C2 Bug Found With Proof (Iron/Elite) ***Explained**

[Lanzfeld]

You can test this one yourself with the 1.30 demo (but I think it goes back to way before then).

Start the UK demo as Red.

In ELITE mode take your CO HQ and put them on the roof of the building they start in. Now move around the MG and/or RPG teams that report directly to the HQ unit on the roof. As you can see, if the teams have LOS to the HQ they stay in command with the "visual distant" C2 link (the pic of the upper torso). It doesnt matter where on the map you put them as long as they have LOS to HQ they are in command. Green dots support this.

Now...

Restart in IRON mode and do the same thing. You will see that you can NEVER get them in command with the "visual distant" link. They go from voice link (pretty close to HQ) to out of command with NO visual distant link EVER. Red dots support this.

Either...

ELITE mode has the bug where "visual distant" works even when it is NOT designed to.

OR...

IRON mode has the bug and "visual distant" is never working as a C2 link.

[Lanzfeld]

or maybe "visual distant" C2 link is not allowed under IRON mode? The manual doesnt say. Hmmmm.

[Moon]

From Charles:

Not a bug.

I don't have that scenario so I couldn't do the exact test, but I set up a similar one and Iron visual C2 was working correctly.

The "test" for visual C2 is more stringent in Iron than in Elite. In Elite, all friendlies are assumed to "easily and immediately see" all friendlies unless there is a really obvious reason that should not be the case (like a big wall between them). It's as forgiving and easy a test as you can imagine.

The "iron" test for visual C2 is more "real". It actually makes the HQ and the subordinate unit "spot" each other. Just having clear LOS is not enough. You need to succeed in spotting, and it must be mutual - HQ must spot subordinate and subordinate must spot HQ. And spotting is not 100% certain to succeed even with clear LOS. Dim light, smoke, haze, being under fire/distracted by combat, morale, angle off your forward vision, poor quality troops -- there are lots of reasons you could fail to spot someone. And sometimes it just takes a little time. The spotting eventually succeeds but not immediately. And that's all that's happening in his example.

[panzermartin]

Iron mode is soooo hardcore. Wargaming mashochism..

[Lanzfeld]

Moon that explains it perfectly! In the UK demo it is just at or before sunrise so in IRON mode the dim light would prevent mutual spotting while in ELITE mode the LOS works due to the "less stringent" spotting requirements. Thanks!

It makes me think of all the people who play ELITE mode thinking that the only difference between ELITE and IRON is just many, many "same team" ?'s but now I realize that staying in C2 is quite a bit harder in IRON mode then ELITE mode (for reds anyway).

So it is, indeed, harder to keep in C2 in IRON mode. IRON mode is the only mode I will play from now on.

The manual was a little light in this area for me.

Learn something new everyday!

[Erik Springelkamp]

The manual states that in Iron mode a unit can get 'lost' when out of command, yet, when no unit is selected, I see all units. Did I not understand the manual correctly, or did I not yet encounter the right conditions?

[phil stanbridge]

Having only played on vet level forgive my ignorance here, but if I was to try my hand on a harder level, does the AI have the same implementation?

[Alan8325]

Having only played on vet level forgive my ignorance here, but if I was to try my hand on a harder level, does the AI have the same implementation?

I was wondering this as well. I often couln't get visual C2 links yet when I'd see the enemy after hitting "ceasefire" I noticed that they usually had visual-distant C2. I'm assuming they are under the same rules and, since they are usually defending, they are assumed to have already had the time to establish visual C2 links. I always play in Iron mode, BTW.

[MeatEtr]

It makes me think of all the people who play ELITE mode thinking that the only difference between ELITE and IRON is just many, many "same team" ?'s but now I realize that staying in C2 is quite a bit harder in IRON mode then ELITE mode (for reds anyway).

So it is, indeed, harder to keep in C2 in IRON mode. IRON mode is the only mode I will play from now on.

The manual was a little light in this area for me.

Learn something new everyday!

Something I've never heard of before, not even from Iron mode players. I, like many others assumed the primary difference from Elite and Iron mode is the players UI in relation to his units LOS or visual C2 to each other.

I may start playing Iron mode now. But I'd prefer a units icon being dimmed to relate this info to me, rather than being turned into question marks(disappearing). Since there are occasions when I want to be able to see friendlies while having another unit chosen to issue orders.

Bottom line, this needs to be added to the manual along with other little things that perhaps only Charles is privy to. In other words, open the lid on the jar and give his brain some air.

[__Yossarian0815[jby]]

The manual states that in Iron mode a unit can get 'lost' when out of command, yet, when no unit is selected, I see all units. Did I not understand the manual correctly, or did I not yet encounter the right conditions?

