the "some other order" category. The "some other order" has to be some sort of movement order, and you have to cancel the Area target at the waypoint that ends that move order (with a Face, new Target, or Cover Arc order).

Awesome, this is great to know

Thx

jonpfl

[GSX]

I thought there was o friendly fire from small arms or target light? Has this changed from CMSF?

[Vanir Ausf B]

I thought there was o friendly fire from small arms or target light? Has this changed from CMSF?

I think .50 MG are not considered small arms for purposes of FF. So if you are targeting light with a Sherman tank near friendlies you need to button the commander so he can't fire the AAMG.

[c3k]

If you're using infantry with high explosive weapons (schrecks, rifle grenades) the TARGET order will use them. They will cause friendly fire casualties. If you use TARGET LIGHT they will not use the HE weapons, only small arms. The game assumes covering small arms fire is aimed away from your own troops, so no friendly fire casualties. All this is IIRC.

Ken

[Broadsword56]

With all the posts and replies to the question, I'm more confused than ever. Could some one "take it from the top" and post the correct exact sequence to cease covering fire by a fire group and time it with an immediate assault by an assault group?

[YankeeDog]

With all the posts and replies to the question, I'm more confused than ever. Could some one "take it from the top" and post the correct exact sequence to cease covering fire by a fire group and time it with an immediate assault by an assault group?

1. Plot movement of Assault team onto the objective. If possible, try to create an approach vector separated from the covering fire vector. 90 degree separation is ideal, but 45 degrees or so is still good. I prefer to use the QUICK order for the Assault team, and also give the assault team a TARGET LIGHT order onto the action spot that is their objective. If you do this, they will fire a few rounds at the objective on their way in. They will stop executing this target order as soon as they hit the objective.

2. Plot a TARGET LIGHT order for the covering fire group. Note I'm using only TARGET LIGHT orders here; on TARGET, a unit may use HE specials like rifle grenades; these HE weapons are "agnostic" and can definitely cause friendly casualties (going off of how things work in CMSF here).

3. Guesstimate how long it will take the assault group to reach the objective. Give the covering fire group a PAUSE order for a little bit less than this amount of time. So you think the assault time will take about 30 seconds to reach the objective, maybe make the PAUSE order for about 20 seconds.

4. Now, issue the Cover Group a Movement command. You can make this movement order onto the action spot the team is already occupying if you don't really want them to go anywhere. Any movement will do, but FAST is often best because it will be completed the quickest, and teams executing FAST orders put priority on moving, and not firing at enemy units.

5. Select the new waypoint you just created for the Cover group. Issue a FACE or COVER ARC order (or even another TARGET/TARGET LIGHT order if you want them to start shooting somewhere else) from this waypoint. This will cancel the previous TARGET LIGHT order you plotted for this group.

There are variations. For example, you can pause the Assault team, to give more time for covering fire to get the enemy's heads down. You can also give either team additional waypoints, and at each new waypoint, you can issue a new target order. This will let you shift fire around. For example, you could tell the Assault team to area fire into a building as it entered, and then start firing into the building next door, once they had achieved entry into the first building.

[womble]

With all the posts and replies to the question, I'm more confused than ever. Could some one "take it from the top" and post the correct exact sequence to cease covering fire by a fire group and time it with an immediate assault by an assault group?

What I'm using at the moment

Covering element

1. hit pause until it's about when you think your assault group will be within a couple of action spaces
   
2. make them move, as quickly as possible, for as short a distance as possible (Quick, one action space is enough for infantry; vehicles sometimes keep firing while moving, so you want to use Fast and make the move as short as possible)
   
3. At the waypoint for this snap move issue a different fire command (IME, shutting them down completely with a minimal range Cover Arc is often necessary, else the AI may attempt to 'help', with 'hilarious' consequences )
   
4. You can issue more waypoints if you want afterwards
   

Assaulting element

Much easier. You just have to judge their movement so the covering element is coordinated with them. Their own small arms and grenades won't hurt or suppress them.

Things I think affect your timings, spacings and general planning

• friendly small arms smaller than 12.5mm will not cause casualties
  
• friendly small arms fire will cause suppression. If there is 'bullet spatter' near (in their action spot, or adjacent for a lesser effect) a unit, they will suffer suppression, even if it's fluttering leaves or hedgerow trimming by a supporting unit.
  
• friendly HE is murderous. Until I started exercising strict control over my Shermans in Busting the Bocage, I was losing more men to friendly fire than to the enemy, by a factor of 3. 75mm Sherman HE has a killing burst radius on advancing troops of at least 20m.
  

I've not finished with BtB yet, but I'm doing a lot of retrys to find out what works and what doesn't. Made the German FDL with 2 casualties, once I got a handle on my own HE use, and that's with incompetent smokidj and badly located spotters so arty hasn't been the influence it should've been... Really, don't fire 'over' hedges with Shermans unless you're directly up against the feature. The bow machine gun isn't going 'over', it's scaring the patooties off (pinning, rattling) your dogfaces that are hunkered down trying to suppress the shrecks in the next hedge row so the ronsons can come up and add their weight of fire to get enough suppression to advance. And those .50cals mean you're better to have the tanks buttoned up...

[Vanir Ausf B]

Great post! One minor typo:

4. Now, issue the Assault Group a Movement command.

That should be the covering fire group.

[YankeeDog]

@ Vanir Ausf B.

Whups! Good catch. Fixed. Thanks.