German CAS question.

[finalcut]

How effective was German Close Air Support during and shortly after the Normandy Campaign?As I understand it,the Luftwaffe was pretty beat up by this time in the war,and what they did have was mostly on the Eastern front and protecting the homeland.Will this be represented in the game?It would seem that the allies had air superiority during the whole operation and if so,wouldn't the allies have CAS available on most missions,while the Germans hardly get it at all?

Also,can both sides have CAS available on the same battle,wouldn't one side have to rule the skys with fighters before dedicating any real Air to ground assets to the fight.Just wondering how this will be represented in the game.

[gibsonm]

It would seem that the allies had air superiority during the whole operation and if so,wouldn't the allies have CAS available on most missions, ....

Not necessarily.

Yes there was a lot of Allied air, but there was also "lots+" of ground activity.

So if your engagement was the most important that day (Main Effort) then sure you'd likely get some. But if you were in a secondary effort then maybe no.

Even if you were Main Effort, if the weather was bad you might not get whatever was allocated to you (on the basis of it being a bright sunny day during the planning phase) on the day in question or if it was planned for night, unlikely either.

Sorry not many "all weather 24/7 capable" strike aircraft in 1944.

[JonS]

How effective was German Close Air Support during and shortly after the Normandy Campaign?

Totally ineffective. Their largest contribution was actually negative, in that the Flivos (the air-liaison and FAC guys distributed out to ground combat units) had poor ComSec and their messages were routinely decrypted by the Allies, providing valuable local intelligence.

As I understand it,the Luftwaffe was pretty beat up by this time in the war,and what they did have was mostly on the Eastern front and protecting the homeland. Will this be represented in the game?

Will what be represented - the Eastern Front? The Home Front? Not directly, no. AIUI, CM:BN represents individual tactical battles, which happen to be situated on the Western Front during June, July August, 1944. The is no Big Picture embedded in the game - scenario designers can have as much, or as little, of anything that exists in the editor in any given battle.

It would seem that the allies had air superiority during the whole operation and if so wouldn't the allies have CAS available on most missions,while the Germans hardly get it at all?

In general terms that's correct ... or at least what you'd expect. But it's entirely up to scenario designers.

Also,can both sides have CAS available on the same battle, wouldn't one side have to rule the skies with fighters before dedicating any real Air to ground assets to the fight.

AFAIK aerial combat isn't part of CMx2. If the designer decides to include CAS I can't imagine why they wouldn't both turn up. It's probably not terribly realistic for that to happen, but that's something else again.

In CM:SF (and CMx1) the designer is god - they can make things as realistic, or as unrealistic as they want, for whatever reason they choose. I can't imagine that's fundamentally changed for CM:BN.

Jon

[tyrspawn]

The Luftwaffe had local air superiority until the failed Ardennes counter-offensive, when the air corps was decimated in Pyrrhic attacks. The Luftwaffe was unable to recoup the losses, while the allies losses, though high, were easily recouped.

[Sequoia]

AFAIK aerial combat isn't part of CMx2. If the designer decides to include CAS I can't imagine why they wouldn't both turn up. It's probably not terribly realistic for that to happen, but that's something else again.

Jon

I wouldn't expect aerial combat to ever be in the game, but I've been asking if Anti-air fire made it into the initial game a few times now. Hopefully some one who can comment will notice and reply.

[finalcut]

Totally ineffective. Their largest contribution was actually negative, in that the Flivos (the air-liaison and FAC guys distributed out to ground combat units) had poor ComSec and their messages were routinely decrypted by the Allies, providing valuable local intelligence.

Will what be represented - the Eastern Front? The Home Front? Not directly, no. AIUI, CM:BN represents individual tactical battles, which happen to be situated on the Western Front during June, July August, 1944. The is no Big Picture embedded in the game - scenario designers can have as much, or as little, of anything that exists in the editor in any given battle.

Thanks for the answer.What I meant by this is will the Germans lack of CAS be represented due to most of thier stuff being on the Eastern front,therefor,not in this game.Will there be a noticable one sidedness like in CMSF as per air power.

[MikeyD]

German airpower is there in all its glory more or less for the same reason that Syria got airpower in the last module. Players wanted it to construct 'fantasy battles' with. You read rare reports of a single straffing run down the beaches, or night time blind harrassment bombings, or more desperate ground attacks by the end of the war, but nothing of the scale of the allies deep interdiction campaigns. I recall reading that the left flank of operation Cobra was entirely defended by nothing but a conveyor belt of U.S. air sorties.

[finalcut]

German airpower is there in all its glory more or less for the same reason that Syria got airpower in the last module. Players wanted it to construct 'fantasy battles' with. You read rare reports of a single straffing run down the beaches, or night time blind harrassment bombings, or more desperate ground attacks by the end of the war, but nothing of the scale of the allies deep interdiction campaigns. I recall reading that the left flank of operation Cobra was entirely defended by nothing but a conveyor belt of U.S. air sorties.

Thanks for the reply.I was hoping a Beta Tester would answer.Awesome stuff.

[Michael Emrys]

The Luftwaffe had local air superiority until the failed Ardennes counter-offensive...

