Is the AI Improved over origional CM?

[SonofDiablo]

One thing I always noticed about the old CM ai is when it was winning it would come out of great defensive terrain just to try to take back one lost objective. Is this fixed in this upcoming version?

Does the ai protect its flanks? Has it improved significantly over the old CM game series? Does it still suck on the offensive? or Meeting Engagement battles? Does it still buy stupid units when given the ability to purchase its own in Quick Battle setups?

Thanks in advance.

[George MC]

One thing I always noticed about the old CM ai is when it was winning it would come out of great defensive terrain just to try to take back one lost objective. Is this fixed in this upcoming version?

Does the ai protect its flanks? Has it improved significantly over the old CM game series? Does it still suck on the offensive? or Meeting Engagement battles? Does it still buy stupid units when given the ability to purchase its own in Quick Battle setups?

Thanks in advance.

Hi

First of in your question you ask about what are effectively differant types of ‘AI’. It’s worth bearing this in mind when discussing the ‘AI’ in CMBN (or CMSF as they use the same core game engine).

So before answering your questions I’ll just outline what the AI is in CMBN.

First of you have the TACTICAL AI – the easiest way to think of this is as your wee pixel guys (crews and infantry) behave in combat, it’s combination of many factors such as instinct for self preservation, aggressiveness, skill etc. Basically this is what makes em decide to ‘fight or flight’. The TACTICAL AI also manages how the infantry and vehicles move i.e. pathfinding, unit spacing etc.

Next you have the STRATEGIC AI (my own term). This is how the AI decides to fight the scenario i.e. how it chooses it’s plan of attack, how fats it attacks, what sort of defensive arrangement tec. Now this STRATEGIC AI operates according to a PLAN. This PLAN is designed by the scenario designer and simply puts involves the scenario designer assigning each unit an AI GROUP within an AI PLAN (There are five AI PLAN slots within which there are eight AI GROUPS). This does mean that in any given scenario the designer could have the AI attack/defend in five different ways – each of which could be very different or slight variations on a theme. These AI PLANS are created in the scenario editor and simply involved painting a bread crumb trail on the map (points the AI will move to) and associating a ‘behaviour’ with these points .e.g assault; advance; dash etc and giving it a time frame to do so. This time frame is measured using the in-game clock.

QUICK BATTLE purchases are a different beast and are not the AI as such. I’m not that familiar with how the QB thingy works – I’m more clued into scenario design and that sort of thing.

So in CMX1 (CMBB, CMBO, CMAK) the STRATEGIC AI was basically tied to where the designer had placed the FLAGs. If an AI controlled FLAG was lost it attacked. Simples J The TACTICAL AI was also a lot more basic. So overall in CMBN how well or how poorly the AI attacks is in a large part down to how good the designer is at creating AI plans. How the little guys perform in action at the tactical level is down to a large extent the game engine and how the player (human or AI) handles the troops.

At the moment there are no triggers i.e. if say you as the Human are attacking take an objective the AI will not necessarily attack you (unless the scenario designer has been canny and worked out roughly when you might take that objective and scripts an AI PLAN to counter attack.

[LJFHutch]

But what are the improvements over CMSF? That's the important question, not that I had many complaints about it. The TACAI I mean.

[scottie]

Any plans to give the "STRATEGIC AI" triggers ?

I saw a BF post a while back explaining the addition of more PLANS and GROUPS is a priority.

[George MC]

Any plans to give the "STRATEGIC AI" triggers ?

I saw a BF post a while back explaining the addition of more PLANS and GROUPS is a priority.

See post above last line

"At the moment there are no triggers i.e. if say you as the Human are attacking take an objective the AI will not necessarily attack you (unless the scenario designer has been canny and worked out roughly when you might take that objective and scripts an AI PLAN to counter attack."

[George MC]

But what are the improvements over CMSF? That's the important question, not that I had many complaints about it. The TACAI I mean.

Difficult to isolate precise details. I'm sure one of the BFC chaps could give exact details of tweaks.

