LUCASWILLEN05 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Not to mention what our political leaders tell us. Live by spin, die by spin But this is getting too far away from the subject and into potentially contentious waters so probably best to get back to discussing the military matters at this point. Luke 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Well, as always the hunt for a UN resolution and aproval of everyone they can think of has left NATO as inoperative as carridge without its horse... They all like to talk about Nato Reaction Forces and Euro Corps, but in the end... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 What obligation does NATO or anyone else for that matter have to Libya ? Sure it is not a good thing that is going on but for outside forces to intervene is a pretty big step. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan8325 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 What's even more funny is in this case the guy driving the BMP also probably calls it a tank. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 What obligation does NATO or anyone else for that matter have to Libya ? Sure it is not a good thing that is going on but for outside forces to intervene is a pretty big step. Well you dont have a war on your doorstep and are not getting your oil cut off...we have and our pockets are feeling it. In Mediterranean countries + Britain have wanted to install a no fly zone over lybia to stop Gadafis Air Force bombing rebel positions. This was said days and days ago. They cant reach consensus and they keep saying they want permision from this, from that because of this and that. Not the flexible response I would hope for. Its probably too late by now 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Anyway, g8 just voted a nono on the matter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I just do not see how a no-fly zone could possibly help. If your concern is the flow of oil, what happens if you impose a no-fly zone and even then the rebels do not win ? I cannot imagine Libya will be very happy with you. Even if the rebels did win there would be a huge down time before any oil flows again. I do not think any nation or organisation is justified in intervening in the internal politics of a sovereign nation. Can you imagine if Ghaddafi sent fighter jets to impose a no-fly zone over Madrid because of a Muslim uprising in Spain ? If that is so unthinkable why is the opposite not the case? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 What's even more funny is in this case the guy driving the BMP also probably calls it a tank. At this point, I am reminded of the lines from Buckaroo Banzai: It's like driving a truck. Good! What is a truck? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I just do not see how a no-fly zone could possibly help. If your concern is the flow of oil, what happens if you impose a no-fly zone and even then the rebels do not win ? I cannot imagine Libya will be very happy with you. Even if the rebels did win there would be a huge down time before any oil flows again. I do not think any nation or organisation is justified in intervening in the internal politics of a sovereign nation. Can you imagine if Ghaddafi sent fighter jets to impose a no-fly zone over Madrid because of a Muslim uprising in Spain ? If that is so unthinkable why is the opposite not the case? jaja, he can try, the difference is (regardless of the reason) we (NATO, West etc) have the means, he doesnt. im not arguing about the reasons, im arguing about the actions. The inability (again) to create a quick decision and moblize rapidly. Being in Europe we see again of the inability of the EU to react as a unified force (the thing its supposed to be, thats why ive never been fond of the EU) oil wise, Spain gets about 13 percent of its oil (or used to) from Lybia, Italy for example is in a problem since most of its oil comes from there, dont know what they are doing at the moment. We dont have a problem of supply, its the prices for us that keep rising as the crisis evolves. We could do without the hastle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Yes, you Europeans sure have that paralysis thing down, don't you? You'd think you'd been ravaged by two world wars plus 45 years of being occupied by nuclear-armed foreign armies or something.... Except for those "perfidious" Anglo Saxons of course. And the Poles, at least until recently. Actually, it would be nice to see the French move in unilaterally... hell, what does Sarkozy have to lose? La Coloniale plus some light mech and helos moving down from Benghazi would make short work of Gaddafi's brigades. Let the rebs do the messy MOUT stuff. Leave promptly after the engineers have cleaned up Benghazi port and got the water and lights back on. Au revoir, bon chance. Although it's probably easier if the the "Big E" air group just neuters the Libyan air and naval forces first. Skip the no fly zone. (NOTE: the above will never happen of course -- idle speculation) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 so given that Europe has been trading for oil of Libya for years and now the flow has stopped because of the rebellion wouldn't that mean you would want to put down the rebellion ASAP ? And by the same logic if NATO fighters are justified over Libya because we can and he can't does't that hold that he can attack the rebels with aircraft because he can and they can't? You don't think that is just a bit hypocritical ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUCASWILLEN05 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Sadly I suspect the question will end up being moot because our leaders are too gutless to take any robust action in time for it to matter.What we will end up is Gadaffi still in power and very angry with the West so we will be back in the position we were in during the 1980s and 1980s. He will resume work on his WMD program and will provide state support to terrorist groups like Al Qaeda. Another source of tension and stability in the Middle East and North Africa. Just what we need. