Overwatch?

[Hairy Pie]

Can someone explain what we mean by overwatch? I thought I understood this concept, but all that happens is my tanks get killed by other tanks or AT-14's!

On a big map I'll position my armour behind the crest of a hill so they can cover the lower ground with line-of-sight over as much of the map as possible.

I've been told before that leaving tanks on the crest of a hill will get them killed everytime, but if you put them on the lower ground how can they overwatch the vehicles/troops moving in front of them?:confused:

I look forward to hearing your views.

[stikkypixie]

Can someone explain what we mean by overwatch? I thought I understood this concept, but all that happens is my tanks get killed by other tanks or AT-14's!

On a big map I'll position my armour behind the crest of a hill so they can cover the lower ground with line-of-sight over as much of the map as possible.

I've been told before that leaving tanks on the crest of a hill will get them killed everytime, but if you put them on the lower ground how can they overwatch the vehicles/troops moving in front of them?:confused:

I look forward to hearing your views.

I believe the point of overwatch is to be able to shoot at places that can threaten your advance. Therefore you do not need to cover "as much of the map" as possible, but only dangerous areas. This should limit the exposure to enemy fire for the overwatch vehicles. If this is not possible, you will need to scout (and in my case this means getting guys killed) to locate threats to the overwatch positions and take them via arty/air/brute force. Not easy though.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

T90s and Kornet ATGMs are top of the range for the Syrians and are therefore the most dangerous capabilities you will face during the game. There are a number of factors to consder here/

You need to be careful when moving your tanks into hull down positions. I would suggest either using the Hunt command which will stop your tanks when they spot an enemy unit. You could do a Fast move up onto the ridegeline and reverse back down into a hull down position or you could give a slow command to get your tanks to move carefully into position. None of these are easy.

Popping smoke or firing an artillery smoke screen when moving into a hull down position might be worth considering.

You might also consider tactical solutions such as moving infantry equipped with ATGMs up first to cover your tanks/knock out enemy armour. You might also use artillery and airpower against suspected enemy positions

All easier said than done.

Luke

[George MC]

Yup easy concept, very challenging to do in battle.

Hull down positions on crest lines can skyline your vehicle and make it an easy target. So another tactic you can try and I've used before is a 'shoot and scoot' move. So have several tanks/vehicles fast up to just on the crest so they are hull down, then reverse back. Stagger this move at differant sections on the skyline. Don't have em stay there for too long. Hopefully they appear long enough for someone to take a shot but not long enough for the shot to be accurate. High risk strategy but if you also have other 'eyes on' might tempt unseen firers to reveal their location.

Even in WWII cresting was a tactical challenge. I mind reading some German tactic advice which was everyone goes over the ridge at full speed at the same time. Guess with that you might just want to take a peek over the top before you all drive head on into an AT ambush

[Hairy Pie]

I also read that tanks should move 'like water flowing through a valley' i.e. along the valley floors and not over tops of the hills. But that seems to negate the advantage of being able to kill things thousands of meter's away, and bring the engagement ranges down to 500m or so. I also read (I read a lot!) that, that would have suited the Red Army if they did have to scrap with NATO!

I've tried that German tactic of charging everyone over a hill, line abreast and hope for the best. Didn't work!

One tactic that has worked well, is using a small fast vehicle like a Scimitar, having it race over the top of a crest and pop- smoke, and continue down into cover. The next vehicle does the same, and then once there's a nice smoke screen going the IFV all come over doing the same thing. The tricky part is keeping the smoke screen going and spread evenly so there's no gaps. And it's also a bit dicey for the first coupld of vehicles, they seem to move fast enough to avoid a couple of ATGM shot's, but if there's any decent tanks watching the whole thing go's out the window in the first few seconds!

[JSB]

If You can shoot on all the map, the danger will come from all the map...

[stikkypixie]

I also read that tanks should move 'like water flowing through a valley' i.e. along the valley floors and not over tops of the hills. But that seems to negate the advantage of being able to kill things thousands of meter's away, and bring the engagement ranges down to 500m or so. I also read (I read a lot!) that, that would have suited the Red Army if they did have to scrap with NATO!

What movement are they talking about? In transit to a battle or during the battle itself?

