British troops in Afghanistan

[-Eddie-]

I found these two videos pretty interesting, especially some of the contrast between the conventional setup in CMSF and real-life counter-insurgency warfare. Note the use of things like the GPMG at section level instead of at platoon/company level. Also the sniper/sharpshooter with Minimi LMGs on his back.

Grenadier Guards behind enemy lines

Royal Anglians on patrol

Edit: Should have said the Royal Anglians video was filmed on the 13th of February (this year) and I think the GG one is a recent one too.

[Other Means]

Good links, thanks.

[souldierz]

Great footage, thanks for the links. Some very tough fighting going on in Afghanistan.

[Vark]

Surely firing a third generation missile, costing upwards of a $100,000, at a suspected sniper is a tad wasteful? Surely if we are going to be in theatre for ten plus years we should have developed/fielded a less expensive, albeit high effective, way of taking out such targets. Is a fire and forget, soft ejection/multi engine, dual warhead missile really needed against Afghan compounds, even with very thick walls. Sure, the thermal sight on the firing unit must be a great help in target aquisition but the missile it launches could be more economically designed, perhaps the missile with only direct fire mode and not the top down capability?

I watched an account of the Paras hunting a former farmer turned sniper, who only turned violent because the British were offering, what he thought was, derisory compensation for clearing some of his trees. The difference between the offer and what he wanted was in the region of a thousand pounds, but the Paras were operating under strict guidelines about amounts of financial compensation. They killed him eventually, by using Javelins costing a total of £14 million!

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Excuse me while I take my pinch of salt.

£14 million? That's about 200 Javelins.

[hoolaman]

It's not inflationary if you burn the money.

[Vark]

Gargh!! £1.4 million! Sorry Elmar, posts today are riddled with errors. I am trying to find the report, I think it was a link from a post on this forum, as the officer was relaying the tale he walked over and showed the pile of expended launch tubes and there must have been 15 plus.

I know when I brought it up with some Afghan specialists, they all had similar tales of wasteful uses of kit. The received opinion, amongst the military analysts, was that they should have given out scoped Lee-Enfields to the troops so they could engage beyond 500m without use of SAW's amd GPMG's. Then again some of them seemed to want to reintroduce the Bren, so perhaps it was the beer talking!!!

[-Eddie-]

Oh I agree with the financial wastage involved in the Afghan war. Our troops could stay just as safe I'm sure with something similar to the CLU that fires a SMAW/SRAW like warhead.

AFAIK that's what the LASM was designed for, although I suspect there's a reason why the troops are using the Javelin instead. Would you like to hump around one or two CLUs and multiple missiles during patrols just for the 'cool' effect?

As for the use of scoped Lee-Enfield then see this: L129A1 DMR

Edit: You might also be interested in the

that the Army's also getting. Sorry it's Future Weapons:p

[vincere]

Yep, sections still carry gpmgs with at times. It'd be nice to see a random chance of having in your section in the game.

[flamingknives]

The thing with Javelins is that the cost isn't in the shaped-charge warhead, but the seeker and control units that allow you to fire-and-forget out to two and a half kilometres with accuracy sufficient to hit single windows or vehicles. The CLU, while reusable, is also expensive.

LASM and MATADOR are good, but are much shorter ranged. Using a Javelin puts you out of rifle range.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Yep, sections still carry gpmgs with at times. It'd be nice to see a random chance of having in your section in the game.

It's much the same with the Dutch army.

On paper the FN MAG was replaced with the Minimi on the section level while the MAG moved to a platoon level asset. In practise however they appear to be used in the same role as before.

[vincere]

It's much the same with the Dutch army.

On paper the FN MAG was replaced with the Minimi on the section level while the MAG moved to a platoon level asset. In practise however they appear to be used in the same role as before.

Yeah, it's not rocket science. If it's available, ammo included, and you can carry the weight take more fire power.

[-Eddie-]

Didn't think this was worth a new thread but it kind of continues with my theme of real-life vs CMSF. Ok, just to make this perfectly clear *I know this variant hasn't been accepted yet let alone in service*.

This variant (FRES-SV) may replace the Scimitar in the British Army.

The other contender is the ASCOD 2, although I'm yet to see their candidate.

[hcrof]

Im not sure I am very impressed to be honest. It looks large and heavy but without a telescoping mast. It is neither fish nor fowl, it cant be as discrete or mobile as a small, light vehicle but it can't fight for information against the heavy weapons which you have got to expect on a modern battlefield.