I may not understand you correctly, but on a first reading that contradicts just about everything I've read. From the spring of 1944 onward, the Luftwaffe had air superiority nowhere in the West. That doesn't mean that they couldn't now and then put in an appearance, even a successful one. But that doesn't add up to air superiority in the sense that the term is normally used.

Michael

[Dietrich]

Just because the Allies had air superiority in and around Normandy and their sorties outnumbered the Germans' by, like, 12,000 to 1 (in 6–30 June 1944, 10,061 single-engine fighter sorties flown by Jagdkorps II, versus an estimated 120,000–140,000 flown by the Allies, according to Donald L. Caldwell), does that really mean that the Luftwaffe had so little a presence as to be not worth including German air assets?

In my view, comparing Normandy in 1944 to Syria in 2008 seems fairly apples-to-oranges. If, however, the Allied air forces had destroyed or otherwise rendered unserviceable every German combat aircraft in and around Normandy...

But I'm sure someone with a more grognardly knowledge of the air aspect of Operation Overlord will blow my suppositions out of the water. =P

[Michael Emrys]

...does that really mean that the Luftwaffe had so little a presence as to be not worth including German air assets?

Don't sweat it; it's in. You can play with it to your heart's content.

Michael

[JonS]

If, however, the Allied air forces had destroyed or otherwise rendered unserviceable every German combat aircraft in and around Normandy.

Well, in the sense of effective CAS sorties, that's exactly what the Allies achieved in Normandy. I am not aware of any GAF CAS sorties in Normandy that would be even vaguely similar to what is available in CM. It is absolutely true that the occasional GAF a/c managed to slip through the Allied air-cordon that was set up - and continuously maintained - some 200 miles south and west of the beachhead, and then strafe or attack what amounted to random targets of opportunity, but none were able to coordinate their sortie with any manoeuvring the German ground forces happened to be conducting. They made a determined attempt to do that during LUTTICH, and failed miserably.

tl;dr: occasional tip-and-run attacks do not count as CAS.

However, as already pointed out, the Germans in CMBN have CAS available in the editor for designers to use, so all is good

[Dietrich]

I made no mention of CAS; nor did I say tip-and-run attacks were equivalent to CAS. Nor was I expressing dismay at any supposed omission of German air assets.

I concur with the reasonableness of omitting Syrian air assets in CMSF (before the NATO module, that is), since the Coalition air forces, likely the same as in OIF, would have destroyed or rendered otherwise unserviceable pretty much every Syrian combat aircraft, not simply destroyed some with planned or opportunistic airfield attacks and kept almost all the rest harried or at bay through round-the-clock overlapping air superiority-type sorties. But just because the Allies had round-the-clock air superiority over Normandy and beyond doesn't mean that German air assets ought to be left out; it just means that it would be blue-moon rare for even a single German a/c to be encountered in a CMBN scenario, whereas not a few scenarios would include at least one Allied a/c.

In other words, I concur with German air assets being included and am glad that they are.

[Battlefront.com]

To echo what JonS said...

German CAS exists simply because people want it to be included, no matter how unrealistic it might be. And since it wasn't a big deal for us to add, we added it. Same reason why the Syrians in CM:SF now have access to CAS.

But historically speaking? There shouldn't be any German CAS in CM:BN at all. Not even in the Editor. But that's not as fun for people wanting to play fantasy QBs or German vs. German battles.

Steve

[JonS]

I made no mention of CAS

When you speak of CM and air support, you are necessarily talking about CAS. There is no other air in CM.

nor did I say tip-and-run attacks were equivalent to CAS.

No indeed, but that is all the Germans were able to manage in Normandy.

[MikeyD]

We'd be having a different discussion if this was Operation Torch or the Salerno landings. Back then the Germans still had the wherewithall to do some decent air-to-ground attacks. By mid-44 it wasn't that the Germans were running out of planes, they were running out of experienced pilots. And shooting down B-17s over the Ruhr was a more pressing concern than straffing a truck convoys in Normandy.

[Cambronne]

well,in my campaign those to enjoy air supremacy are the Germans.Any problem with that? I'm the designer,I decide the conditions,don't I? Hmm,maybe I'm gonna give them some American allies,former members of the Klan that changed sides in the middle of the war. Personally I find the historical campaigns a little boring,since they seem somehow...familiar, even before playing them.

[sawomi]

Not to include full German air support would be a mistake. To make historical correct scenarios is one thing. To make well balanced H2H scenarios another. Don't forget that CMBN has Blue-on-Blue and Red-on-Red options (Axis vs Axis and Allied vs Allied).

[stoex]

Dietrich,

Not to be all nitpicky here, but just to set the mathematical record straight: If the Germans flew around 10,000 sorties in the time frame you mentioned, and the allies flew about 120,000...then the ratio is 12 to 1 - not 12,000 to 1 as you stated. If the allies had had a 12,000 to 1 air advantage, the war would have ended within days I think .

[Dietrich]

A perfectly reasonable nitpick, stoex. Twas a bit of inadvertent hyperbole on my part.