Artillery absurdity

[tyrspawn]

Why is it that on every mission beyond the 3rd on the marine campaign, that the syrians can instantly call in massive amounts of artillery exactly on top of my position the moment I dismount from a vehicle? I thought the first couple of times this happened that they had already "zeroed in" the area, but then i realized its on every level beyond the first few. I love blitzing into an area and thne immediately getting bombarded by massive mortar spam (they are calling in effect on target 2x as fast as me). Syrian artillery has a massive delay, so how are they shelling me the moment after I move into a new position, and exactly when I dismount? In any case, you should be able to set your batteries to do counter-barrage. Makes me not want to continue the campaign.

The arty issue might be a 1.21 thing.. I don't know, since this is my first time playing the USMC campaign.

Also whose great idea was it to have a 50 minute delay between the mission start and when the attack force begins? What do you expect me to do, stare at the screen for 50 minutes? The game pauses if you try to minimize and it won't run in window mode. Milk Run and the preceding level have this issue. You are supposed to use the scouts to recce the area, but that's done in about 10 minutes.

And on the topic of milk run.. I don't really know what you're supposed to do.... as if I try to assault cross the field I get instantly bombarded with artillery.. for some reason, and if I try to move my vehicles in for a mechanized wave attack I get wiped out by reverse slope ATGMs at 900+ meters. If the artillery wasn't retarded I could quickly move across the field and establish a base of fire.

[Pandur]

Syrian artillery has a massive delay, so how are they shelling me the moment after I move into a new position, and exactly when I dismount?

that is weird, there are some changes to syrian arty/mortars but it still takes many minutes for the stuff to arive. in a QB yesterday i could call in 120mm with good syrians and perfect C2 situation in 9/10 minutes.

i think you drove into pre-planed arty missions , wich arive at around 0.5/5/10/15 minutes if there are any.

Also whose great idea was it to have a 50 minute delay between the mission start and when the attack force begins?

wut? wich mission?

wiped out by reverse slope ATGMs at 900+ meters. If the artillery wasn't retarded I could quickly move across the field and establish a base of fire.

hm, now without arty this is quiet bad. i used the mortars to kill the spotted ATGMs. i moved up the verry high ground on the far left of the map, into the houses up there with snipers and a scout team. from there i spotted most ATGM´s.

you should not cross the field with arty smoke, rushing into the ditch. in the ditch is quiet a lot firepower waiting.

[tyrspawn]

that is weird, there are some changes to syrian arty/mortars but it still takes many minutes for the stuff to arive. in a QB yesterday i could call in 120mm with good syrians and perfect C2 situation in 9/10 minutes.

i think you drove into pre-planed arty missions , wich arive at around 0.5/5/10/15 minutes if there are any.

wut? wich mission?

hm, now without arty this is quiet bad. i used the mortars to kill the spotted ATGMs. i moved up the verry high ground on the far left of the map, into the houses up there with snipers and a scout team. from there i spotted most ATGM´s.

you should not cross the field with arty smoke, rushing into the ditch. in the ditch is quiet a lot firepower waiting.

I know for a fact they are not preplanned arty missions. There will be an empty field... ill drive into it. THE MOMENT I dismount I get hit by a massive arty spam, and it has happened for like 5 levels straight. Why would the AI preplan an arty strike for a place where I haven't even moved yet, or made any indication that I am moving toward? It seems like anywhere on the map this happens. The AAVs are so poorly armored that i usually lose one, packed full of 20 guys, everytime I attack, to the relentless artillery spam. How do they even have so much arty sections still operational? They must have like 6+ batteries available, to say nothing of the FOs necessary to call it in.

As far as playing Milk Run...

Problem is, I guess the artillery carried over from the last level... and it was all empty by last level besides one 61mm mortar battery, which I used before the main force arrived (50 minutes in) to take out some vehicles. I couldn't see the ATGMs before they fired so I wasn't able to neutralize them.

[JonS]

I thought you had mastered this game?