My perfect vehicle would keep the gun which seems like a great piece of kit but make it smaller, less well armoured (14.5mm max), very 'network centric' and give it an ability to 'peek' over obsticles using a mast or a UAV or something. Then strap a javelin or two to the outside of it.

It all depends on price I suppose, if we can get these off the shelf for a lot less money (and hassle) than developing a new system then I suppose it could be worth a punt.

[-Eddie-]

Well this vehicle is designed with networking in mind. Specifically common architecture with the Warrior under the new WCSP programme and I think I read somewhere they'll be able to share target information.

Bear in mind the FRES-SV isn't just to replace Scimitar, it's for deploying to Afghanistan where there are RPGs galore.

And you're right, this is kind of off the shelf (chassis is basically a CV90, and the turret and cannon are part of the WFLIP competition too). If we did develop a new system for ourselves it'd end up late, overbudget and crap. Then everyone would moan again.

[flamingknives]

http://www.generaldynamics.uk.com/FRES/default.asp

The other FRES SV contender.

You couldn't strap a Javelin to a vehicle. My god, the crew might think that they were allowed to shoot at proper tanks, and we can't have that, can we?

Neither are really off-the shelf, as both have to be designed around the clockwork lemon that is the CT40. Any money saved on a semi-MOTS chassis is instantly burnt qualifying a specialist gun and ammunition that doesn't really give you much of an advantage and costs much more (because no-one else uses it.) You would have thought that we would have learnt from the experience with the RARDEN.

[-Eddie-]

Thanks for that FK. Is the CT40 dual or single fed? I think I'm right in saying that the 25mm cannon the Bradley sports is dual feed to allow for quick ammo changes isn't it?

Do you know if the turret is the same as the candidate for the WFLIP?

[hcrof]

Eddie - True that it will go to Afghanistan but how many scimitars have we lost there? IEDs are probably a bigger threat than RPGs anyway and extra mobility is a great counter for them.

flamingknives - 42-45 tonnes! Oh god, why don't we just buy a proper tank!?

As for the javelins, I know that was a swipe at British army policy But seriously, the javelins don't need to be fired from inside the vehicle but they add a nice extra capablity that means they can pack a nasty sting 'just in case'.

[-Eddie-]

But what I'm saying is I'd prefer to be in a vehicle which has quite a good chance of keeping me alive if it is hit by an RPG than a vehicle which might get me killed if I faced a DshK or even a PKM.

In the Scimitars defence though, in the book Attack State Red it does note how useful the Scimitars were/are at using their thermals to take out fleeing Taliban in the Green Zone.

Scimitar is going though, and it'll be replaced by something much heavier, but much more protected. Btw, Flamingknives do you know if this or the ASCOD 2 (SV variant) will be able to carry specialist teams such as Javelin or Starsteak teams?

[flamingknives]

The CT40 has a dual feed capacity, using a complicated feed mechanism because the rounds are not linked. Most, if not all modern medium calibre weapons are dual feed. The exception being the 40mm Bofors in the CV90, which has three ammunition bins to choose from, and the RARDEN, which is manually loaded with clips of three.

As far as I know about the GD solution, the 42-45 tonne figure is a capability, not a baseline weight. AIUI the basic vehicle weighs in somewhere between 25 and 30 tonnes, so that's a great deal of additional capacity.

Both FRES SV offerings are available in a number of arrangements, including APCs and ARVs. Being as the recce vehicles are derived from IFVs, there should be some room in the back, although the space in the back of the CV90 version is tiny. If you put two blokes and kit in there, they would have to be very good friends and not in any way claustrophobic. The sensible options would be to have one or two blokes in the back with a mini UAV (like Desert Hawk) that can be launched over defilade. Weapons teams would be fun from a wargaming perspective, but I don't think they'd be too useful in real life, what with logistics and the like. That said, the Javelin CLU is supposedly a pretty handy recce asset.

[Lampshade111]

I like what I see, but both contenders are certainly quite bigger than the Scimitar.

Is the Scorpion still in British Army service, I noticed it is not in CM:SF?

[flamingknives]

Nope, Scorpion is long gone. With a 76mm gun it counted as a tank and was therefore politically valuable to get rid of rather than proper tanks during arms reduction negotiations.

[-Eddie-]

Just a quick update with regards to FRES-SV, ASCOD has won it!

MoD release

GD FRES page

[Blackcat]

One has to hope that the MOD knows what it is doing, but I think they may have called this one wrong (it wouldn't be the first time).

[flamingknives]

I've seen a number of comments saying "the CV90 would be better"

Why?