Follow-On CM:N Thread to Holiday Bones, Normandy Style

[John Kettler]

Am starting this thread to resume the one we had to close down because of too many posts.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=90197

Would like to resume the discussion with some tidbits I came across while watching Normandy: The Great Crusade on the Military Channel.

The first is that in a portion devoted to the working up of the SS HJD, what are clearly snipers are shown training. They're using Gewehr 43s with scopes.

The second is that in a letter home from a U.S. GI who landed on D-Day he describes his ammo and grenade load: 3 x Frag, 1 x Smoke, 1 x WP, carrying ammo consisting of 60 rounds, 3 x bandolier, plus a set of AT rifle grenades and the blank cartridges to fire them. (See FM 7-10 excerpt below for discussion).

The third is that I saw some remarkable footage of a single file of British infantry passing through a hedgerow gap, carrying a PIAT. Here's the good part. It was being carried fully loaded, with one man on each end, rather like one side of a stretcher team might operate.

Here's a nice find

Excerpt from FM 7-10: Rifle Company, Rifle Regiment, June 2, 1941

Five things stand out: casualty radius for U.S. Frag grenade, first data I've ever seen on U.S. offensive grenade's casualty radius, clearly expressed ability to fire M9 series AT rifle grenades from the shoulder, not just the ground as many references state, bazooka combat procedures and the previously never encountered use of a bazooka round as a field expedient antitank mine.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/FM/FM7-10/FM7-10-1.html

4. Hand grenades.--

1. The fragmentation hand grenade is used primarily in defensive situations. The fragmentation of this grenade is effective through a radius of 30 yards.

2. The offensive type of hand grenade is used against personnel in offensive situations. The concussion caused by the explosive charge has an effective radius of about 7 yards.

5. Antitank rifle grenade.--The antitank rifle grenade, HE, M9, is provided for the purpose of combating tanks and armored vehicles. The grenade is fired from a U.S. rifle, caliber .30, M1903, which is carried by the antitank rifle grenadier of each rifle squad. A practice grenade M11 is provided for instruction in mechanical training, marksmanship, and technique of fire. Each rifle from which the grenade is to be fired is provided with a soft rubber pad to be placed over the butt, and also with a launcher (muzzle extension) which fits over the muzzle and into the base of the fin-tail assembly. The launcher holds the grenade in place during the period of aiming. The grenade may be fired from the prone, standing, sitting, or kneeling positions, or from a foxhole or slit trench. Within its effective range, approximately 75 yards, the high explosive grenade M9 is effective against all known light and medium tanks.

6. Antitank Rockets.

1. Rocket launchers and high explosive antitank rockets are provided for use against tanks and armored vehicles. Rockets are also effective against buildings and masonry. To provide necessary assistance in loading and reloading, antitank rocket launchers are normally operated by teams of two men each. A practice rocket is provided for instruction in mechanical use, marksmanship, estimation of leads, and technique of fire. The rocket may be fired from the prone, standing, sitting, or kneeling position; it may also be fired from a two-man fox hole, provided the hole is so constructed that the blast from the rear of the launcher will not be deflected against the loader or other nearby personnel.

2. The performance of the high-explosive rocket is generally similar to that of the antitank rifle grenade, except that the effect is approximately 30 percent greater for the rocket than for the grenade. The rocket has a maximum range of 800 yards. It is reasonably accurate against moving targets at ranges up to 300 yards. In order to achieve greater accuracy and assist in effecting surprise, fire against moving targets should be withheld until the last practicable moment.

3. Selected individuals will be specially trained to function as rocket teams and all members of the company will be given sufficient training to familiarize them with the use of rockets and with the care and cleaning of launchers.

4. The launchers and rockets issued to the rifle company will normally be carried [on the transports assigned] to the weapons platoon. When required for use in combat, each launcher will be manned by a team of two men, designated by the company commander.

5. The rockets will be employed for the close-in protection of the company from armored vehicles which have evaded other antitank means; and for offensive use against machine gun nests or such other targets as the situation may require. Upon entering combat, the company commander assigns the launchers in the manner which will most effectively further his mission. In the attack, where the terrain favors hostile tank attack, they should be near that part of the company most threatened by such an attack. During reorganization after an attack, and in the defense, they should be placed near the perimeter of the company to cover the most likely avenues of mechanized approach. The company commander will coordinate the use of the rocket launchers with any other antitank protection furnished his company. They may be assigned to tank hunting parties when constituted.

6. In addition to its use as an antitank projectile when fired from the launcher, the rocket may be used as an antitank mine as follows:

1. The rocket is placed horizontally, or at an angle, nose up, in a hole in the ground about 2 feet deep, properly sited to achieve the desired effect. It may be placed in a roadbed or set horizontally into the side of a cut or bank. It is fired electrically by attaching the ends of two wires to the rocket ignition wires, one to the brass contact ring on the ogive, the other to the fins. Ordinary twisted pair field telephone wire and the dry cell battery from the launcher suffice for this purpose.