[MikeyD]

One change with 1.20 is Red commanders can call in artillery as well as FO. That means a LOT more eyeballs watching you, waiting for an opportunity. If the CO has intergal unit mortars their call time isn't much more than Blue side. Between the increased number of eyeballs on the ground and intergal mortar units the artillery playing fleid has become considerably more even. Plus scenario desginers tend to throw in Veteran FOs even if everyone else on the map is Green. My last several games I've lost my favorite FO, sniper, and GMG teams to AI-controlled Red mortar fire. I'm not complaining.

[tyrspawn]

One change with 1.20 is Red commanders can call in artillery as well as FO. That means a LOT more eyeballs watching you, waiting for an opportunity. If the CO has intergal unit mortars their call time isn't much more than Blue side. Between the increased number of eyeballs on the ground and intergal mortar units the artillery playing fleid has become considerably more even. Plus scenario desginers tend to throw in Veteran FOs even if everyone else on the map is Green. My last several games I've lost my favorite FO, sniper, and GMG teams to AI-controlled Red mortar fire. I'm not complaining.

what do you mean integral unit mortars? I know if your observer isn't connected to the HQ there is a delay, you mean a red FO connected directly to the HQ?

Exactly how much of a difference does veterancy have on calling in missions?

[Ryujin]

what do you mean integral unit mortars? I know if your observer isn't connected to the HQ there is a delay, you mean a red FO connected directly to the HQ?

Exactly how much of a difference does veterancy have on calling in missions?

Integral(organic) mortars are mortars that are under the direct command of the formation in question. For example a republican guard battalion might include several mortars, these mortars are for "personal use" by the battalion and being part of the battalion, can be called in much faster, since the FO/commander does not have to get access to say divisional artillery, less talking and approval is needed to use them.

Veterancy also speeds on calling the artillery and the number of spotting rounds, a skilled FO can call in a firemission faster and more accurately.

I wonder if AI FOs can now call unit targets on moving vehicles? That being they see you vehicles approaching and start calling in the firemission and by the time you get to the fa r side of the open area they might be ready to start adjusting rounds on. Do you see spotting rounds or do they just come raing down, no adjust? If there are no spotting rounds, it's preplanned and the mission maker guessed what you would do and timed it.

[Pandur]

Why would the AI preplan an arty strike for a place where I haven't even moved yet, or made any indication that I am moving toward?

look, the AI does nothing in this case, pre planed arty strikes are defined by the scenario designer. you should have a look into the editor if you want to know more about how that works.

and it was all empty by last level besides one 61mm mortar battery, which I used before the main force arrived (50 minutes in) to take out some vehicles. I couldn't see the ATGMs before they fired so I wasn't able to neutralize them.

aye thats a bad move to ditch out all real arty modules and use up the rest to hunt vehicles with 61mm mortars, nothing to do about it at that point.

and yes you need to get the ATGM to fire at least once, but the important thing is to have guys close by so they also spot it after it fired only "once", and not more often

[tyrspawn]

Integral(organic) mortars are mortars that are under the direct command of the formation in question. For example a republican guard battalion might include several mortars, these mortars are for "personal use" by the battalion and being part of the battalion, can be called in much faster, since the FO/commander does not have to get access to say divisional artillery, less talking and approval is needed to use them.

How can you tell if a battery applies to this rule or not?

[Dietrich]

Integral(organic) mortars are mortars that are under the direct command of the formation in question. For example a republican guard battalion might include several mortars, these mortars are for "personal use" by the battalion and being part of the battalion, can be called in much faster, since the FO/commander does not have to get access to say divisional artillery, less talking and approval is needed to use them.

How can you tell if a battery applies to this rule or not?

True, there's no indication of an artillery asset's organic-ness while playing a scenario. I recommend exploring the TO&Es in the editor. Double-click on a formation; any artillery that shows up in the right-hand window is organic to that formation.

For example, when you "purchase" a HBCT battalion, you'll see a few 120mm mortar sections at the bottom of the list; these are the battalion's organic heavy mortars. M109 self-propelled 155mm howitzers are not included in the HBCT battalion TO&E because such are brigade-level assets (purchased separately). By contrast, an MEU has a organic 155mm howitzer battery. Thus an MEU's HQ-level Fire Control Team has big-green-plus-sign comms to the MEU's 155s, whereas an HBCT FSO has small-red-X comms to the HBCT's 155s.

