how do you kill an Abrams?

[Javolenus]

Hi There,

Is it possible to destroy Abrams? If so, how? In my current scenario as RED, I've tried everything against a seemingly indestructible Abrams. So far, it has survived a minefield, off-map fire missions, several T-72s and a variety of AT weapons at long, medium and close range. I have now run out of ideas. Soon I will run out of men/vehicles/buildings/ammo. Would flicking it with a wet towel help?!

[phil stanbridge]

It's funny because I think the same when playing red. But they do certainly kill them - I've lost a few in battles against red, and have had several immobilised. I think it's more a case of 'how many', than 'what can' kill them. Although a single rocket doesn't inflict that much damage (unless they get a lucky shot) a constant flow of them can knock a tank out easily. That's what I have found recently anyway! Maybe group suppression is key?

[Lanzfeld]

I find the Abrams to truly be the first real "Uber" tank.

Gangbang it from multiple units and multiple sides...just not the front.

[Javolenus]

Thanks for the swift responses. I attacked this Abrams with 6 AT teams - 4 missiles hit and the tank survived unhurt and killed all the assailants. I then attacked with 3 T-72s - the Abrams killed them all. I then ordered all remaining units - about 30 squads armed with various AT weapons to converge and attack. The Abrams killed most - the rest ran away. In the end, I couldn't really finish the scenario so just kept clicking the end-of-turn button until time ran out and I got a tactical victory. Kinda funny and kinda frustrating at the same time.

[MikeyD]

We're going to have this same discussion with Tigers in Normandy

I've killed off a few Abrams with my 'uber' T55s by maneuvering for a close-in flank or rear shot. Yes, its almost impossible to do on most maps. You have to do it the way the Shermans did, one go left, one got right and one say in front. The survivng tank gets to make the shot. But its a good feeling to work your way around a building, put a round into the 3/4 rear of an Abrams and hearing that tubine engine spool down before the crew bails.

[taccovert4]

Most reliable way to kill an Abrams? 2 T-90s firing at the rear of the tank.

Best tactical methods for killing an Abrams?

1) Use multiple ATGMs from side angles at long range. The range will help keep your gunners alive during the attack, and you'll need side shots or rear shots to get reliable damage. Saggers probably won't do the job, you'll need AT14s or other good ATGMs for reliable damage quality. Also, the SPG9 has an advantage if you can get it into a 'keyhole' position. So long as the Abrams isn't looking at the spot its firing from, the recoilless rifle has a good chance of not being spotted while it fires its rounds. This gives you a better chance of getting off the 5-15 shots necessary to kill an Abrams. It's not really a matter of battering through the armor. It's more about firing enough times to get that 'golden BB' shot in.

2) Ambush the Abrams at point blank range with the 105mm RPGs. The RPG7 is good for dealing with Brads and Strykers, but against the Abrams it's going to find itself a bit outclassed. You'll want at least 2 105mm RPG teams, and 2 rifle squads to pull this one off with any sort of reliability. Set the 105mm RPGs up in upper floors ahead of the Squads, which should also be on upper floors on the same street. Draw the Abrams down the street (the most difficult part in some scenarios). When the Abrams is past your 105mm teams and right beside your squads (which should also have at least RPG7s), unhide all units and have them target the Abrams with everything they've got. At close range the Abrams won't be able to unbutton (or will have to button up). That will keep the most powerful MGs out of play, and make it engage each unit separately. The RPG7s will be firing straight down on top of the tank, giving them the best chance of a penetration, the Squads will be throwing grenades and suppressing the exposed crew served weapons, and the 105mm RPG teams will have near-perfect shots at the top and weaker rear armor. This can also be done with a Recoilless Rifle, though it is best to set it about a block away from the ambush zone and have it fire at a 90 degree angle to the Abrams' side armor. It is not a guaranteed kill, but it does give you an idea of what assets are necessary to take out a true MBT with the rather inferior equipment the Syrians must make do with.

Of course the best way to take out an abrams will always be with an airstrike, another Abrams, or a pair of Javelins that work properly. But then you have to play blue on blue......

[Javolenus]

Many thanks for these replies - very helpful. This was the first time I came up against Abrams, and it was a real experience! Now I'm better prepared, thanks to this info. As it happens, I went back and managed to destroy the Abrams when it nudged up against a building, thus reducing its available arc of fire. I attacked with 6 AT teams at various angles/ranges and I guess one of them got lucky, as the Abrams went down. But I've now got a very healthy respect for these beasts and will bear the above points in mind next time. Thanks again.

[Damian90]

One important info. All modern MBT's have frontal armor immune to almost all HEAT warheads (only biggest ones can do real damage, but such ATGM's are operated only by planes) and side turret and hull armor is optimised to give good protection up to 45 degrees of frontal arc hit, some tanks have also good protection against RPG's, older ATGM's and tank gun ammo over side turret armor at more than 45 degrees, one of such tanks is M1.