[gibsonm]

Can someone explain what we mean by overwatch? I thought I understood this concept, but all that happens is my tanks get killed by other tanks or AT-14's!

On a big map I'll position my armour behind the crest of a hill so they can cover the lower ground with line-of-sight over as much of the map as possible.

I've been told before that leaving tanks on the crest of a hill will get them killed everytime, but if you put them on the lower ground how can they overwatch the vehicles/troops moving in front of them?:confused:

I look forward to hearing your views.

Have a read through here:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=94218

I think I’ve already covered most of it.

But if you want anything else, let me know.

[Hairy Pie]

Thanks Gibsonm, I think it's sitting around trying to spot stuff that gets me killed! Maybe I need to move around a bit more?

On another topic: how soon do you dismount your infantry from your objectives? Do you keep them on board to get them to the target area asap, hoping none of the vehicles takes an rpg/tank/atgm hit, or get them out asap to use their extra eyes and weapons but at the expense of speed?

[gibsonm]

Thanks Gibsonm, I think it's sitting around trying to spot stuff that gets me killed! Maybe I need to move around a bit more?

Maybe. But without seeing what you are doing its hard to be precise. There is no golden rule to say you can’t spend more than X seconds static.

But if you have vehicles in good fire positions (“hey look at me I’m on the top of a hill” is not a good fire position) providing overwatch (a term you are now hopefully comfortable with?) then the moving vehicles will be supported.

Then when they get to wherever they are going, they can support the first group’s move forward.

On another topic: how soon do you dismount your infantry from your objectives? Do you keep them on board to get them to the target area asap, hoping none of the vehicles takes an rpg/tank/atgm hit, or get them out asap to use their extra eyes and weapons but at the expense of speed?

Well it all depends.

- What is the ground like?

- Do you have covered approaches or is it a bare plain?

- Can the vehicles cover it quickly or must the slow down and pick their way through it?

- Who is the enemy and what anti armour weapons does he have?

- How much artillery do you have to suppress the objective?

- How much direct fire weapons have you got to help you cover the gap between when the artillery has to stop and you reach the objectives?

- What sort of vehicles do you have (trucks, APCs, IFVs?)?

- How much time do you have to complete the mission?

The answers to those questions (and a bunch more) have to be known first. (No one said fighting a mechanised war was simple ).

Again there is no golden rule or magic distance.

A rough guide is effective anti armour range.

If the enemy has little anti armour capability then you can roll over him.

If he has lots then you need to debus (get out and walk) early.

A rough guide for “effective” is when your first APC blows up.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

A tactic the Germans used late in WW2 whwn AT weapons became a really major threat was to send the infantry ahead of the tanks to spot enemy AT guns and take them on. To counter the threat of ATGMS like the Kornet a similar approach might be needed as part of a combined arms approach to the problem. Other suggestions such as the shoot and scoot tactic can also work as part of the above but I don't think there is a single, simple solution to this one.

However, one other tactic you can try is blinding the enemy with smoke. Try to figure out where the enemy positions might be and call in smoke. If the enemy does not have TI he will find it very hard to spot you Infrared smoke will blind TI as well. I have seen the Syrians use it frequently but NATO never seems to in my experience.

Luke

[Sakai007]

Depends if I know where the enemy is or not. If I know that point A to B is clear and the enemy is in this location, I will go to point B and dismount. Dismounting infantry are very vulnerable, so you don't want them getting out under direct fire. Plus, IFV and APCs are not very fire resistant, so a hit will often kill most if not all occupants. The thread Gibson linked to was me asking pretty much the same question you just did, and it helped me greatly, I hope it does for you as well.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

True and sometimes you just have to take an educated guess - or try to do your recon better next time!

It is a good idea to try to supress enemy before dismounting infantry and using some to continue suppressive fire while the assault goes in. Cowering enemy soldiers won't be doing much shooting, IFVs can help here but dismounting on an enemy position is very risky. Best to take a little time to dismount in cover or behind a smoke screenbefore commencing an attack.