2. Figure 1½ (A) illustrates a rocket prepared for firing as an antitank mine. The container cap has been removed and the other end knocked out. The container is thus used as a guide for the rocket. A hole is punched in the container cap through which electric firing device wires (or trip wire) are run. When connections have been made, the container cap is slid in place over the fins to protect the contacts from fouling. Loose dirt and leaves are then placed over all of the rocket except the nose; the nose is concealed by covering with leaves or light bunches of grass.

3. Figure 1½ ( illustrates the rear of a rocket prepared for firing, using a trip wire actuated igniter (pull type engineer igniter with blank cartridge).

4. One or more rockets may be buried, nose up, next to any standard antitank mine, so that when the mine is exploded by a tank in the usual manner, the rockets will detonate sympathetically, destroying the tank.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Lanzfeld]

Man I thought we were getting new bones!

Drat.

[John Kettler]

Lanzfeld,

Sorry, but we had quite a discussion going in the first thread that had nothing to do with bones and everything to do with sorting out vexing issues for the new game.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Lanzfeld]

Yeah,

Just the title to the thread fired me up for a few! New Bones!!!

[John Kettler]

Lanzfeld,

At least now there's a place for them when they do show up!

Regards,

John Kettler

[ASL Veteran]

Lanzfeld,

At least now there's a place for them when they do show up!

Regards,

John Kettler

Nice recovery

[John Kettler]

BFC,

Excerpt from Camp Lee Basic Training Manual, 1 February 1945 clearly shows M9 series rifle grenade is used from the shoulder for direct fire vs. AFVs.

http://www.hardscrabblefarm.com/ww2/rifle_grenade.htm

From an amazing site--506 PIR ammo loads at Normandy! It's extra helpful in that it tells how much got dropped, as well as how much was on the individual soldier. Even gives ammo type split for the 81 mm mortar! Site's a tremendous visual resource for your modelers, too. Upper limit for grenade load is 6 with special bag, otherwise 4. Gammons not listed, but take up little space until stuffed with Comp "C" carried by all paratroopers. Note the Browning LMGs are loaded with AP, which gives them capability against 250/251 series halftracks.

http://www.101airborneww2.com/equipment.html

Dale Dye on the WW II U.S. GI. His description indicates the GIs tended to go heavy on ammo and grenades.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/us_soldiers_01.shtml

Big Red 1 combat loads

http://www.ww2lhawebpages.com/THEFIRSTDIVISION/UNIFORM_EQUIPMENT_D-DAYUNIFORM.html

508 PIR rifleman's ammunition load (Fair use)

http://www.6juin1944.com/veterans/cruise.php

"1 M1 garand rifle - Belt loaded with 30 caliber ammo - 2 bandoliers of extra 30 cal. ammo - 2 fragmentation grenades - 1 smoke grenade - 1 orange smoke signal grenade - 1 20 foot rope - trench knife with brass knuckles - several days of K-Rations - canteen filled - clothing changes - first aid pack - water purification tablets - toilet articles - misc. equipment such as pencils, notebook - mess kit and utensils - and heavy duty belt and suspenders to help support the load."

Above has first explicit reference to colored smoke, confirms Airborne basic load of 4 grenades, and the smoke listed is likely WP, based on explicit loads reported by other paratroopers and enormous fraction of smoke being WP per production figures previously given.

Plus

"Following those items we were handed, after an appropriate demonstration, a grenade composed of some new explosive called Composition 'C' which had been manufactured by the British. A mass of clay like material about the size of a softball to which one added a wrapping of elastic sock like covering and then implanted a detonator. It was explained that we would carry this item in one of our pant leg pockets, and when this wonder unit was properly used against a tank, it would blow a hole in the side of the vehicle imploding on impact scattering metal on the interior of the tank, or it could disable the treads. I heard what sounded like a whoopee ! Several of the Sicily veterans who had witnessed Tiger tanks in action, expressed some doubts about the value of this new grenade. It appeared to us that we would be vulnerable toting this unit in our pant leg pockets."

Elsewhere in the text, we learn the gammon is issued prefilled, one per man, and his was carried in the right trouser pocket. There's also this item, carried one per every man in the squad.

"The final touch was the explanation of 9" Hawkins land mines to be used for road blocks by all units, these would be issued to all individuals prior to take off. They would be packed into our mussette bags along with our rations and extra clothes. We were reminded to insert the stiff cardboard piece between the case and the detonator to prevent premature explosions during transit to our destination. We would secure the mine in between rations to keep it tight. Jolly what !"