[Ryujin]

To give an example of what Dietrich is talking about:

(ignore my copy paste mess up in paint)

Here's a pic of some TO&E, note the company 60mm mortars, battalion 120mm mortars, and the brigade howitzers that I add separate to the battalion TO&E.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2749/4102089446_be50b6e8a9_o.jpg

When I select a company FO, notice he has access to the 60mm mortars in the rifle companies with a big green plus for excellent comms/access. The battalion 120mms have a large yellow plus, because they are not from his company, but he has to get them from the battalion level.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2643/4101334285_e5c5e9dfe0_o.jpg

In this next pic you can see the brigade 105mms with small yellow plus, as he has to go way up to the brigade level to wrangle some 105mm fire.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2582/4102089432_2a625637aa_o.jpg

Notice how comms deteriorate when I select a random HMMWV, not FOs

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2785/4102105278_66df2ff4d6_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2737/4102105286_ce13d5f62e_o.jpg

I hope that helps explain some of what is going on with the communications, for syrians the difference in communications between organic assets and others is much more exaggerated. For example only really FO's can get to assets above the battalion level. If I throw in a battalion and some separate howitzers, only the observers, not even the battalion commander, have comms with the howitzers.

EDIT Quick test:

veteran Syrian battalion HQ calling battalion level mortars

4 minutes to send firemission

under a minute then for the mortars to start spotting

veteran Syrian battalion FO calling battalion level mortars

3 minutes to send firemission

under a minute for the mortars to start spotting

[Battlefront.com]

Thanks Ryujin. That was a very nice writeup of the differences. So nice, I have nothing more to add

Steve

[tyrspawn]

Thank you so much for your thorough posts.

Was/is there a manual for the game with all this information? I bought mine online and didn't get a manual (to my knowledge). If there is no manual, i'm seriously considering compiling one.

[Ryujin]

Manual for the base game is on the site

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_flippingbook&book_id=2&Itemid=223

Manuals for the modules are on their respective sites

I skimmed through the manual for a sec, funny quote that is ironically true ingame.

"For example, a F-16 wouldn't drop a 2500lb bunker buster on a squad or a truck"

[slug88]

There should also be PDF manuals in the directory in which you installed the game. Also, if you go into the Start Menu, find the CMSF folder, there should be a sub folder called Docs, which also has shortcuts to the manuals.

[Bigduke6]

I just did a quick battle involving Syrian Special Forces. Veteran and crack quality.

They had 82mm mortars. I'm not sure whether they were in direct support or what, as it was a quick battle.

6 minutes from call to rounds on target.

Frankly, for that kind of quality troops, I think that's too long. About 3 minutes would be right I think.

I think I can say it is a fact veteran or better Russian troops can, on a modern battlefield, using the same mortars, manage 3 minutes.

If they're in a hurry, and willing to risk misses, they can probably reduce call-to-strike time for in-unit mortars to about 2 minutes, but I don't know that for a fact.

If they're wired in - which they prefer if they're defending - I would guess the time would be reduced even further, but now I'm speculating.

[Ryujin]

I just did a quick battle involving Syrian Special Forces. Veteran and crack quality.

They had 82mm mortars. I'm not sure whether they were in direct support or what, as it was a quick battle.

6 minutes from call to rounds on target.

Frankly, for that kind of quality troops, I think that's too long. About 3 minutes would be right I think.

Not everything is on their end, those probably were not organic mortars, see my test with veteran Republican guard FO/HQ calling organic mortars, 3.5 minutes for the first spotting round to fall with the FOs. It doesn't matter how good your SF FO is if he has to deal with non-organic firesupport, then you get a bunch of other things mucking it up.

I think I can say it is a fact veteran or better Russian troops can, on a modern battlefield, using the same mortars, manage 3 minutes.

Syrians aren't exactly the same as Russians, it's not so much the mortars as the chain of command, SOP, and radios.

If they're in a hurry, and willing to risk misses, they can probably reduce call-to-strike time for in-unit mortars to about 2 minutes, but I don't know that for a fact.

You can always try calling emergency fire, except then you probably couldn't hit the ground if it wasn't for gravity.

