Infantry popping smoke

[Chainsaw]

in CMSF the use of the pop smoke command for infantry was quiet painfull. it takes at least 2 full turns(2 minutes) to get it done.

it takes one minute to give the troops "face" command, so they dont pop the smoke just somewhere, and the 2nd minute it takes to throw the smoke. funny thing was that the volume of the smoke was so tiny that after the turn ended and your men moved out the next, 3rd turn, the smoke was mostly gone.

also i had some hair pulling moments when in the turn i used face command, the troop was shot at and smart as they are faced another direction by themselfs, makeing it impossible to deploy the smoke to where i wanted to, next turn.

is the pop smoke command in any way improved form CMSF, or is it as troublesome to use as it was? i would wish for the possibility to have a troop halt, face a direction and THEN throw smoke, all in the "same" turn... .

Cant find the thread at the CMSF forum where I posted this but here is the pictures:

All in one turn!

[Felix_45]

Interesting can you tell us what page in the manual? The teaser format is kind of hard to browse and find things easily.

A while back I was talking to my father about infantry using smoke grenades for a smoke screen. He said even in the 60s and 70s when he was a front line infantry officer they did not have the capability to create their own smoke screens from the soldiers themselves. They had to call it in from mortars or artillery to do it. They carried a small number of coloured smoke grenades for signaling but that was about it.

Ian

Ian,

Look on pages 89-90 for that. As stated before, I was surprised to see this in the manual because I recalled a CMx1 thread where BFC was adamant that infantry in WWII did not use smoke grenades, therefore they had no intention of giving them that option in the CMx1 games......so I was very surprised to see it in the manual.

I'm wondering has there been a change of thought with BFC, or is it just something that has been ported from CMSF with no thought?

Just to qualify my thoughts....I am not in the military....I'm not a military historian....so I am not an expert on these things and leave that kind of stuff to more knowledgeable men and women than myself...I'm just a guy who was brought up playing the old Avalon Hill games (squad leader my fave) and caught onto CMBB/CMAK only a few years ago.....

[TheVulture]

Cant find the thread at the CMSF forum where I posted this but here is the pictures:

All in one turn!

What Pandur was saying was that you can't control the direction the smoke is launched with the smoke command - you have to give a separate faceing command to get the smoke to go in the direction you want. Which often involves giving the face order one turn, and setting off the smoke the next turn (and yes, you can use the pause command to move out through the smoke quite cheerfully after that on the same turn).

Sometimes you can get around it if you have the freedom to plot a movement waypoint before the smoke command to control the facing of the unit (and thus the direction of the smoke), but that isn't always practical.

[Chainsaw]

Thevulture: thats not true. you can give face command, then hit smoke in the same turn.

so:

Face troop in right direction

press smoke grenade

Pause ca 20 second (wild guess always, wind etc depends...)

new route.

Press OK and watch the turn unfold.

[stoex]

You can always do this, TheVulture. You do not need to plot a waypoint, just give a face order and then a pop smoke order and the unit will throw the smoke grenades in the specified direction. Try it in CMSF and see for yourself. This was introduced with patch 1.20 i believe.

too late

[undead reindeer cavalry]

infantry smoke is a nice new feature over CMx1. it will be interesting to see how it plays out in practice. perhaps a bit of a "combat chess" feature, rather than one based on realism, but if it's not overdone it could add to some situations in the game.

[Felix_45]

Okay, I had some time and did some searches and found this....sorry I don't know how to past a thread so I'm just cutting and pasting from an old thread:

We are collecting/ammassing info on infantry smoke grenades usage, though don't hold your breath for now. Markus (and Tommi) have been very helpful. I have ammassed a lot of stuff too. In fact smoke grenades is another of those underreported, unclear aspects of WW2 micro-history that make being a military historian/afficitiando so much fun.

One thing is clear at least on the US side, while any given vet may have seen smoke grenades used in masking situations at somepoint during his combat experience, it was not employed at the same level as they are today, meaning you could not give a smoke grenade capability to every squad in CM and get a historically accurate outcome.

It's definately something that will have to be looked at in the future to determine how to make the means (effort to model this accurately) justify the end result.

There are other more deliberate means of smoke generation available to the player as it is, so you won't be lefting wanting for the capability. Hope that helps...

Los

I hope LOS does not mind me copying his thoughts out of the context of the thread but this explains a lot and it seems that if the use of smoke grenades is limited and not used in a gamey way it will certainly add to a hasty retreat.

[sonar]

In the Wermacht, wasn't it pioneers, who used smoke the most, assaulting fortifications and clearing mines/wire. So for them I'd say yes, though I can't say I've ever come across accounts of smoke grenades being used by infantry squads, not saying they were never used but not enough to make it into the game. Keep it for pioneers/engineers, it gives them that little bit extra edge that makes them more useful in the specific assault roles they were historically given.

[TheVulture]

You can always do this, TheVulture. You do not need to plot a waypoint, just give a face order and then a pop smoke order and the unit will throw the smoke grenades in the specified direction. Try it in CMSF and see for yourself. This was introduced with patch 1.20 i believe.

too late

(Chainsaw said the same thing).

Ah, I sit corrected.

The painful memory of giving face commands and watching smoke go somewhere utterly useless and unintended from earlier patches obviously left too strong an impression in my mind for mere patch notes to overcome - I'd given up on the tactic

[Michael Emrys]

In the Wermacht, wasn't it pioneers, who used smoke the most, assaulting fortifications and clearing mines/wire. So for them I'd say yes, though I can't say I've ever come across accounts of smoke grenades being used by infantry squads, not saying they were never used but not enough to make it into the game. Keep it for pioneers/engineers, it gives them that little bit extra edge that makes them more useful in the specific assault roles they were historically given.

