noxnoctum Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 Alright so I was playing a game against Ali-baba yesterday... I had most of my infantry in this very dense cornfield where you couldn't see jack (it was about the height of the dudes in it). Now I had way more infantry in the cornfield than he did, and when my guys moved (i.e. were standing up) they could spot them, but the second they arrived at a waypoint they hit the dirt (which in any other situation would be good), and so could not fire on the enemy. Since I outnumbered him, obviously I wanted my guys to all stand up and light their asses up! As it is (I was trying to flank my squad with a javelin behind his leopards), I was forced to continually issue hunt commands. They'd run into them (the enemy infantry), fire a few shots (and take a casualty usually lol as his guys were stationary), and then hit the durt again. My only other option in this situation was to use quick, but then I'd take a TON of casualties as I'd have to basically get right on top of him (within 25 meters) for them to not lose LOS when they hit the dirt. Eventually I got within grenade range so I could just issue blind area attack orders, but I took a LOT of casualties getting there. (like I said it was in my interest to move up, but his guys were stationary). It'd be really nice to have a way to FORCE a squad to stay crouched or standing up completely to achieve better LOS. Like I said 90% of the time, the auto "take covered firing positions" is GREAT, but there are times where it is extremely frustrating to be unable to make your guys STAND UP to spot targets. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny(FGM) Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 I've noticed this too (see my post on your other thread), rather than having a force stand/crouch order though (imagine if you forgot to take it off when you moved them out into the open!) perhaps when troops are in terrain that blocks their LOS when prone the tac AI could force them to crouch/stand, only going prone when they need to take cover. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waaarg Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 I don't know if it would work with infantry, but when I want a vehicle to scan multiple directions, or fire on two targets but stay hull down, I issue small orders from its original position, to its original position (repeat as necessary, though for vehicles I haven't found much beyond 2 of em). Assault command might work for this with cover arcs behind when they are moving away from contact. If not, we unfortunately won't see any new features in Shock Force, though in Normandy and beyond.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holman Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 Forced crouch/standing seems gamey to me. It's unrealistic to force soldiers to stand like Napoleon's Old Guard when their instinct for preservation and modern tactics tells them to fire from cover. It makes them robotic. The ideal solution is better AI routines for soldiers to know when to emphasize cover over fire and vice-versa. CM has always been about giving orders to units and trusting that they'll be obeyed. The behavior of soldiers within those units should belong to the AI. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noxnoctum Posted November 5, 2010 Author Share Posted November 5, 2010 I've noticed this too (see my post on your other thread), rather than having a force stand/crouch order though (imagine if you forgot to take it off when you moved them out into the open!) perhaps when troops are in terrain that blocks their LOS when prone the tac AI could force them to crouch/stand, only going prone when they need to take cover. Good suggestion, and then if you wanted them to stay down you could just issue a hide order with a cover arc (if you wanted an ambush) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noxnoctum Posted November 5, 2010 Author Share Posted November 5, 2010 Forced crouch/standing seems gamey to me. It's unrealistic to force soldiers to stand like Napoleon's Old Guard when their instinct for preservation and modern tactics tells them to fire from cover. It makes them robotic. The ideal solution is better AI routines for soldiers to know when to emphasize cover over fire and vice-versa. CM has always been about giving orders to units and trusting that they'll be obeyed. The behavior of soldiers within those units should belong to the AI. Well as it is I think I made it pretty clear the major shortcoming of the AI in this situation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoolaman Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 It's a problem in the other drection too. You cannot area fire into a deep wheatfield because you can't see the ground below. So in a funny way your guys are perfectly safe prone in a field. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 I have the feeling that once you tell your guys to stand/crouch they will be shot by the enemy pretty quickly or at least suppressed. If moving closer to the enemy position lost you a lot of men, you pretty be sure that standing and shooting at the enemy will also lose you a lot of men. Was it some sort of reverse slope defence? In those situations there are two possibilities either take a different approach route or accept the casualties. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noxnoctum Posted November 5, 2010 Author Share Posted November 5, 2010 I have the feeling that once you tell your guys to stand/crouch they will be shot by the enemy pretty quickly or at least suppressed. If moving closer to the enemy position lost you a lot of men, you pretty be sure that standing and shooting at the enemy will also lose you a lot of men. Was it some sort of reverse slope defence? In those situations there are two possibilities either take a different approach route or accept the casualties. Like I said it was a (flat) cornfield, and I outnumbered him about 5-1. Had I stood all my men up so that they all had LOS on his men (even if his were prone), I would have slaughtered them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincere Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 Sounds to me that force of similar quality would be quite attrtional in that situation. From what I've seen and read the troops who were not supressed would kneel or stand at some point to get their shots off, especially the grenade launcher MG guys. If and when the fire fight was being won then more guys would stand more often. IMO it would be best left to the Tac AI. I loved this sort of situation in CMBB. What worked for me then was moving units to get 2 or more vs 1. Edited: seems like this wil be more important to get right in Normandy and beyond. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 I wish we could torch the field like in CMBB. Drive those rats out! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dietrich Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 Conversely, have any of y'all ever used the Hide command to get your pixeltruppen to stay down so they remain in cover? A few months ago I was playing a certain small-ish scenario ("OPPW", I think it's called) wherein a Stryker rifle squad of mine was behind a low wall on the edge of an orchard and kept taking near-miss sniper fire, and after several minutes and a couple casualties they couldn't locate the sniper, so I gave them a Hide command so they would stay down in cover. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 Like I said it was a (flat) cornfield, and I outnumbered him about 5-1. Had I stood all my men up so that they all had LOS on his men (even if his were prone), I would have slaughtered them. I guess I can't really picture it. Because in my opinion, if an enemy is not safe to approach, then it's probably not safe to stand and shoot at them, especially when there is no cover. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 Conversely, have any of y'all ever used the Hide command to get your pixeltruppen to stay down so they remain in cover? A few months ago I was playing a certain small-ish scenario ("OPPW", I think it's called) wherein a Stryker rifle squad of mine was behind a low wall on the edge of an orchard and kept taking near-miss sniper fire, and after several minutes and a couple casualties they couldn't locate the sniper, so I gave them a Hide command so they would stay down in cover. The best way to keep them down once hidden is to give them a short cover arc until you are ready to let them up again. I made the mistake of forgetting this in a recent scenario I was playing (wink wink nudge nudge) and it cost me a half squad or so of Marines. Mord. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dietrich Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 Good point, Mord. However, in the situation I was describing, once my pixeltruppen were Hide-ing (prone) behind the low wall, they no longer had LOS/LOF to their front, i.e., to wherever the sniper was; the point was simply to keep them in a position where they couldn't get shot. For ambush-type situations, though, Hide + short-range cover arc works best. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 Ahh...I misread what you were saying. I thought you were trying to keep them hid without them ever firing. Mord. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatEtr Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 +1 to this feature request, a choice in posture would be great. Hate having to use a move command for them to see an enemy and engage them. This can and does cause unnecessary casualties. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.