The bes way is just hit at 2/3 central and rear side hull, but still, heavy balistic skirts are mounted up to center of the hull, so older RPG's can have problem to perforate or damage tank there.

So try to hut rear of turret, engine area or top turret.

And this is the best way to disabel or even destroy any modern tank.

But be carefull if tank have additional armor like M1A1SA/M1A2SEP T.U.S.K. or FV4034 Challenger 2 (Enchanced), then side hull armor over it's full lenght have additional armor (in FV4034 also side turret) and RPG's or ATGM's can have problems with disabling tank, also rear can be protected by slat armor, so just be carefull. Such beast is more dangerous than tank without additional armor and can survive even several clear shot's in places where tank without addon armor should be disabld after one or two hit's. :-)

[Javolenus]

Thanks for this info Damian - that's pretty amazing and makes me even more wary of these monsters. Looks like dealing with them is a real art.

[__Yossarian0815[jby]]

One important info. All modern MBT's have frontal armor immune to almost all HEAT warheads (only biggest ones can do real damage, but such ATGM's are operated only by planes) and side turret and hull armor is optimised to give good protection up to 45 degrees of frontal arc hit, some tanks have also good protection against RPG's, older ATGM's and tank gun ammo over side turret armor at more than 45 degrees, one of such tanks is M1.

In-game however M1s are destroyed by frontal hits of the AT14. Also (in-game) frontal hits from the T72 are sometimes lethal.

[Wiggum]

;1177028']In-game however M1s are destroyed by frontal hits of the AT14.

You should add a "rarely" here or a "only on short distance".

[Damian90]

It depends where You hit, Lower Front Hull is very thick, about 550mm LOS and should resist 9M133 ATGM, glacis is angled at about 80 degree's but it can be perforated by such warhead, but lethal hit will be only over driver station, on both sides of driver station, there are fuel cells designed as additional armor, so they absorb hit, they also gives additional protection for side armor over that area. Also hit in gun mantle with 9M133 should be lethal, gun mantle cover is 500mm LOS thick but there are probably no advanced armor inserts, only something simple.

As for T-72M/M1 hits from close range, if they shoot APFSDS ammo then of course, remeber, for APFSDS ammo closer range to target is better range. Still Syrians probably have for their T-72M/M1's only old ammo like 3BM15 so at close range only front hull armor (probably, depends where You hit) and weak zones can be perforated, turret front is at least 880mm LOS thick with very advanced armor inserts.

But in the other hand, best way to use M1 tanks is long range firing always with front directed to enemy. I alays do it in that way and in campaign in 1.08 version I never lost any M1 tank... But of course when I have time I buy 1.21 or newer version with all modules and try again, maybe in older versions weak zones are not considered. :-)

Still weak zones in M1 are very small, so hiting them from more than 500m is a big lucky shot.

[taccovert4]

To agree with Damien....The Abrams, or Challenger for that matter, can sometimes be taken out by a 'golden BB' shot. I have seen it happen in both QBs, Scenarios, and the Campaign. I've seen the mighty Abrams get mobility killed by a RPG gunner that then turned around and failed to kill a Stryker at even shorter range. S%^& happens. Just remember, there is a major difference between a 'reliable' kill and a 'possible' kill. A T72 can KO an Abrams from the front. The russians weren't stupid enough to build an MBT that could not compete with the competition. That would be like building a Sherman while knowing that the enemy will be armed with nothing but Tigers. Used correctly, a T72 can fight an Abrams. The Abrams has a better chance of winning, but the 'golden BB' always exists. And remember, the second your entire plan hinges on that 1 M1A2SEPTUSK will be the second that an AT14 will hit it in its frontal armor and get a 1 shot KO.

[__Yossarian0815[jby]]

I don´t disagree with any of the above. CMSF scenarios tend to be short range and contain syrian T72 turms, so it isn´t that rare to run into situations where your abrams/challenger can be killed from the front.

[tyrspawn]

Hi There,

Is it possible to destroy Abrams? If so, how? In my current scenario as RED, I've tried everything against a seemingly indestructible Abrams. So far, it has survived a minefield, off-map fire missions, several T-72s and a variety of AT weapons at long, medium and close range. I have now run out of ideas. Soon I will run out of men/vehicles/buildings/ammo. Would flicking it with a wet towel help?!

two words: SIDE ARMOR.

[MikeyD]

One additional thing you can do is generously use your DShK heavy machineguns (if you have any handy) on Abrams. It's likely you'll be able hammer at hit for awhile before he finally spots your location (and you go BOOM). But until that happens you've got a chance of wrecking his optics. You won't be able to blind him (Abrams has too many backups for that) but if you can wreck his IR optics that'll make the difference between him being able to see you or not see you through your popped smoke.

[Javolenus]

Thanks for this. I replayed the scenario with all the above points in mind. Managed to take out two Abrams, one with a T-72 at almost point-blank (the Abrams rolled across an open street where my T-72 had an arc of fire), the other with combined MG and AT assets, firing at the side and rear. Phew, this was hard work but it paid off. Thanks again for all the info.

