Grenade throw from/to windows

[dkchapuis]

In the first Video AAR, was there a question about grenades being throw from inside a building through windows? Does that actually happen?

Which leads me to another question - when assaulting a building do units pause to throw some grenades in first?

And as a bonus point - when will the graphics of an infantry dude bashing in somebody's face with his helmet be included?

[Lt Belenko]

No melee included.

[runessonn1]

Does that mean no hand to hand att all or just no animations??

[Cull]

I saw this (no melee thing) mentioned in another thread recently and didn't think much about it, but....what does happen when enemies collide?

I mean, it must be modeled, yeah, if not animated? Or no? Do they just fire at each other point-blank?

I always got kind of a kick out of melee in the earlier games of series, where you'd hear some grunts and smacking sounds and the pixeltruppens' heads would just sort of snap back and forth until one squad suddenly fell down

[YankeeDog]

In CMSF, as far as I know, soldiers don't use bayonets or any other close quarters weapons. They certainly don't do so graphically, and very time I've seen a casualty at point-blank range in CMSF, it's been via grenade or bullet. This isn't such a big deal in a combat environment where the primary personal weapon is an assault rifle with a 20+ round clip. Generally speaking, even at kissing distance, you're still going to shoot the guy rather than stab him if you've got a round in the chamber.

IIRC, a while back (way before the CMBN forum was open), Steve said something to the effect that hand-to-hand combat would certainly not be graphically represented in CMx2 (effort required to make it even halfway convincing would just be too time-consuming), but that they hoped to abstractly represent bayonets, fisticuffs, etc. in some way, since, while it was undoubtedly rare for soldiers to resort to weapons like this, it was probably somewhat more likely in WWII setting where mag sizes are smaller, and many personal weapons were only bolt-action.

This was a while back, though, and priorities may have changed.

As for grenades, CMSF allows grenades to be tossed both out from buildings, and also into buildings from nearby, so I would expect that this is in CMBN as well. Especially wrt tossing grenades into buildings prior to forcing an entry, there are specific gameplay techniques you need to use in CMSF to make this work well; it's a good guess that things will be similar in CMBN.

[AstroCat]

Yeah this would be a good one to know, if H2H combat is modeled in any way when units run into each other. I know for sure this happened often enough in CMx1 that it would make a difference.

[pagskier]

I hope there is some kind of close combat in game, even if you don't really see it..

I mean there was quite a lot of those in WW2.

And I just realised why my assault on building don't really work in my CMSF...

[ChrisND]

I saw this (no melee thing) mentioned in another thread recently and didn't think much about it, but....what does happen when enemies collide?

I mean, it must be modeled, yeah, if not animated? Or no? Do they just fire at each other point-blank?

This. You'd have to be stupid or out of ammo (or both) to try and punch someone when you've got a loaded weapon with you.

[Michael Emrys]

This. You'd have to be stupid or out of ammo (or both) to try and punch someone when you've got a loaded weapon with you.

I wonder about that. As stated before, most of the armies issued bolt action rifles to their soldiers. If you needed to work the bolt before you could fire again, you might choose another course of action instead.

Preference would be to toss in a grenade or two first and then have whoever is carrying the SMG take the lead. But if those alternatives are not available, and the guy who enters first fires once, then has a second threat pop up, it might be time to go to a butt stroke.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

BTW, if your orders were to bring back a prisoner, shooting might not be such a great idea either. It would come down to how immediate threat the other guy is to you.

Michael

[YankeeDog]

I hope there is some kind of close combat in game, even if you don't really see it..

I mean there was quite a lot of those in WW2.

Not really. Casualties to bayonet wounds and injuries from other types of hand-to-hand combat weapons were such a small proportion of overall battlefield casualties in WWII that they don't even show up on the charts.

This is not to say that bayonet charges, corps-a-corps brawls etc. NEVER happened. They did. But they were rare, and when they happened they often got written about precisely because it so was unusual.

WWII-era infantry weaponry wasn't as deadly as the modern stuff those of us who play CMSF have been playing with for the past few years. But it was still effective enough that it was usually suicide for infantry to try to close with an enemy until absolute fire superiority was achieved and the enemy was thoroughly suppressed. So usually, fighting reached arms-length distance only after one side or the other was so heavily attritted and suppressed that rout or surrender followed shortly thereafter.

There are, of course, many exceptions. And I agree that it would be best if the CMBN game engine did *something* to represent close combat, however abstractly. But it's important to keep in mind that we're talking about an unusual, outlier event.

Once caveat: Game players are probably quite a bit more cavalier in how they push around their pixeltruppen than real life commanders were. So it may be true that close combat will happen more often in CMBN games than it did in real life.

[SNAFU]

Casualties to bayonet wounds and injuries from other types of hand-to-hand combat weapons were such a small proportion of overall battlefield casualties in WWII that they don't even show up on the charts.

This is not to say that bayonet charges, corps-a-corps brawls etc. NEVER happened. They did. But they were rare, and when they happened they often got written about precisely because it so was unusual.

WWII-era infantry weaponry wasn't as deadly as the modern stuff those of us who play CMSF have been playing with for the past few years. But it was still effective enough that it was usually suicide for infantry to try to close with an enemy until absolute fire superiority was achieved and the enemy was thoroughly suppressed. So usually, fighting reached arms-length distance only after one side or the other was so heavily attritted and suppressed that rout or surrender followed shortly thereafter.

