US 60mm mortars effectiveness

[Thin Red Line]

Compared to CMx1, where light mortars were useful to pin down an ennemy unit, but caused light if any casualties, it seems that the american 60mm mortars are now deadly.

I lost an entire group in a couple of minutes to mortars (handled by the AI !).

When under mortar fire, units get pinned quickly, unable to react to orders, and start to take one after one casualties until all the group get hit.

Is it just me or have the light mortars been changed into one of the most dreadful asset on the battlefield ?

[LemoN]

Just as they should be.

Mortars were one of the prime killers in WW2, accounting for something along the lines of 70% of allied casualties in Normandy.

[Polo]

Lemon,

You may be right about mortars (in general), but 120mm and 81mm were probably far more potent.

Anyway the German didn't have any 60mm mortar, so I guess your stat is no answer, as Thin Red Line was speaking about the 60.

Anybody with significant historical information about casulaties from 60mm and casulaties stats in general?

Polo

[Pandur]

maybe have a look into the "On-Map Mortars = Superunit!?" thread, must be at page two.

[gunnergoz]

FWIW a post from this forum:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=46534&highlight=causes+battle+casualties

says this:

The cause of wounds suffered by soldiers varied widely depending on specific circumstances. A British Corps reported 42.8% wounds caused by bullets during the El Alamein offensive. However the percentage of battle wounds to british soldiers by weapon 1939-45 overall was:

Mortar, grenade, bomb, shell ...........75%

Bullet, AT mine................................10%

mine & booby trap...........................10%

Blast and crush.................................2%

Chemical..........................................2%

other................................................1%

from J Ellis WWII Databook table 57 p257

No details are given as to what blast, crush or chemical "attacks" caused casualties.

[BloodyBucket]

Willie and Joe seemed to think highly of them.

[Wengart]

I lost an entire group in a couple of minutes to mortars (handled by the AI !).

The 60mm mortar isn't very lethal when firing using an area target fire mission and isn't too lethal with linear, although its better.

However, the point target makes it absolutely lethal to whatever happens to be at that point since you will end up with 10-20 rounds falling in quick succession in a single area. This is the fire type the AI will use with the 60mm.

[Praetori]

I'm starting to get seriously worried. (spoiler following)

In the DEMO mission "Closing the pocket" I first played as the US and stopped the Germans dead in their tracks with the mortars playing a crucial role.

I then tried playing as the Germans and ended up flanking the US positions from the crossroads. As soon as I pinpointed the US mortars I put multiple arty, 4x MGs (2x42s), squad fire and one AC hammering their position. It ended up with the mortars killing EVERY squad and MG who were firing upon them.

Ok tough luck I though and played again, this time when I found them I put all the arty I had on top of them, 2x rifle squads and one AC with a clear line of fire. The US mortars ended up killing first the ZugCo, shifted fire and killed the CompanyCO hidden in behind the treeline, then shifted again and damaged one of the ACs before moving on and decimated my squads trying to suppress them.

[LemoN]

Honestly, I've never had any problems with the US mortars on that map. I actually found them quite exposed and easy to kill since they're limited to a very tight space.

A wide spread of 105's on the town with one 81mm mortar providing smoke and one 81mm mortar suppressing the left flank did the job quite well for me.

[Praetori]

Honestly, I've never had any problems with the US mortars on that map. I actually found them quite exposed and easy to kill since they're limited to a very tight space.

A wide spread of 105's on the town with one 81mm mortar providing smoke and one 81mm mortar suppressing the left flank did the job quite well for me.

Adapting and killing them weren't my main concern. Just avoiding their LOS when you've found them and trickle away with counter arty works well enough. My main issue is the effectiveness of the mortars in a direct fire role.

The accuracy seems pretty ok but how a mortar round can kill multiple prone soldiers snuggled up behind cover, stay un-suppressed and even re-acquire new targets within seconds even 90-100 degrees from their setup positions bugs me.

As it stands now even a MG seems to have a very low chance to defeat mortar crew even if the MG opens up first with a decent line of fire. The mortar simply rotates and then obliterates the aggressor.