From a players perspective i.e. my own then the TAC AI has been tweaked so it appears to behave in a way that is smarter and more real. I'll give some examples e.g. half track borne infantry will now fire from the half track, so if the half track is trundling along doing when it's whacked the guys inside will lean over the side and enage the nemey whilst the half track will speed out of the kill zone; gusy when under fire will react in a way akin to their experience etc so green troops might just stay down, whilst more experienced troops with good morale might push their attack.

Guess you have to play it to see it

[SonofDiablo]

You keep speaking of "the scenario designer" I'm not interested in "player" scenario designed battles I'm talking about the AI in QUICK BATTLES, random generated battles that the computer makes up on the fly. How is the AI going to be in those? As bad as it was in the old Combat Mission series or improved? I don't see a reason of investing in the same old game engine and ai just for some new graphical improvements.

[stikkypixie]

You keep speaking of "the scenario designer" I'm not interested in "player" scenario designed battles I'm talking about the AI in QUICK BATTLES, random generated battles that the computer makes up on the fly. How is the AI going to be in those? As bad as it was in the old Combat Mission series or improved? I don't see a reason of investing in the same old game engine and ai just for some new graphical improvements.

Quick battles are played on (a large number that can be expanded) pre-made maps, that have AI battle plans. So in this case it's the Quick Battle map designer who does the AI. Maps without AI plans will have very passive AI player.

The game engine is itself is not merely a graphical make-over and if you have doubts just wait for the free demo and try it out for yourself .

[dieseltaylor]

If playing QB's I would recommend humans anyway. AI can never be as good as a human.

.... to play that is. After all chess is now pretty much AI assisted but playing humans allows for compensating idiotic mistakes and strokes of genius . Much more fun.

[George MC]

You keep speaking of "the scenario designer" I'm not interested in "player" scenario designed battles I'm talking about the AI in QUICK BATTLES, random generated battles that the computer makes up on the fly. How is the AI going to be in those? As bad as it was in the old Combat Mission series or improved? I don't see a reason of investing in the same old game engine and ai just for some new graphical improvements.

Sorry mate but you didn't say you were asking about quick battles. However that aside - the STRATEGIC AI plan has still to be done by the map designer. There are no random maps generated in CMBN like there were done in CMX1. All maps in CMBN are created and a generic AI Plan (or plans) created. Mark Ezra has done a ton of work on this and has created some great QB action.

[SonofDiablo]

Sorry mate but you didn't say you were asking about quick battles.

Perhaps you better read the last question in my origional post then.

You pretty much answered what I was looking for though with this:

There are no random maps generated in CMBN like there were done in CMX1

I have no need for player made material. All I wanted to know is if the game was going to generate maps and battles without player design and if the ai was going to be worth buying this, I can see now it's not. Relying on player made material opens consumers up to trojans, malicious viruses and all other things they surely don't want on their computers. I perfer the program to make the battles and the maps just like in the origional Combat Mission and I never had to download or play one player made scenario.

I'm really surprised BF moved away from the computer generating battles and maps? This isn't going to help their sales any and more than likely will reduce them.

I have no time for player vs player type play so suggestions to play multiplayer are useless to me.

[George MC]

Perhaps you better read the last question in my origional post then.

Last line of your original question mate - "Does it still buy stupid units when given the ability to purchase its own in Quick Battle setups?" - relates to QB purchasing not AI Plans in QBs.

Anyways glad my comments were of use

[dieseltaylor]

Perhaps you better read the last question in my origional post then.

Let me say on behalf of the community that your conciseness and bonhomie will be sorely missed from here in the future.

[Zatoichi]

Let me say on behalf of the community that your conciseness and bonhomie will be sorely missed from here in the future.

Tee hee.

I guess some people have different priorities when they look at what CMBN will offer... Very different.

[WineCape]

......Relying on player made material opens consumers up to trojans, malicious viruses and all other things they surely don't want on their computers.

You should then stay away from the internet altogether, if you don't trust internet security software solutions as having the (unrealistic) 100% virus-free sticker on their DVD/box covers while browsing the 'net, never mind downloading stuff. In 11+ years of downloading stuff on BFC forums, and their related scenario depots, I have yet to pick up a virus/trojan/bug with my security software.