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Bump for BFC,

Found some goodies while Steve was away and wanted to be sure he saw them. Also, left a field trip suggestion on the GDF, probably page 2 by now.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

BFC,

Here's a great visual resource and more for hand grenades.

http://members.shaw.ca/dwlynn/tgrm.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

[sebastian]

I want the hex-grid back!

[Gryphon]

I don't know if this was asked before, but will there also be AI plans for QB maps? I haven't played CMSF QBs in quite a while, but I remember the AI being apathetic, and usually it would just sit around doing nothing.

Also, any word on flamethrowers and burning things?

[hoolaman]

I'm not that familiar with it but I think the AI on qb maps is an art in itself. MarkEzra has put in a huge amount of work fixing old qb maps and adding new ones for CMSF, so that situation should be much improved.

I'd expect the new game to be much better with these things out of the box than CMSF was.

[MarkEzra]

BFC has mentioned QB Maps will be created by designers. The Meta system will come further down the road.

I'm looking forward to participating in making QB Maps for Normandy. Like many of you, I'm a long time QB Player. I want maps that are attractive, functional, and fun. And so do you. We've learned a lot and are working with a clean slate. CM-N will benefit.

[John Kettler]

BFC,

Great groggery! The story of the Gammon Bomb/Gammon Grenade

http://samilitaryhistory.org/vol055ob.html

What they look like prior to "stuffing."

http://www.millsgrenades.co.uk/images/WW2%20Grenades/Gammons.JPG

Better preserved example in closeup

http://onlinemilitaria.net/shopexd.asp?id=648&bc=no

Also, in my surfing I came across a British? dealer in militaria, who had 29 glorious pages of grog projectile goodies, many of them WW II grenades and mortar bombs with nice color pics. Unfortunately, I suffered a major crash before I could bookmark it. Firm's name was _ & _ Militaria. I think one of the missing initials was an "H." If you can reconstruct the info, the site is a terrific visual resource.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Gryphon]

I wonder how easy it will be for infantry to close assault a buttoned tank in CM:N and use grenades such as the above, I can imagine that WW2 tanks were pretty blind to any approaching infantry, especially in dense terrain.

Also, now that borg spotting is gone I hope it will be a lot easier to keep the infantry alive as they assault the tank in question. Whereas in CM1 your units were immediately shot to pieces by every other unit in LOS.

[Michael Emrys]

I wonder how easy it will be for infantry to close assault a buttoned tank in CM:N and use grenades such as the above, I can imagine that WW2 were pretty blind to any approaching infantry, especially in dense terrain.

Probably why armor was accompanied by infantry as much as possible in dense terrain. Probably also why tank commanders were reluctant to button up. Lastly, why they also hated dense terrain and avoided it when they could.

Michael

[John Kettler]

BFC,

These were almost lost to us since the site was shut down, but the Internet Wayback Machine came to the rescue. U.S. Tests No. 1, 2, 3 and other grog goodies here.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080115205332/http://wargaming.info/armour05.htm

These are, IMO, must-includes in working up CM:N terminal ballistics, since these were carefully documented live fire tests, some using the full spectrum of 1944 antiarmor weaponry, against both target representations and actual German tanks. Test No. 1 was so shocking the results were prepared as a message but were never sent! (Fair Use)

"ETOUSA OUTGOING MESSAGE

ORIGINATOR: ETOUSA.

DATE: 24 May 1944.

ACTION TO: AGWAR.

INFO TO: CG AGF.

TEXT: Recent firing tests indicate twenty mm homo plate spaced six inches from fifty mm FH plate at thirty degree obliquity will defeat service velocity seventy-five mm APC M sixty-one at five hundred yards by functioning base fuze.

(signed Eisenhower)

Also tests witnessed indicated instantaneous functioning of HE filling in ninety mm APC M eighty-two does not permit satisfactory armor penetration performance on one hundred mm homo plate at thirty degrees at five hundred yards.

(Reference ETOUSA cable WL dash two one nine two and British ordnance board proceding number two six five nine four)

If tests in US indicate above deficiencies cannot be corrected immediately it is requested all seventy-five mm seventy-six mm and ninety mm APC shipped for ETO be inert loaded.

DISTRIBUTION: Ord O, G-3, G-4, FUSAG, SHAEF.

ORIGINATING DIVISION: AFV&W Section.

PRECEDENCE: Routine.

NAME & RANK: W. J. Reardon, Col, Cav, 1039."

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Here's a JasonC grade thread on comparative tank losses in June/July 44 Normandy, courtesy of Axis Forum. I think our Andreas started it.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=81359&highlight=pziv

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

BFC,

Here's some previously undiscussed info on the Nebelwerfer 41. For starters, unless it was one of Monty's morale preservation measures, the British were apparently unimpressed by the Nebelwerfer's blast and frag effects, though very impressed by the noise.