[Childress]

FWIW a post from this forum:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=46534&highlight=causes+battle+casualties

says this:

These stats reflect, imo, continuous shelling along a front over time, not a hot engagement where, one guesses, the bullet lethality percentage goes up and the mortar, mine and shell percentgage declines.

[Guest]

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=96571&page=3

Some actual mortarmen weigh in. Consensus seems to be that direct fire from mortars can be very accurate.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Although the post by Krilly quoting Ian Hogg suggests that the accuracy of WW2-era mortars was significantly lower that modern versions.

[Tactical Wargamer]

FWIW a post from this forum:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=46534&highlight=causes+battle+casualties

says this:

Staring at my copy above my computer. Mr. John Ellis (WWII Data book) book is a must have for all wargamers IMHO.

[gunnergoz]

Here's some WW2 data from the US Army Office of Medical History:

link:

http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/woundblstcs/chapter1.htm

CAUSATIVE AGENTS OF BATTLE CASUALTIES IN WORLD WAR II

In order to determine which type of enemy weapon was most effective against U.S. troops in World War II, it would be necessary to know the causative agent for each wound inflicted. Not only was such information impossible to get for all areas for the entire war period but what was available was often inaccurate. Casualties who survived were frequently not able to determine the weapons that had wounded them. For those killed outright or who died of wounds, no opinion was available if there had been no witnesses. Prompt interment of bodies seldom left time for recovery of the missile that killed. Casualty surveys which supplied this type of information were made only in certain areas at specified times. However, these studies used different methods of reporting, and the lack of a uniform system made assessment and comparison of reports difficult.

Nevertheless, many interesting facts can be brought out from the material available. A report on the causative agents of battle casualties in World War II showed the comparative incidence of casualties from different types of weapons for several theaters. Compilers of the report believed that, while the more detailed subdivisions within their three major classes were open to question, their findings on the percent of total casualties due to small arms, artillery and mortars, and "miscellaneous" were reasonably accurate. From these they drew the following conclusions:

1. Small arms fire accounted for between 14 and 31 percent of the total casualties, depending upon the theater of action: The Mediterranean theater, 14.0 percent; the European theater, 23.4 percent; and the Pacific theaters, 30.7 percent.

2. Artillery and mortar fire together accounted for 65 percent of the total casualties in the European and Mediterranean theaters, 64.0 and 69.1, respectively. In the Pacific, they accounted for 47.0 percent.

The report showed the relative effectiveness of causative agents, which inflicted casualties on 217,070 living wounded of the First and Third U.S. Armies, European Theater of Operations, 1944-45 (table 14).

It is also interesting to note from two tables taken from studies conducted on Bougainville and in Italy that more casualties in the South Pacific were caused by rifle or machinegun fire than in the North African theater:

----------

(there follows a table at that link which I could not get to format correctly so you will have to see for yourself by clicking on the link)

[Mike Victor]

Staring at my copy above my computer. Mr. John Ellis (WWII Data book) book is a must have for all wargamers IMHO.

I've been looking for a book like that. Thanks for the tip; just found a copy on ebay for $2.99

[StrykerPSG]

Although the post by Krilly quoting Ian Hogg suggests that the accuracy of WW2-era mortars was significantly lower that modern versions.

The accuracy in a direct fire/ direct lay mode wouldn't change much from WWII to now. It's a very simple process where the gunner aligns the sight perfectly with the cannon and estimates the range from him to the target. That principle hasn't changed since the inception of the mortar and accuracy would only change now a days if using a GPS to plot your exact spot on the map, though not necesary and a rangefinder to know your targets range. Bottom line is as long as the gunner or crew are highly efficient at range estimation, and most company mortarmen are, then direct lay would be highly lethal to the recipients. Factor in the multi-option fuses of then and now, with delay(.8 seconds), impact, Near Surface Burst (0-3 meters) and Proximity (3-8 meters) and you've got a recipe for multiple casualties/fatalities. Please note that multi-option fuzes have been around for quite some time, just much more reliable now and safer for the crew.