What happens is that you can give commands to the unit but nothing happens. I´ve only experienced this playing red and even then it doesn´t often happen.

[Erwin]

Am curious. Since you can still have a god view of all your units when no unit is selected, doesn't that make Iron a bit pointless/misleading.

It sounds like you need a sim where you can't see anything other than your HQ unit when no unit is selected, and go from there.

[akd]

;1215720']What happens is that you can give commands to the unit but nothing happens. I´ve only experienced this playing red and even then it doesn´t often happen.

There must be other conditions than simply being out of C2 causing this, as I've never experienced this playing on iron with blue or red.

[Alan8325]

Am curious. Since you can still have a god view of all your units when no unit is selected, doesn't that make Iron a bit pointless/misleading.

It sounds like you need a sim where you can't see anything other than your HQ unit when no unit is selected, and go from there.

If ideal AI existed at the squad and platoon levels, yes, but the player basically has to play the role of commander at several different levels simultaneously. It wouldn't make sense, for example, for a fireteam to have to receive an order handed down from the company commander to move to the second floor of a building to get a better view, or a tank commander needing an order to get his tank in a proper hull-down position, etc. Since AI currently doesn't exist to make units do this correctly on their own, the player has to do it.

[Lanzfeld]

Am curious. Since you can still have a god view of all your units when no unit is selected, doesn't that make Iron a bit pointless/misleading.

No because, as we just found out, there are more stringent checks for certain C2 links in Iron vs Elite.

Iron = Harder to keep C2 (visual distant for example).

[Erwin]

I do understand what you mean guys, but having the god view is still way easier than RL communications - although with the new systems they seem to be getting there. I was simply proposing that making a game "harder" to play doesn't necessarily equate to it being more realistic... it's still a game.

The CM systems created by BF are brilliant because they create the illusion of reality - verisimilitude, suspension of disbelief, call it what you will. When players actually believe that they are learning how to command real life units, that is what makes a great entertainment wargame.

[Battlefront.com]

The "player as god" problem is inherent with any game where the scope of control exceeds a single simulated Human per player. Anything more than that, arguably even a Squad, means the "player as god" issue creeps in. The higher up you go the more it becomes an issue. Interestingly, though, at some point in the rise up in scale it levels out and then starts to decrease a bit. Not much, but a bit.

For example, a strategic level game is inherently directed abstractly in real life. Whereas a game like CM the minutia of battle is directly simulated and therefore not abstractly controlled in real life. A Corps is ordered to take a town or a city by someone higher up, a soldier decides to go to the NE corner of the third story of the 4th building on the block because his Squad Leader told him to NOT because his Battalion Commander did.

Therefore, in order to have a game we must have "player as god". It's unavoidable. What we can do is what we are doing... mitigating it as best we can.

Steve

[Lanzfeld]

This thread has made me think of somewhat of a quirk.

One of the big differences between Iron skill and Elite skill is that it is harder to maintain "visual distant" C2 in Iron skill level. Red seems to rely on this form of C2 much more heavily than Blue since blue has all the gadgets. Thus C2 becomes harder for Red more so then Blue.

So for the people who play Blue: Iron skill might be easier to then Elite skill due to Red having a harder time staying in C2!

[Erwin]

"So for the people who play Blue: Iron skill might be easier to then Elite skill due to Red having a harder time staying in C2!"

Interesting point.

As a corollary, I wonder if the AI does a better job of keeping a unit within range of its HQ than us humans.

[Lanzfeld]

This thread has made me think of somewhat of a quirk.

One of the big differences between Iron skill and Elite skill is that it is harder to maintain "visual distant" C2 in Iron skill level. Red seems to rely on this form of C2 much more heavily than Blue since blue has all the gadgets. Thus C2 becomes harder for Red more so then Blue.

So for the people who play Blue: Iron skill might be easier to then Elite skill due to Red having a harder time staying in C2!

Nevermind. I did some more testing. The AI is not subject to the same restrictions as a human player. In other words, Iron does not make it harder for the AI to stay in C2, only a human player. Oh well. AI has a hard enough time as is I guess.

[Alan8325]

Nevermind. I did some more testing. The AI is not subject to the same restrictions as a human player. In other words, Iron does not make it harder for the AI to stay in C2, only a human player. Oh well. AI has a hard enough time as is I guess.

I wonder why the C2 rules don't just apply to all units on the map equally, whether they are BLUE or RED?

[akd]

As Lanzfeld stated, RED side is not treated differently, AI side is treated differently, whether RED or BLUE. The AI absolutely does not need additionaly handicaps.

[Alan8325]

That's what I meant to say. It seems like it would take extra work to make separate C2 rules for the AI side, rather than have one set that applies to all units on the map regardless of human or AI control.