Does this warrant the assumption all BFC-related downloads are virus free? Of course not. It just depends where you stick your neck in to reduce that chance. Since your neck is already exposed - in more ways then you can imagine here given your comments - I advise that you don't draw everyone's attention to your neck's exposure. Life has a curious way of giving you what you don't want. Some believe it's karma...

[Smeel]

The playermade material is what makes me buy games. I can easily say that my top 10 games are just top 10 because of the playermade material. You are really missing out on something.

And seriously, is a random map generator a gamebreaker for you? Most games don't even have a mapcreator.

[stikkypixie]

The playermade material is what makes me buy games. I can easily say that my top 10 games are just top 10 because of the playermade material. You are really missing out on something.

And seriously, is a random map generator a gamebreaker for you? Most games don't even have a mapcreator.

To each his/her own. No-one is forced to buy a game. More CM for you and me .

[ZPB II]

I'm under the impression that the game ships with something along the lines of 200-300 quick battle maps, each with several different AI plans.

[Barkhorn1x]

I have no need for player made material. All I wanted to know is if the game was going to generate maps and battles without player design and if the ai was going to be worth buying this, I can see now it's not.

Oh well, we'll all miss you.

Relying on player made material opens consumers up to trojans, malicious viruses and all other things they surely don't want on their computers.

What the? I have d/l thousands of scenarios/skins/mods over the years and this has never happened to me.

This isn't going to help their sales any and more than likely will reduce them.

Now he tells us. Hey dude, where were you - and your 3 posts - when info. like this would have been useful to BF?

/sarc off.

TROLL.

[scottie]

See post above last line

cheers , sorry missed that. So not available now , hopefully we will see it eventually unless the general consensus is that the work around is good enough.

Relying on player made material opens consumers up to trojans, malicious viruses and all other things they surely don't want on their computers.

Agree there is a risk but its very VERY small and would have to be the target of someone very determined and be applied to someone very unaware of the threat.

[nathangun]

I have no time for player vs player type play so suggestions to play multiplayer are useless to me.

No way, what about the bragging rights when you get a victory over one of your mates ?

[dieseltaylor]

No way, what about the bragging rights when you get a victory over one of your mates ?

Do you honestly think he has any ? Or have I just missed the irony : )

[LJFHutch]

PvP is incredible, it's a tense clash of intelligence and tactics. So, a complete contrast to most games out there When you play against a computer you think differently, no matter how good it is.

[SonofDiablo]

Most games don't even have a mapcreator.

I'm not concerned with most games. All the Combat Mission games before CMSF have random map and battle creators. Steel Panthers has had random map and battle creators AND CAMPAIGN creators since Kampfgruppe. Panzer Command:Kharkov and soon Osfront has random battle AND CAMPAIGN creators. The Total War series has had random map creators since Shogun Total War origional. Conquest:Medieval has map creators. All Impressions games had random map creators.

I came here talking about Battlefronts Combat Mission series. If this game doesn't have random battle map creators fine it won't be bought by me and many more players that I'm aquainted with. I also could care less about your stupid karma statements since I don't believe in that stupidity or superstitions.

And yes there are malicious modders out there if you believe there aren't then you're pretty dumb. But, all this other stuff is moot anyway. I've had my say and that's that. This game won't be bought by myself and many others without random battle maps.

Also I can see now those at the wargamer were correct when they said these forums had gone down tremedously with nothing left on them but trolls and fanbois. Something else that won't help the sales of future Battlefront products either along with their intrusive eLicenese program.

Let me give you some advice. Just because something hasn't happened to you in a thousand tries (downloading stuff) doesn't mean it doesn't happen mo. Really is silly to post stuff like that (I've downloaded a 100 or a 1000 times and never got a virus or anything). Once again typical of the forum trolls. Plus I don't believe half of what they say anyways as they are just looking for attention or a laugh and more than likely are basement 40 year olds still playing kiddie games.

Anyways cya J...ks have fun on your stupid forum with this upcoming stupid game.

[dieseltaylor]

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