There are, of course, many exceptions. And I agree that it would be best if the CMBN game engine did *something* to represent close combat, however abstractly. But it's important to keep in mind that we're talking about an unusual, outlier event.

Once caveat: Game players are probably quite a bit more cavalier in how they push around their pixeltruppen than real life commanders were. So it may be true that close combat will happen more often in CMBN games than it did in real life.

I agree. Look at the records of the 101st AB and you will find very little hand-to-hand action. And they were one of the most aggressive units the Allies had. From what I've read, most Hand-to-Hand occurred in urban warfare and more often on the Russian Front than the Western Front. When Germans and Western Allies got that close to each other, somebody usually surrendered...

[pagskier]

From my reading of Candian/Rhineland campaings, it actually happened quite often,Especially in wooded/urban area(it seems) but usually, when people were getting overun, a few were dying/wounding and the winning part would soon have prisonners. But compare to Arty,small arm fire casualities, I need to say that it's not really comparable, that is true.

But my point was more that it's not something that could be neglected compare to a more recent scenario Especially when assaulting buildings/forest

It may be something about british tactics also... like creeping barrage and overrun the position after?

[LongLeftFlank]

This has been argued back and forth numerous times here over the years, and the preponderance of opinion has generally been that the most Close Quarters Battle casualties in WWII were caused by, in order, (1) bullets (2) explosives (3) all other weapon types combined. True bayonet charges "home" (as opposed to an infantry advance with bayonets fixed) were rare, at least in the ETO, and generally ended in the combatants primarily shooting or bombing each other anyway once they got to grips.

True hand to hand brawling occurred more often among individuals, and overwhelmingly arose due to mischance (e.g. weapon jams or you abruptly find yourself nose to nose with Jerry in the dark), but these events are not a focus of this game.

[Michael Emrys]

I tend to think it would happen most often in house clearing and mopping up operations where you might come upon one or a few enemy soldiers reluctant to surrender. In such situations, I agree that you would shoot them if you can, but that might not always be possible or practical. I agree that in Western Europe it would be a minor consideration, But still something to consider.

Michael

[SNAFU]

But when we get as far East as Stalingrad... Well, that's a whole different kettle of fish!

:cool:

[ChrisND]

I tend to think it would happen most often in house clearing and mopping up operations where you might come upon one or a few enemy soldiers reluctant to surrender. In such situations, I agree that you would shoot them if you can, but that might not always be possible or practical. l

My educated guess is that in most cases, in those instances you either turned around and ran or held the guy down long enough for one of your buddies to come in and shoot him.

[dkchapuis]

No melee included.

WHAT??!!!

If my GIs wont take off their hats and throw them at Germans a la Tom Sizemore in Saving Private Ryan then I dont want this game.

Now what am I going to do with this tin box.

[dkchapuis]

Especially wrt tossing grenades into buildings prior to forcing an entry, there are specific gameplay techniques you need to use in CMSF to make this work well; it's a good guess that things will be similar in CMBN.

Do tell ...

[LukeFF]

This makes me wonder how Soviet infantry are going to be handled once the game returns to the East. The Soviets placed a high emphasis on going into battle with fixed bayonets, so much so that their rifles were sighted in with the bayonet attached.

[SNAFU]

This makes me wonder how Soviet infantry are going to be handled once the game returns to the East. The Soviets placed a high emphasis on going into battle with fixed bayonets, so much so that their rifles were sighted in with the bayonet attached.

Yes. The Soviet doctrine was very different, relying on numbers of troops to overwhelm and over-run their enemy. Human-wave assaults were common. And the Germans were Very "reluctant" to allow themselves to be captured by the Russians...

[Magpie_Oz]

Certainly bayonet charges were pretty common with Australian and I dare say other Dominions as well as the Japanese the main idea being to scare the enemy into flight rather than necessarily stab them, of course that would be the result if they didn't run away.

My educated guess is that in most cases, in those instances you either turned around and ran or held the guy down long enough for one of your buddies to come in and shoot him.

That is more likely to result in getting yourself shot in the back by : who ever you are running away from in the first instance and your panicky buddy in the second.

Also shooting someone at point blank range is not only difficult given the length of WW2 rifles it is also fairly dangerous given that the bullet will go through them quite easily and end up God knows where, either in one of your mates or ricochet back into you.

[YankeeDog]

Do tell ...

There have been a number of good threads in the CMSF Strategy and Tactics forums about how to go about executing a forced building entry etc. I suggest going to that forum and doing some reading. Here's one to get you started:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=82927

[dkchapuis]

There have been a number of good threads in the CMSF Strategy and Tactics forums about how to go about executing a forced building entry etc. I suggest going to that forum and doing some reading. Here's one to get you started:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=82927

Thanks....

[ChrisND]

Bayonet charges were more psychological than anything else. In these charges people usually died from bullets, not manly good-for-tv melee combat. :cool:

I'll leave everyone here with one thought: in the American Civil War, bayonets accounted with less than 1% of casualties. Similar rates can be found for World War 1, the Sino-Russian War, etc.

That is more likely to result in getting yourself shot in the back by : who ever you are running away from in the first instance and your panicky buddy in the second.

Right, so instead they lock themselves in manly melee combat till one of them kills the other with their bare hands. :eyeroll: I'm not buying that most people would be up to that.