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I do not see the NATO Air Forces or the USS Enterprise helping that situation. I also think it silly to suggest that your/our leaders are gutless for not racing off in a knee jerk reaction to no-fly, bomb, invade or what ever. We have tried the "Fastest Gun from the West " approach for good few years now and really hasn't done anyone much good. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Mate, you keep dragging this back into politics; we understand your reasoning at this point and most of us seem to disagree with that on some level. Let's get back to wargaming. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 And then what? Another Iraq-like situation (that everyone criticized the US for)? That's what terrifies everyone into paralysis. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 European goverments have become quite good at disguising invasions as "peacekeeping", a term now over used and undermined. For example in the 8 or so years Spain has been in Afghanistan and in the year we were in Irak, the word "War" or "offensive" was basically banned in the MoD. even though our Legionnaires, Paratroopers and Soldier are in combat every day. The only country willing to say the word War is Britian (Respect) The question should we Intervene? doesnt matter, its too late now anyway. Probably was never going to happen since the rebels stood at a very small chance of victory since the first day. For the best probably that it didnt happen, although we are still left with the decision hanging and again no consensus. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 so given that Europe has been trading for oil of Libya for years and now the flow has stopped because of the rebellion wouldn't that mean you would want to put down the rebellion ASAP ? And by the same logic if NATO fighters are justified over Libya because we can and he can't does't that hold that he can attack the rebels with aircraft because he can and they can't? You don't think that is just a bit hypocritical ? Again I want talking about the reasons, From Gadafis military perspective ofcourse why wouldnt he use his Airforce. Never said he shouldnt (from his perspective). Morally and ethically thats a different subject 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abneo3sierra Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 This is an excellent scenario idea guys! And really in this part, are we not supposed to leave anything remotely political out,and in the other forum area? In this part of the forum, we can assume that the political issues have had a bad result,however real or fictional that may be...and the scenario then would be to game the bad result. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 That's my thought. There's a thread on Libya in the General Forum that's better suited to the whys and why nots. I'd rather discuss just how small/light a Western force could reliably break the back of Gaddafi's son's "Second Security Brigade" and its T72s and Grads. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tactical Wargamer Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Most still play vs the AI, so unfortunately... A true pity..... Once you taste MP you never go back..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I take your point on the political debate being in another forum and will respect those wishes however I will point out that I was merely commenting on the comments made by others, rather than "dragging it back to politics again" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Will you look at that ^^ Ajdabiya is the last refuge of the rebels right? so this a Reb Forces shilka? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Will you look at that ^^ Ajdabiya is the last refuge of the rebels right? so this a Reb Forces shilka? No to both. Ajdabiya is the last town of significance before Benghazi, the second city of Libya and the heart of the rebellion. And both sides claim to be holding the place. The picture is next to a BBC story about the above, but there is no confirmation that this vehicle is in Ajdabiya. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abneo3sierra Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I would think that the most **realistic** rebel force, assuming any western aid, would perhaps be some western airpower, and an intel bonus to the reb side. Beyond that however, there is a US Marine assault ship in the AO that theoretically could also become involved. For the most part, heavier army units for the US, at least, are occupied in other areas. Some light help though, may be enough to tilt the balance...some good counterbattery, be it ground based or air asset..some ATGM units to neutralize the Libyan armor advantage...the Libyan force probably would be "green" or "average" at very best, and won't be themselves accustomed to being on the receiving end of capable fire...so NATO could quite easily make it a "draw" situation...then play a game of wait, because time is on the Rebels' side...most of the loyalist units would quickly have their loyalty tested, and mercs need to be paid, a challenge in itself with monetary assets frozen all over the world. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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