[Lethaface]

You'll get better at it over time. Several shots from T72's and T90's even at long range will at least render most spotting devices useless and likely do some more like immobilizing or even ko'ing the vehicle. However it is best to not attack Blue tanks from far away with Red, unless you can make an isolated side/rear shot of course. This because you practically have only one chance to hit it, after which the barrel will turn in your direction and you will be blown up. Hide any AT asset behind cover in such way that it will only gain visual contact with the enemy after it passed your unit. This will give you a probable first shot and hopefully a rear or side hit. Especially useful with RPG's hiding in buildings although difficult to do in turn based mode.

The only exception I have found is that on very, very long range (2500++ meter) the range some ATGM's have offers enhanced accuracy for the T-'s with ATGM's versus Blue tanks.

If the enemy doesn't have air assets or a vast superiority in infantry numbers you should be able to take out an Abrams out with most Red AT equipment. At least if you use each weapon in an appropriate way. Just don't think you can survive by staying in the same place or hoping to destroy a lot of Blue tanks with one unit . As soon as your ATGM / RPG / Tank fired some (or even 1) shots you should relocate or accept the fact it will die very soon. You could of course kamikaze the unit taking down as many enemies as you can. The latter might be a helpful tip to keep in mind while playing Red

In PBEM games I like to hide solo rpg-7 gunners in places I suspect enemy tanks to move in later in the game. Apart from the possibility to do actual damage, it will often freak your opponent out and make him much more careful, which you can then further exploit.

[ERISS]

Before the Abraham, Israel tank was the 1st "real one".

American Army must be the 1st killer of abrahams, as they destroyed immobilized ones they couldn't repair on the battlefields...

[Damian90]

Before the Abraham, Israel tank was the 1st "real one".

What do You mean? What the hell is Abraham? You mean M1? If yes then it is M1 Abrams, after Gen. Creighton Abrams... I hate when people doesen't know what is proper designation and make some strange names. :-/

American Army must be the 1st killer of abrahams, as they destroyed immobilized ones they couldn't repair on the battlefields...

The destroyed only that ones, that they can't evacuate from zones occupied by enemy and there was danger that OPSEC will be break and such things like radios, ammo, MG's will be used by enemy.

As for attacking M1's in game by any AT weapons, the best way is just not to attack from the front, You can immobilize it, destroy main sight etc. but M1 have very good hided and protected auxiliary sight, so it will be attacking, but of course there is a chance that some AT round hit small weak zone in front of a tank like gun mantle (still it provide some protection especially against HEAT it is good protection) or turret ring area, but hit probability in these areas is very small, so the best way is just make an ambush and attack side or rear armor.

[MikeyD]

I recall someone once saying if 'they' had had our equipment and we had theirs (referring to the Iraq invasion) the results would still have been the same. You hand Abrams over to an unmotivated conscript crew who have perhaps only fired two live rounds in their careers, and you hand T72s over to motivated seasoned professionals who know the equipment inside-out and understand combat tactics. THEN see which side has the ubertank!

[Sergei]

how do you kill an Abrams?

Give him a carton of cigarettes - the general had lung cancer.

[Damian90]

I recall someone once saying if 'they' had had our equipment and we had theirs (referring to the Iraq invasion) the results would still have been the same. You hand Abrams over to an unmotivated conscript crew who have perhaps only fired two live rounds in their careers, and you hand T72s over to motivated seasoned professionals who know the equipment inside-out and understand combat tactics. THEN see which side has the ubertank!

Yup I agree with that, technical data is technical data but crew is the most important part of the tank. But the most important thing is to not take tank as a seperate part and crew as seperate part of a system but both as integral parts of system. So when You have a great tank and great crew, then You have a really powerfull battle machine, it is also good when higher levels of command are also good. :-)

Ps. There are no such things as super tanks, when someone think in that way, well this is first step to make big mistakes.

[Ryujin]

I recall someone once saying if 'they' had had our equipment and we had theirs (referring to the Iraq invasion) the results would still have been the same. You hand Abrams over to an unmotivated conscript crew who have perhaps only fired two live rounds in their careers, and you hand T72s over to motivated seasoned professionals who know the equipment inside-out and understand combat tactics. THEN see which side has the ubertank!

I totally agree, improperly used M1s are relatively easy to pick off. For example I've played people very new to CMSF and the AI, they open the M1s up to be hit and killed by T-72s and RPGs. Killing an experienced player's M1 is a whole different task. The basics apply, but ambushing with side or rear shots becomes extremely hard if they're mutually supporting other units with the M1(s). Other units find contact and protect the M1 so it can kill what they find. That is always a though nut to crack as they just don't expose the M1s much and are looking for ambushes.

[Javolenus]

Thanks again for the info - a very useful thread for novices like me. I was interested in Lethaface's points about siting AT crews and relocating them - will definitely pick up on that.