How Abstracted is Air Support in CMx2?

[Barkhorn1x]

Keeping in mind that outside of the demo, I have no experience w/ CMx2.

So, looking ahead to CM:N; how abstracted is air support – still basically a shadow crossing the landscape and world goes boom!?

[SlowMotion]

In CMSF there's no shadow crossing the landscape, like in CMx1 games. But there's plenty of radio traffic from planes and helicopters when they approach the target. This makes it easier to avoid friendly fire etc. You can also see the status of each plane while a mission is being executed.

But no idea how it will be when WW2 technology is in use. No shadow, no radio?

[phil stanbridge]

I'd like to know how this will work too. Also whilst on the subject of air support, I wonder if artillery support will be handled in a similar fashion also - ie, a FO and plenty of ordnance to choose from

[Elmar Bijlsma]

What is also important to mention is that unlike in CMx1 where the planes roamed at random and might just attack anything, in CMSF you'll be able to call them in on a certain area or a specific target.

So while we lost the shadow and the active AA fire, we gained considerable control over it. It will be interesting to see what remains of that control in 1944.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

It will be interesting to see what remains of that control in 1944.

Hopefully, none.

[MeatEtr]

So while we lost the shadow and the active AA fire...

I was not aware of that, what a bummer, it was really really kool seeing the AA guns chattering and seeing the tracer fire shoot up to the sky. So if this isn't in then I take it we won't be seeing many AA AFVs then.

[phil stanbridge]

This is all speculation though - let's not forget, the Axis forces should feature Flakwagons etc - and maybe, just maybe you will see them utilised in their primary role rather than at ground based targets. I don't see why not.

[SlowMotion]

...

I wonder if artillery support will be handled in a similar fashion also - ie, a FO and plenty of ordnance to choose from

I hope it will be possible to limit this available ordnance in Scenario Editor. For arty, tanks etc.

[Jonny(FGM)]

Hopefully, none.

I saw some discussion quite a while back that said by the time of the normandy time period the US did have tac air controllers. I'd like to have some rudimentary control over the aircraft but also just let them do their thing.

If AA fire is left out then i shall be majorly dissapointed as i think it could lead to some balancing issues.

[YankeeDog]

I saw some discussion quite a while back that said by the time of the normandy time period the US did have tac air controllers. I'd like to have some rudimentary control over the aircraft but also just let them do their thing.

It depends on exactly what you mean by "Tac Air Controller," but I think this is mostly incorrect in for Normandy and actually most of the ETO campaign. "Tac Air Control," in the sense of Company or even Battalion level commanders being able to directly call in air attacks on specific targets in the tactical timeframe, was extremely rare, if it existed at all Normandy.

There were very long discussions about this back in the CM:BO days. Despite what we've been presented in the movies, I think it's pretty conclusively been shown that Hollywood images of Allied ground forces especially laying down colored smoke to mark targets, followed by F/Bs coming just a few minutes later, just isn't the way it happened in all but exceptional cases.

Later in the ETO, the allies did begin to formulate protocols for keeping close-support aircraft on call over advancing armor columns. But these systems generally were not in place in June-August 1944.

If it's to be kept 100% realistic, the most control a player should expect to would be something like being able to paint a broad area of the map at the start of the scenario (think 400x400m granularity), as a planned target zone for air support. And the air support should probably miss their appointed target zone fairly often...

The biggest place air support should show up in CM:N is in German lack of resupply and reinforcements (i.e., scenario design).

[Barkhorn1x]

The biggest place air support should show up in CM:N is in German lack of resupply and reinforcements (i.e., scenario design).

I would agree here as Tac Air was more often ranging/interdicting behind the front lines and not directly on top of them although there were exceptions.

[YankeeDog]

Absolutely. But even when the Tac Air was right on top of the front lines, it was almost never a case of an Infantry Captain reacting to a changing tactical situation by calling in air support, at least on the CM timeframe.

Basically, I think that if the player is able to control Tac Air at all in CM:N, is should play more like the "preplanned barrages" of CMBB, where a general target area and strike time is plotted at the start of the scenario, and less like the directed air strikes of CM:SF.

[Dietrich]

I was not aware of that, what a bummer, it was really really kool seeing the AA guns chattering and seeing the tracer fire shoot up to the sky. So if this isn't in then I take it we won't be seeing many AA AFVs then.

If AA fire is left out then i shall be majorly dissapointed as i think it could lead to some balancing issues.

The context of Elmar's words ("we lost the shadow and the active AA fire") shows that he is referring to how air support works in CM:SF rather than how it presumably will work in CM:N.

If shadows and on-map anti-aircraft assets were absent from CM:N, that would be a distinct step backwards from CMx1, which doesn't make sense, especially since CMx2 involves so much more simulating things explicitly (1:1 or thereabouts).

[MikeyD]

About overflight shadows. Lets remember we're playing modern war. There's precious few aircraft these days thats going to overfly the enemy position during an attack. I believe all U.S. aircraft ordnance in the game is precision weapons now (can't recall if British Harrier drops Iron bombs or not). The only fixed wing aircraft that straffs is A-10 and Marine Harrier. I'm not entirely sure what an F-15 ground shadow would look like from 15,000 feet up!

There will be more cause to grouse about it in CM:Afghanistan. 1980s SU-25s and MiG 21s. There you're likely to get aircraft overflights during attacks. But gameplay-wise all you're complaining about is insufficient eye-candy.

[JonS]

Discussion of Normandy airpower and FACs here. It's just discussion though, no specifics on how it might work in CMN.

[MeatEtr]

The context of Elmar's words ("we lost the shadow and the active AA fire") shows that he is referring to how air support works in CM:SF rather than how it presumably will work in CM:N.

I did read that wrong, thanks for pointing it out Dietrich. I assumed I missed this info from Steve somewhere. It'd be great if we could get him to shed some light on this.

But yeah I never felt like we missed out on having shadows or AA fire in CMSF. It doesn't belong for obvious reasons that MikeyD mentioned.

[MeatEtr]

From that thread Jon linked to:

5-5-2009

The graphical representation will be the same as CMx1 (probable) or like CMx2 (doubtful), but not like TOW (absolutely).

The UI will not be the same as CM:SF because, as The Vulture points out, that would be ridiculously unrealistic However, when we get to the second WW2 Family (later war Western Front) the US will have Forward Air Controllers available. Extremely rare, more limited than in CM:SF, but definitely better. I'm going to have to brush up on what the status of tactical air control was for the Germans in 1944. Obviously they rarely had aircraft available in the first place, but earlier in the war they had the equivalent of FACs.

Ground fire will matter like it did in CMx1.

Steve

[phil stanbridge]

Ah that's very interesting then. So in all likelyhood there may be shadows and AAA assets may get to shoot them out of the sky - but you will have very limited control over them. I guess that's a reasonably realistic representation! Personally, if it's realistic then I'm happy regardless of the outcome. I think Artillery will play a much more important role and I'm hoping there will be a significant list of different types. I can just imagine the list - 81mm off map mortars, 105mm, 150, rockets, really heavy stuff - naval artillery support perhaps. Much more choice than in SF obviously. If that's handled in a similar fashion, that will be interesting to see. Select your FO, choose the type of artillery from a longish list perhaps, choose a reasonably accurate target location, fire...

One thing I hope NOT to see all the time - air support friendly fire! If I recall it was a real pain in the backside in CMBO/CMBB/CMAK.