If they're wired in - which they prefer if they're defending - I would guess the time would be reduced even further, but now I'm speculating.

Unfortunately, there are no Target Reference Points, which would be the fastest way, especially when defending.

[MikeyD]

Another thing to affect firing time is is whether Red's chain-of-command is in good shape. Whether Red or Blue, a hole in chain of command (missing Battalion commander for instance) can really slow down normally quick reaction times. So a green CO with a poor -2 commander contacting a low quality independent artillery unit can be very slow firing. An Elite FO linking to a +2 commander contacting excellent high morale integral mortars will drop rounds almost as fast as their U.S. counterparts.

[Battlefront.com]

As stated above, the time delay is not just how much time it takes for the guy on one end to communicate fire directions to tubes on the other end. There's all the stuff that goes on inbetween. The more organizationally distant the assets are, the more delay incurred.

If someone wishes to make the case that the Syrians are equal to the Russians in terms of efficiency at all levels, that will color perception in favor of shorter times for Syrian artillery. Our opinion of the Syrians is that they are not as good as Russians, therefore we make the times worse.

Steve

[Bigduke6]

Steve,

But doesn't that contradict your stated assumption, veteran = veteran etc., nationality notwithstanding?

As I said, it was a quick battle, there were mortars available, and I don't know from what part of the Syrian army TOE the engine decided to pick them from.

I didn't check red chain of command soldier by soldier in the battle, but as noted, it was a crack/veteran force. (Which is not common, as far as the game engine is concerned.)

Also:

- This was a Syrian defends scenario

- The size of the Syrian force was approximately a company

- This wasn't howitzers, this was a pair of 82mm tubes

- This was daylight, weather conditions ideal

Arguably, if one wants to be "realistic", under conditions like that it would be highly likely a Syrian command force would have run telephones and fired in TRPs. You could make a case that along the obvious avenues of approach it would be quite reasonable to expect call-to-shell times in a minute; at the end of the day infantry mortars are not cutting edge technology.

It seems, to me anyway, a bit counter-intuitive that a company of Syria's best soldiers, we're talking the guys that get to practice from time to time, who consider the job a profession, and who are propagandized and mentally groomed to fight, would require 6 - 7 minutes for a basic artillery call.

I think it might just be worth remembering that the Syrian commandos are just about the only Arab force, until the Hizbullah, that has taken on Israeli infantry and beat them. 1973, Mount Hebron.

I think Ryujin makes an excellent point, if there were TRPs in the game this discussion would be pretty superfluous.

Steve, if you want to argue the campaign scenario the game supposedly is created to simulate, excludes the use of TRPs by the entire Syrian army for the duration of the invasion, I'd love to hear the explaination.

[Ryujin]

Bigduke, there most have been something going on other than the skill of your troops. I've got response times of about 3 minutes for organic mortars out of veteran RG FOs, but under ideal comms and chain of command. So 6 minutes means there is something else going on. Did you have at least "small green plus" comms with the mortars?

By the way, I did have my FOs and their HQ in their BMPs since i just did a quick test mission, which may have help comms?

I did another test of ideal conditions, elite SF FOs standing next to their HQ. They also had excellent equipment, I don't know if that effects comms. The mortars were also elite I guess.

So under 2:30 to send, a little under a minute from then for the first spotting round to hit. They bracketed it with the second and called fire for effect long before the 6 minutes were up. So I'm sure it's not skill, high skill units with ideal comms seem to be quite fast. So it might be something with the radio equipment or maybe the mortar skill, I don't know. Of course TRPs and telephone wire would help mitigate that (I'd like TRPs at least, they don't seem to hard to do, but I could see an issue with how it seems you guys set up area targets).

[Secondbrooks]

This post is rant about how BFC seems to correct their flaws in game.

On TRPs. Yeah. Enough has been said.

Oh yeah. Syrian commanders finally can access to indirect fire assents. Yahoo.

From start Syrian indirect in every level has been laughably slow, i'm having 1.20 at the moment and how long it takes for organic 81mm mortars to fire for effect if firemission has been called by regular FO, in contact with CO? It takes 10 freaking minutes. It has been like that and even worse right from start and CMSF isn't most new game anymore. Thing seems to have improved by 1.21, but is there really a good reason why this has taken for so long?