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt07/nebelwerfer.html

Why, then, if it was so ineffective, was it treated as an "Uncle" target when found during the Battle of the Bulge, as reported by an aerial observation pilot who was there? (Fair use)

http://john-lowrie.com/friendship.html

"It was there at Bruggerhof when the Battalion was on the right flank of the British 21st Army Group and linking up with the American forces, we first encountered the rapid and demoralising firepower of a German Nebelwerfer, a multi-firing rocket artillery weapon known as ‘Screaming Minnie’. Aided by aerial photographic data I quickly pin-pointed its exact location and the Nebelwerfer was designated an ‘Uncle’ target bringing into action all our available Divisional artillery to fire on this formidable enemy weapon. The next morning I was allowed to go in the Lysander aircraft which carried out a first-light reconnaissance over the Divisional front and witnessed the effectiveness of our artillery fire on this target."

And if the Nebelwerfer 41 was so deficient in blast, how is it that it was the Russians discovered the grisly phenomenon known as blast lung because of it? Page 2 from this recent very groggy treatise on combat injuries and their mechanisms.

http://www.bordeninstitute.army.mil/published_volumes/conventional_warfare/conventional_warfare.html

Nor were the Americans laughing off the Nebelwerfer at Kasserine, as seen in this telling statement from a Master's thesis.

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:x7sTRR7G7nsJ:www.2ndbn5thmar.com/tank/tirefs/DefeatKasserineCalhoun1988.pdf+nebelwerfer+effectiveness+data&cd=94&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

"A vigorous German armored assault, aided by the new Nebelwerfer rocket launcher

launcher, caused the inexperienced engineers to collapse just before noon. A full-scale rout ensued, and within a few hours the panic had spread along the Allied lines on both sides of the pass."

Page 30

23

This is a great thread, complete with several period U.S. intel docs on the Nebelwerfer. One of the most interesting morsels is that it could be fitted not merely with Fuze, Super Quick but also Fuze, Delay and had substantial capability against field fortifications as a result. News to me!

http://ww2f.com/weapons-wwii/28690-rocket-artillery-sherman-t-34-callipe.html

This gem, The Company Officer's Handbook of the German Army is THE German how-to tactical guide. On page 28 it tells us that because of accuracy issues, Nebelwerfer fires should never be delivered in close proximity to friendly troops. Believe I learned that the hard way, repeatedly, playing CMBO! Many more grog goodies in the sidebar.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/24291887/Military-Intelligence-Service-War-Department-Special-Series-No-22-Company-Officer-s-Handbook-of-the-German-Army-1944

A most interesting and unique report. Cromwells survive direct Nebelwerfer hits! From here, in Nick the Noodle's post. (Fair use)

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69460&page=3

"However, in Patrick Delaforce book on the 7th Armoured Division in NWE, Cromwells were hit directly by Nebelwerfer rockets, which carry at least 50% more HE, and uneffected. This includes a hit on the engine deck, which is not the most protected part of any tank."

Gee, could this have anything at all to do with the rocket motor being in the front and the warhead in the back?

This is a nice discussion of German artillery practices, including some groggy acronyms I've never encountered.

http://warandgame.wordpress.com/tag/weapons/

I close with a remarkable cutaway pic of a Nebelwerfer round--revealing the warhead had quite substantial walls on it, therefore should've been both a frag and blast threat. This is from the rocketry collection portion of the spectacular Udvar-Hazy Center for the National Air & Space Museum. Unfortunately, I still haven't found frag data for the projectile. Recommend you contact Dr. Gordon Atwater at APG.

http://www.nasm.si.edu/collections/artifact.cfm?id=A19890597000

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Bumping this to be sure Steve sees it, now that he's returned to the lists.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Michael Emrys]

Really, John. This constant cry for attention...well it's sad. Why don't you just send Steve a heart-shaped box of chocolates for Valentine's Day and be done with it?

Michael

[Lanzfeld]

Really, John. This constant cry for attention...well it's sad. Why don't you just send Steve a heart-shaped box of chocolates for Valentine's Day and be done with it?

Michael

Now THAT is damn funny.

[GonzoAttacker]

John's Threads always filled with detail as usual..... It has not changed for ten years... I usually read before Bed time.

Mark Ezra how you doing have not heard from you in a while looking forward to ETO work Have ideas for maps we can discuss as usual.

John will always get his time and is a good read for the non grognards and newbies. He has written at least two volumes of work if not more in the forum.

My First Post since I have been Back!

Michael "Gonzo" Gonzalez

[Franko]

I have the patience of Job. Too bad he was a dick wad.

[Michael Emrys]

I have the patience of Job.

You'd better give it back before he calls the cops.

Michael