Luke

[Vinnart]

Nothing in life is full proof, but here are some general guidelines of how I use overwatch:

First step to avoid getting tanks taken out is to RECON for threats that will take out the tank. I do this with infantry, and light vehicles like Hummers (or shall I say pawns.) A possible sacrifice of a hummer to save a tank is worth the exchange to then kill what took out the hummer with the tank. A good way to do this is with a fast “parallel patrol” across the map in front of your line with the Hummer last waypoint into some cover. I try to keep my tanks out of sight behind cover, and use “shoot & scoot”, and always use fast speed for moving from position to position. When I feel a bit more secure that it may be safe to put tanks in covering positions I will do so, but never in the opening of the game.

For Infantry:

I use layers of overwatch, and leapfrogging to advance. The layers are Battalion, Company, and Platoon. Platoons are broken into two parts; The HQ section w/ HMG sections, and javelin teams (The overwatch element), and the assault combat squads. Overwatch is always having a force in place to provide covering, or defensive fire for the advancing units. Once the advance unit moves to the new position they provide covering fire for the overwatch element to move up to its next position to get ready for the next move in the advance. The cycle continuous till you get to the objective.

It is amazing how much the game of chess can be an analogy for CM. The games can both be broken down into 3 parts; The OPENING (The initial movement into positions to grab, or cover key ground.), The MID game (when most of the fighting happens.), and the END game (when the scales tip to one player leading to victory.). Also the concept of overwatch is much the same (covering a square to move another piece, or protect a piece on a square). CM is like chess on steroids!

[Hairy Pie]

Some good tips there vinnart, although I feel for the Hummer crews. I play real time so I can react to anything that crops up immediately.

It seems from reading everyone's views that recon is the key, and you just have to man up and take the casualties, as you'll reap the benefit's in the long run. Does recon work like that in real life? Sounds like a tough job, although I guess the recon guys have the use of systems that aren't modelled in CMSF?

I'm going to start the first German campaign over the weekend and had a quick look at the map and available units, so plenty to play with there (no spoilers please, I have to learn this stuff myself, even if it is the hard way!)

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Recon groups are often in fast but highly vulnerable vehicles. While their speed protects them to a certain extent I prefer to dismount the recon teams behind cover, preferably a hill, then carefully move them into positions where they can have a good look around. Armoured Cavalry and similar types are somewhat better protected in Bradleys, Scimitars etc but these vehicles don#t have great armour either.

It might be a good idea to at least consider a pre attack bombardment and air strikes against possible enemy positions in scenarios where this support is available but don't overdo this as you might want some support later.

Luke

[Erik Springelkamp]

I'm going to start the first German campaign over the weekend and had a quick look at the map and available units, so plenty to play with there (no spoilers please, I have to learn this stuff myself, even if it is the hard way!)

You know that the most recent patch has a problem with German Panzerfausts?

You should either wait for the final patch, or reverse to the previous, if you want to play Germans.

[Vinnart]

@Hairy. Recon is one of fundimental doctrines of the "ART of War". Winning the information war is, and always will be a big part of obtaining victory. It is as important in real life as it is the game. Recon troops in reality are usually elite, special trained troops I.E. Marine Force Recon.

It might be a good idea to at least consider a pre attack bombardment and air strikes against possible enemy positions in scenarios where this support is available but don't overdo this as you might want some support later.

Luke

Definitly agree with, and practice what Luke said. I drop it all before the final push. I like to use any remaining javelins for arty too. They are one of my favorite weapons of the game, but be carfull when shooting over your own. I had a short round take out most of one of my squads recently I mean SHORT! dropped about 100 meters from launch on a target 800 meters away.

[Hairy Pie]

Well, your tips are definitely helping. I've had some really good results with using tanks in pairs (very close to one another) and any ATGM's and RR's are only getting one shot off!

I thought I had patched to the latest version, but my German troops all have Panzerfausts! I get them to aquire the additional rounds before dismounting them, so each squad has about four each. And man do they like shooting 'em!

[Ryujin]

It seems from reading everyone's views that recon is the key, and you just have to man up and take the casualties, as you'll reap the benefit's in the long run. Does recon work like that in real life? Sounds like a tough job, although I guess the recon guys have the use of systems that aren't modelled in CMSF?

A lot of people seem to think recon involves driving towards the enemy until someone explodes. While, yes, that works in a fashion, it's not going to make you too popular with what's left of your recon element.