This is what I've been thinking too. I think issuing smoke grenades to vanilla rifle squads was an unusual event, but they were standard issue for engineers.

Michael

[eniced73]

Will smoke create an imaginary forcefield protecting my men when crossing a street corner (I know it blocks LOS but what about LOF)? Or will you be able plot an area into or through the screen?

[Chainsaw]

dont know for the rest of the lot, but this is from a british manual, "infantry training Part VIII - Fieldcraft, battledrill, section and platoon tactics 1944"

Plt HQ:

Plt sgt: 4 grenades

Runner: 2 grenades

Rifle section:

Section commander: 2 grenades

No 2 bren gunner: 2 grenades

Riflemen x 6 : 1 grenade

Total: 10 per section

"10 grenades per sec. 6 grenades HQ. (36 [Mills fragmentation grenade],69 [HE grenade],77 [White Phosphor]).

74 (sticky bomb) and 75 (hawkins anti tank) grenades are occasional weapons only to be carried when specially ordered.

so from that you can draw the conclusion that every squad had smokegrenades. then the HQ section had a 2" mortar section with 18 smoke grenades to add to that. So the brits knew how to smoke!

[Chainsaw]

Will smoke create an imaginary forcefield protecting my men when crossing a street corner (I know it blocks LOS but what about LOF)? Or will you be able plot an area into or through the screen?

You can plot a movement through the smoke in CMSF. but you cant area fire into it. guess same thing for CMBN.

[ClarkWGriswold]

Is there any way to force a unit to shoot through the smoke? You can't issue a target order for a spot that you cannot see, and shooting at an area target directly in front of the smoke is useless. There's got to be some sort of way to tell your units to fire through smoke, regardless of whether or not they can see a target.

[Comandante]

You are dissuaded from overusing artillery smoke. They're firing White phospherous. Your men will actually experience casualties just walking through it. Infantry smoke grenades are HC smoke - pretty much air-ignited hexaclorethane and aluminum powder. It'll still probably kill you but not til you're in your fifties.

In the 1970s we had WP hand grenades that were supposed to be old WW2 stock. I can tell you for sure that our HE grenades for live grenade training (36 Mills IIRC) were WW2 issue as they had "Manufactured in 1944" printed on the cases. I guess recruit training was always sent the oldest stock available.

I was a grenade range officer for a period and one of my main roles was to go and find the 'blinds' (duds) each time a grenade failed to go off, prepare a plastic explosive charge, put it next to the grenade, light the fuse and then walk (don't run!) back into the bay

[Pandur]

good stuff about the smoke, i will try that.

[boresite]

This is what I've been thinking too. I think issuing smoke grenades to vanilla rifle squads was an unusual event, but they were standard issue for engineers.

Michael

Not a definitive source, but learned about infantry use of smoke in Squad Leader.... Given the work Avalon Hill put into their flagship game, I'd think there's some basis in fact.

Fondly remember learning about its use by 8-3-8 Wermacht Pioneers in Squad Leader Scenario #2, "The Tractor Works." (Not to mention flamethrowers and Satchel Charges.)

[Comandante]

Not a definitive source, but learned about infantry use of smoke in Squad Leader.... Given the work Avalon Hill put into their flagship game, I'd think there's some basis in fact.

Fondly remember learning about its use by 8-3-8 Wermacht Pioneers in Squad Leader Scenario #2, "The Tractor Works." (Not to mention flamethrowers and Satchel Charges.)

I remember that too, come to think of it. Those were well researched games and I'd be surprised if they got something like that wrong.

[Michael Emrys]

I remember that too, come to think of it. Those were well researched games and I'd be surprised if they got something like that wrong.

I wouldn't. The fudge factors they used in those games were sometimes enormous. Remember the manpack flamethrowers with a range of 80 meters? I don't claim that they got everything wrong, but I sure wouldn't cite them as an authoritative source for anything.

Michael

[Gromit]

Smoke usage, for infantry at least, seems to be one of those "Winter League" hot buttons- and it doesn't matter what WW2 tactical game forum you are visiting. As Steve has pointed out at various times over the years, unfortunately definitive sources citing common usage of "X" are hard to come by. I don't think smoke usage for cover (infantry smoke grenades) is any different, although I could be way off base. Vets are dicey sources at best.

This is one of those topics I'd love to have a definitive answer on once and for all, but I don't think we will ever get one.

Seems that a large planned assault would see infantry being issued smoke and/or WP grenades for use at a local tactical level, blinding a pillbox or bunker, etc. Knowing most GIs, they didn't want to shlep any more extra weight than they absolutely had to- makes you wonder how many smoke grenades would be present on your average Norman summer afternoon...

[Michael Emrys]

Seems that a large planned assault would see infantry being issued smoke and/or WP grenades for use at a local tactical level, blinding a pillbox or bunker, etc. Knowing most GIs, they didn't want to shlep any more extra weight than they absolutely had to- makes you wonder how many smoke grenades would be present on your average Norman summer afternoon...

Yeah, I think this is another one that BFC got about right. I have looked at thousands of pics taken during the war and the only ones I can recall that had deliberate smoke in them were either from smoke generators or artillery placed. The rare exceptions were during urban combat when troops needed to get across a street that was being raked by MG or small arms fire and there was no other cover. In open terrain, the screening effect of a grenade or two wouldn't be worth bothering with. You'd have the platoon mortar lob in a few bombs and make your move.

Michael