I just don't get the ideology that flaws in US side gets corrected very fast (sure they are fast to prove flawed unlike Syrians). But for Syrians it takes time to correct anything quite important (rule of thumb seems to be about year)... if things are corrected ever.

EDIT: Damn! 1.21 patch improved just organic response times. Rest of stuff seems to go along old lines.

My experiences with new delay times goes with Bigduke6. While SF company is having Elite experience for everyone (mortar, FO included), +2 in everything, excellent equipment, gave 5 minutes response times for organic company 82mm mortars, when FO had contact with CO... I can somewhat understand long delays with divisional&regimental assents but Syrians simply can't be this slow with company mortars?!

[Yair Iny]

5 minutes is not a long time actually. If anything, the 2 minute US times seem a bit short to me. Think about it, what is being abstracted here into those 5 minutes?

1. Finding your exact location on the map, and from that the exact location of your target point.

2. Transmitting the information and making sure it has been received correctly (i.e. readbacks, etc).

3. Mortar crew needs to know their own exact location and figure out azimuth and distance to target.

4. Then fire spotting rounds and correct.

All in all, this could easily take 5 minutes in real life, even by well trained crews. I guess having GPS for both the requesting and the firing sides, helps a bit, so might some equipment on the mortar side of things that would help with azimuth (i.e. something better than a magnetic compass). So all in all, I could maybe see how if all things went perfect (i.e no transmission errors, or readback errors, etc), the US could pull off two minutes, but 5 minutes for Syrian crews who probably don't have GPS equipment, doesn't strike me as excessive at all.

BigDuke,

it was Mount Hermon, not Hebron, and Syrian commandos beating the regular (and small) garrison of the Hermon post is no big deal. They aren't exactly the cream of IDF infantry either. That notwithstanding, the Syrian commandos have a very good reputation in the IDF for basic infantry skills. This, however, has little bearing on their supposed fire integration skills, which is affected by doctrine, specific training and equipment.

[Secondbrooks]

Yair Iny: My main point is that we are playing version 1.21 when Syrians (being elite and in every other way the best) can get their rounds on target in 5 minutes. Still in 1.20 it has taken closer to 10 minutes. As a side note regular US team leader without any gadgets or theral training gets his company's mortars on target as fast as Elite Syrian FO in 1.21. Needless to say that in 1.20 and before US team leaders, heck even lowest kind of grunts are much faster. Anyone seeing anything odd in this?

Anyways to 5 minutes part. I'm not expert on FO stuff, but with general "wisdom" i'm having i dare to make few points on that list:

1. Finding your exact location on the map, and from that the exact location of your target point.

2. Transmitting the information and making sure it has been received correctly (i.e. readbacks, etc).

3. Mortar crew needs to know their own exact location and figure out azimuth and distance to target.

4. Then fire spotting rounds and correct.

1. They should probably already know their location (finger on map while moving, at halt pinpointing location). Target is different thing, it can be easy, it can be hard based on terrain etc.

2. Haven't ever sent fire mission requests, but basic structure of it doesn't seem to be too hard if one has been well trained for it.

3. They should already know their location. It shouldn't be hard to pin point target's location from map (from area in which they are expected to fire anyways) if they get proper coordinations from FO.

4. True. But point is that Elite FO and Elite Mortar gets into spotting round part in about 4 minutes.

If someone has more info and experience please do speak out.

[Blackcat]

Secondbrooks,

The mathematics of artillery and mortar fire is, indeed, not difficult. In practice it requires sophisticated technical aids or a fair amount of time to apply.

"They should probably already know their location (finger on map while moving, at halt pinpointing location)."

In the absence of a GPS finding one's exact location to the degree of accuracy necessary if one's initial rounds are going to land reasonably close to the target is a non-trivial task. A ten figure grid reference is necessary. Without such data many more spotting rounds are normally required.

The beef I would have with artillery in the game is that it seems to land too accurately too quickly. Five minutes for a well trained, fully-equpped mortar team (including a couple of spotting rounds) to bring effective fire down on a new target would not be unreasonable.

All the best