Syrian Mig's

[cabal23]

http://rt.com/Top_News/2009-09-03/russian-jets-heading-syria.html

Now they have to find someone to fly them. I would love to see them in the game. Would even the whole support things out a bit.

[Sergei]

Realistically any Syrian fixed wing aircraft or their runways would be destroyed within hours from the start of a NATO invasion, unless they were based on an invisible Zeppelin. I think MiG-29 itself is more of an interceptor than a ground attack plane, but some Syrian airplanes (Su-24, anyone?) might be a nice addition for scenarios.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Invisible Zeppelins are not modeled properly in CMSF. I consider the game broken without them.

On a more serious note, Sergei's right. There's just no real way that, what with cruise missiles, our own ground strike aircraft, naval gunfire, etc. etc. that any remotely serious amount of Red airpower would be extant more than a few hours after the invasion commences. Even if something did survive, the Coalition probably has enough aircraft on patrol to shoot down anything that does take off almost immediately.

[Thomm]

All that talk about how quickly the Syrian airforce would be decimated does not, IMHO, excuse at all the non-inclusion of Syrian air assets. BFC should look at what air assets the Syrians have, put them in the game and leave the rest to the scenario designers.

After all, you guys both write about how "after a few hours" the Syrian air force is destroyed. What about scenarios dealing with the "first hour", with Syrian helos hidden somewhere springing a surprise attack on, say, Special Forces that are on a mission behind enemy lines?

There may be not much more to it than adding a few icons and a few lines of data (this part of the simulation is hidden well, so I cannot tell how difficult it would be to add Syrian AGM/bomb systems). But I think it is safe to assume that a new vehicle would be an order of magnitude more work than that.

Best regards,

Thomm

[Field Marshal Blücher]

In that case, the player can use Blue air assets. No one knows what kind of aircraft it is if they're not using it!

[MikeyD]

Syria's got to look to the future. Some day they could have a small-but-annoying Iraqi airforce on their eastern border. Who knows who's going to be allies with whom ten years from now? Not every potential threat fields AWACs and stealth fighters.

I've got a short list of features/additions to badger BFC about before the CMSF title is finally put to bed. Access to Red airpower is definitely on my list. That's not to say my badgering them has done much good, besides perhaps getting them slightly annoyed with me

[Sergei]

Probably the main nuisance for Syria right now is not Iraq, not even USA, but Israel. What with their fighters bombers attacking targets along the Euphrates, apparently using the Turkish airspace.

[Yair Iny]

Syria knows it has no chance of matching the Israeli Airforce and seems to have given up on doing that. Instead they are aiming to increase their Air Defence capabilities by attempting to acquire S-300 (SA-10 IIRC), which Israel is trying to prevent by influencing Russia. As an aside, they have also seen the writing on the wall in regards to their chances in a conventional armour-vs-armour manoeuvre battle and are instead relying on ATGM and infantry, as demonstrated very successfully by Hezbolla in 2006. It would be fair to say that Syria no longer poses a real offensive threat to Israel. At best they could try a limited manoeuvre at the Golan heights, e.g. re-taking the Hermon and suing for a diplomatic solution from a relative advantage.

[-Pv-]

BFC has given unequaled determination in placing the most likely assets into the game for it's time period and location based on recent past (not future) equipment.

The likelihood of Syria getting ANY piloted aircraft off the ground long enough to make even one (let alone more than one accidental-chance, hidden, secret) attack which has the potential to turn the tide of the battle in SF is so remote as to not warrant the coding time no matter how small that effort might be. The game assumes complete 100% air superiority which is entirely believable given the last 20 years of US operations in that part of the world. It is also standard US policy with no evidence it's not possible in Syria.

Aircraft in the bushes also require infrastructure. That too will be gone within hours. Troops will go in after all air assets and their infrastructure are gone. If one secret air guy somehow shows up anywhere, all US ground operations would stop until again, all doubt is eliminated by another round of slate cleaning.

If there is a helo hidden in a barn somewhere, it still requires weapons, technicians, fuel, and tactical support. All those things get taken out also. How can the hidden helo guy know where to attack? How would he get there and survive, how unlikely would it be that they managed to pre-stage one or two aircraft who can instantly show up on the battle field unchallenged when we (the enemy) is determining the location of the battles. It would require an intense leap of unbelief.

In both gulf wars, nothing flew on behalf of the enemy by the time troops were within fighting contact. If they had, they would not have made it to the battle field and once there, would not have survived long enough to get off more than one shot.

Not even in Vietnam were enemy ground attack aircraft any significant factor and not since.

Maybe Iraq-Iran, maybe Iraq-Syria, not US/NATO. Not in the last 10 years.

-Pv-

[Paper Tiger]

I would really like to see RED airpower in the game so that I can employ it in the RED v RED campaign I'm in the early stages of putting together (Human Player controls a small battlegroup consisting of Syrian Mech Airborne and a couple of platoons of T-90s - equipment I haven't done anything yet with as BLUE).

[Apocal]

Kiowa makes an OK stand-in for Hind.

[hcrof]

Does a Kiowa carry ATGM's?

[cabal23]

hellfire and hyrda missile systems and 50 cal.. I think a Hind is much more armored than a Kiowa. But since that has no bearing in this game, go for it. I think all this talk of red air power has got me in the mood to create a Red vs. Reds scenario with substantial air power on each side.

All great comments and yes the chance of any air power existing is not likely. Perhaps in our temperate module we will have a chance to see air power make more of presence on both side.

[Michael Emrys]

Not even in Vietnam were enemy ground attack aircraft any significant factor and not since.

Not in Korea either after the first few weeks, and not especially important even then.

Michael

[SD Smack]

...small-but-annoying Iraqi airforce...

How about small AND annoying!

Steve

[Ryujin]

Kiowa makes an OK stand-in for Hind.

I'd say a Cobra would be a better substitute, the kiowa has way too little ordinance on it. The Hind has 6 pylons, 2 wingtip for ATGMs and the 4 inner pylons, usually for rockets, gunpods, occasionally more ATGMs, or even bombs. ATGMs usually are 2 to a pylon on older hinds.

So the closest match would be a Cobra with TOWs and rockets, as it has 4 ATGMs to a pylon, which would match up with a hind having 4 2x ATGM pylons and 2 1x rocket pod pylons.

Hind loadout

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Mi-24_4.jpg

[Apocal]

I'd say a Cobra would be a better substitute, the kiowa has way too little ordinance on it. The Hind has 6 pylons, 2 wingtip for ATGMs and the 4 inner pylons, usually for rockets, gunpods, occasionally more ATGMs, or even bombs. ATGMs usually are 2 to a pylon on older hinds.

So the closest match would be a Cobra with TOWs and rockets, as it has 4 ATGMs to a pylon, which would match up with a hind having 4 2x ATGM pylons and 2 1x rocket pod pylons.

Hind loadout

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Mi-24_4.jpg

I'm not sure Syria has the ATGMs associated with the Hind, at least not that I've heard. Of course, not saying I'm definitely right on that account, just I've never heard of it. Of course if simulating some high intensity Red on Red, by all means Cobras or Apaches right up.

[Ryujin]

Syrian Hind with ATGMs, maybe AT-6Cs (9K114) or empty AT-2 rails, hard to tell:

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=1681&u=11939012

generally hinds carry lots of rockets though, so a cobra with all rockets could work too. Turning down the skill should probably enough to get same tactical effects as a probably not too experienced Syrian crew with an older hind.