First thing to keep in mind is recon vehicles aren't really that effective within the scope of CMSF battles (their job was done long before the battle started). They got you that info that the enemy is just on the other side of this village or whatever (not to mention some like the M707 at least feel undermodeled). The maps are simply way too small to use recon vehicles properly.

What you have in CMSF will be almost always dismounted up close recon and probing the enemy position. Lots of crawling and holding in position observing. Takes a lot of time and if everything goes right, recon should not be causing you to take casualties.

However, with the very short time limits in scenarios, especially for real time players, you have to do recon sparingly and pick what you take time to recon carefully. The rest can be a mix of area/arty fire on suspected positions and having your infantry moving up looking to take out AT. Your tanks can still support your infantry by doing very fast pop up attacks on spotted targets. It becomes a very delicate rock, paper, scissors, situation where your infantry move up hitting AT, avoiding other threats and your AFVs pop up hitting other threats, avoiding AT. Then throw in loads of area fire on anything that looks at you funny.

At least that's how I do it.

[jnt62006]

The key to successful movement forward in any tactical situation is your estimate or analysis of the situation. MTETT, METT-TC etc etc. Dont know what those are? Search the forum, turn over a few stones, you will get smarter and be glad you did. Basically it comes down to doing a thorough terrain analysis followed by thinking like the bad guy and you can pretty much figure out where the enemy is likely to be. Particularly on these smaller maps.

Use small infantry teams in a spotting role (look up ways to maximize covered arcs and sighting distances, etc). Use your arty and air to suppress or recon by fire suspected enemy positions. Have your tanks and/or APCs suppress suspected enemy positions with Target or Light Target fire commands.

I mean think about it. Would any army ever be successful if they gave their enemy a free shot or two before they responded in each and every fire fight? Of course not. So how is it done in real life? Check out my blog and videos for some clues and examples of using real life tactics to be successful in the game. I sustain very low casualties in all the scenarios I have published so far, meet the victory conditions and dont have to sacrifice any soldiers or vehicles to do it.

I dont get into the nitty gritty of vehicle placement, movement orders and all that, but watch the vids and you can learn alot. Good luck!

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=94016

http://cmsfwarchest.blogspot.com/

http://www.youtube.com/user/tjcmsf?feature=mhum#p/a/u/0/iLBBtGL6XY8

[Hairy Pie]

Hmmm, terrain analysis! That's something I guess you learn over time, and I think that's easier against a human opponent rather than the AI.

As for the clock, well that's another issue altogether!!!

[gibsonm]

Its not too hard and I’m unsure why the type of opponent influences it, after all we are talking about the ground and the enemy’s weapon systems and they remain pretty constant, regardless of what/who is commanding them.

A “simple” checklist like:

“OCOCA”

Observation and Fields of Fire

Cover and Concealment

Obstacles (man made and natural)

Key or Decisive Terrain

Avenues of Approach

Can make it easier for you.

Details here:

http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/survival/ocoka.shtml

[Vinnart]

Some good tips there vinnart, although I feel for the Hummer crews. I play real time so I can react to anything that crops up immediately.

No Doubt, You will lose some hummers now and again this way, and then again they may run the gauntlet untouched, but the quick intell is can be worth it. The main Hummer for this task is one that has the lighter HMG vs one with a 50 cal, NOT one with a MK 19. This is a great tactic to flush out RPG teams who will almost always miss the fast moving jeep thus giving away their position, and wasting ammo. I have had times when RPG after RPG have exploded like a trail behind the hummer. Not a real world tactic, but works good in a game to get the AI to blow his cover.

Some good info at jnt’s blog for anyone who wants to get an overview of military tactics, and how to apply it to the game. That is one thing that is cool about military gaming is that you can apply real world training, experience, or knowledge to improve your game play whether it be CM or something else, even team play shooters. I wish we had CM back when I was a trooper as I think it would have made visualizing, and understanding tactics easier. Overall I think CM is a good learning tool for soldiers.

[Erwin]

What Vinnart said is also the best use of the fast Brit Jackals. I find doing large circles at FAST speed which get closer and closer to a suspected enemy tempts them to fire and expose themselves quite well.