So, company/platoon level mortars were game changers when coordinated properly and have found that their usual in-effectiveness is more based on the commander's lack of experience or ignorance of it's capabilites. I spent most of my time in BN/BDE Orders always interjecting my capabilites to both the company commander and BN/BDE commander, ie squeaky wheel getting the grease. I also took every opportunity to invite the CO/BN/BDE leadership to all of our mortar shoots, which became even more fun in the Stryker BDE's with each vehicle squad having two mortar systems per vehicle. Anyway, off my soapbox.

[akd]

The older "tear drop" shape of mortar rounds would have caused increased dispersion in comparison to the modern, streamlined design, probably more so at longer ranges, but dispersion is not synonymous with accuracy.

[Michael Emrys]

Factor in the multi-option fuses of then and now, with delay(.8 seconds), impact, Near Surface Burst (0-3 meters) and Proximity (3-8 meters) and you've got a recipe for multiple casualties/fatalities. Please note that multi-option fuzes have been around for quite some time...

I'll take your word for that, but I think contact fuses are all that was available during WW II.

Michael

[StrykerPSG]

I'll take your word for that, but I think contact fuses are all that was available during WW II.

Michael

Contact and delay were standard fare from WWI until now. Multi-option were later available during WWII but were usually additional fuzes that had to be mounted as an additional exercise, so not always available from the ammo guys. Luckily US/NATO mortars and artillery now have these options built into one fuse and with more reliable safeties built into them, preventing premature detonation.

It was also the Germans that routinely used the delay option when troops were hunkered into treelines and used not only the rounds shrpanel, but the massive amounts of wood splinters to their advantage as well.

[akd]

US artillery had time fuzes, and towards the very end of the war, proximity fuzes, but US 60mm and 81mm HE mortar rounds only had point-detonating super-quick fuzes with one exception: the 81mm M56 "HE-Heavy" demolition round had a point-detonating delay fuze.

[gunnergoz]

Contact and delay were standard fare from WWI until now. Multi-option were later available during WWII but were usually additional fuzes that had to be mounted as an additional exercise, so not always available from the ammo guys. Luckily US/NATO mortars and artillery now have these options built into one fuse and with more reliable safeties built into them, preventing premature detonation.

It was also the Germans that routinely used the delay option when troops were hunkered into treelines and used not only the rounds shrpanel, but the massive amounts of wood splinters to their advantage as well.

Actually, I have to side with Michael on this...I know delay fuzes were standard fare on artillery other than mortars, but US WW2 60 and 81mm mortars used the M52 PD fuze which was impact detonation only. I am not aware of any US time delay mortar fuzes that were in widespread use in that period. Postwar, I'm sure you are correct, the mortar fuze technology advanced a lot and that time delay fuzes were eventually introduced.

Here's some links:

http://www.inert-ord.net/usa03a/usa5/6081/60mm.html

http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/72548-Question-60mm-US-WW2-mortar

[StrykerPSG]

US artillery had time fuzes, and towards the very end of the war, proximity fuzes, but US 60mm and 81mm HE mortar rounds only had point-detonating fuzes with one exception: the 81mm M56 "HE-Heavy" demolition round had a time fuze.

No delay with point detonating? I was pretty certain they were standard fare, however, wouldn't be the first time being incorrect. I have fired quite a few 60mm rounds in South America, using the older M2's with Panamanian and Honduran forces and their stocks were from the 50's with both options built in. Anyway, nothing worth arguing over. OK, posted while I was composing, so if they had 50's ammo, explains why they had delay and impact. Thanks for the clarification.

Matt

[Michael Emrys]

...the 81mm M56 "HE-Heavy" demolition round had a time fuze.

Interesting. Thanks for that. According to Wiki, the 107 mm must have had something like that too:

The mortar was called the "grass-cutter" by German troops because its HE shell exploded and fragmented just a few inches above ground level.

Read it here.

Michael

[gunnergoz]

US artillery had time fuzes, and towards the very end of the war, proximity fuzes, but US 60mm and 81mm HE mortar rounds only had point-detonating fuzes with one exception: the 81mm M56 "HE-Heavy" demolition round had a time fuze.

Don't you hate it when that happens? I stand corrected

So there was one US WW2 mortar round with a TD fuze:

http://www.90thidpg.us/Equipment/Weapons/81mmShells/M56/index.html