Choosing Ammo.

[James Crowley]

Given the various discussions relating to the merits, or otherwise, of CMBN versus PCO, one thing does strike me as an odd discrepancy based on my imperfect knowledge of both game systems.

PCO is, essentially, platoon based in so far as orders for individual units are subsets derived from the platoon leaders choice of action. In theory, less micro-management. But, with tanks, you get to choose what ammo they use.

CMBN is unit based (as was CMX1), such that any order can be assigned to a unit, whose reaction to it is based, as I understand it, on many possible circumstances and factors. You, as player, are the leader of each unit as far as giving orders are concerned. But you cannot choose what ammo your tank uses (nor could you in CMX1).

You would think that the ammo system would be the other way around in both games.

[akd]

That is needless micromanagement in my opinion. TacAI handles ammo choice pretty well, and can adjust it's choice on the fly based on ammo availability.

[Erik Springelkamp]

That is needless micromanagement in my opinion. TacAI handles ammo choice pretty well, and can adjust it's choice on the fly based on ammo availability.

Usually yes, but the Fck Ups are memorable.

This weekend, during my first TCP/IP game my Bradley decided to use its TOW on a nearby BMP, and ... missed, to be killed by a rocket from the BMP.

Why didn't it just kill the BMP with its gun, like it normally does :-(

[Ryujin]

If I recall correctly there is also a "schrodinger's ammo" fudge, the game doesn't decide which shell type is loaded until the tank fires on a target, so the AI will always fire the right round for the right target, it doesn't have to plan ahead.

[akd]

Usually yes, but the Fck Ups are memorable.

This weekend, during my first TCP/IP game my Bradley decided to use its TOW on a nearby BMP, and ... missed, to be killed by a rocket from the BMP.

Why didn't it just kill the BMP with its gun, like it normally does :-(

I'd ask more "why did it miss"? The BMP probably doesn't regret using an AT missile against the Bradley.

Bradleys/BMPs/Marders are a special challenge for the TacAI, and don't work entirely predictably with the "target"/"target light" order options. They have multiple weapon systems, and the problem here is not so much ammo choice, but selecting the right weapon system in many different circumstances. In many cases (such as that you presented above) the "right" choice is subjective, or may only be evident in hindsight.

I would like to see this improved for CMSF, but this is not an issue with vehicles in CMBN.

[James Crowley]

That is needless micromanagement in my opinion. TacAI handles ammo choice pretty well, and can adjust it's choice on the fly based on ammo availability.

But if you are the erstwhile commander of a tank, directing precisely where it should move, how fast it travels and what it shoots at, surely you should control what ammo it fires, no?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Except that in 99.9% of cases, it would just be an unneeded hassle.

[Barkhorn1x]

Except that in 99.9% of cases, it would just be an unneeded hassle.

Too true. It may be cool to give the 76mm Shermans a couple of HVAP "hot rounds" * that you would want to save for the Kitteas - and you would not want your Shermans wasting them on a H/T.

But most of the time the load-outs gonna be AT/HE/Smoke and - outside of Smoke which is a choice - the TAC AI knows what type shell goes to what target.

* BTW, the later model M-10s in the game have these rounds. They BETTER not waste them!

[Fredrock1957]

I can remember times in CMAK where my M5 didn't fire a 'canister' round when I thought it was appropriate and also I was screaming one day at an M4A3 to fire a 'tungsten' round but nope, got the regular AP round.... but the TacAI does do a good job....

[James Crowley]

Except that in 99.9% of cases, it would just be an unneeded hassle.

Not suggesting that you 'have' to choose, just that, maybe, it might be nice to have the option.

By the same logic, perhaps the AI should control what targets to shoot at :eek:

Not a big deal, anyway, managed without it in CMx1.

[Michael Emrys]

But if you are the erstwhile commander of a tank, directing precisely where it should move, how fast it travels and what it shoots at, surely you should control what ammo it fires, no?

It wasn't quite like that in real life. Most of the time, unless they specifically expecting an imminent encounter with armor, in proximity to the enemy they usually were loaded with HE. In the event that they suddenly came across enemy armor, the quickest way to unload the gun was to fire it. It might do some damage or rattle the enemy crew, but in any case it was the first round fired followed by something a little more appropriate to the target.

Michael

[Vanir Ausf B]

* BTW, the later model M-10s in the game have these rounds. They BETTER not waste them!

I'll have to see how much the TacAI has improved (hopefully) in CMBN, but in the CMx1 games it wasn't an issue of them wasting their silver bullets on halftracks, but of them obsessively hoarding the stuff to the point they would rather die than part company with their last HVAP.

[sburke]

Not suggesting that you 'have' to choose, just that, maybe, it might be nice to have the option.

By the same logic, perhaps the AI should control what targets to shoot at :eek:

Not a big deal, anyway, managed without it in CMx1.

I had a similar question in regards to WP. In the accounts I have read there seemed to be a trend of firing WP at German tanks at least in the Lorraine campaign which frequently induced the green German crews in the Pz Bdes to abandon the tank.

I don't know that it is documented well enough of frequently enough to be included, but was an interesting tactic.

[Noltyboy]

I think the TacAI should handle it. Just because we are omnipotent gods who know exactly what to do the poor gunners and loaders in reality are not.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I'll have to see how much the TacAI has improved (hopefully) in CMBN, but in the CMx1 games it wasn't an issue of them wasting their silver bullets on halftracks, but of them obsessively hoarding the stuff to the point they would rather die than part company with their last HVAP.

Hehe, yeah, that did happen.

Though generally the AI did an outstanding job. Usually when running low on "T" rounds it would try an ordinary round or two for range, even if it had no hope of getting through. Only once it was happy about the hit chance would it part with it's precious "T" rounds. Pretty prudent most times but sometimes you need to get that first shot take down. The TacAI giveth, and the TacAI taketh away.

But I would rather have that then any complications stemming from round selection. I can see myself catching a Panther in the flanks and insisting on only ordinary 76mm. But if the Panther then survives long enough to turn and face my shooter the HVAP I told it not to use is my only hope.

[gunnersman]

Hehe, yeah, that did happen.

Though generally the AI did an outstanding job. Usually when running low on "T" rounds it would try an ordinary round or two for range, even if it had no hope of getting through. Only once it was happy about the hit chance would it part with it's precious "T" rounds. Pretty prudent most times but sometimes you need to get that first shot take down.

IF they lasted long enough to use it. In my case.