first Brit battle

[Javolenus]

Hi There,

I'm fairly new to CMSF but am hooked on the game. I immediately started playing the Brit campaign and scored a reasonably good victory on the first battle (see my post - New to CMSF Two Questions). Since then, I've had lots of good advice from the community and have also started reading US Army field manuals for extra guidance. I decided to start the Brit campaign again. Here's what happened in the first battle, second time round:

1. I reached the Alpha line and fanned out my Scimitars in a 'V' formation to spray suppressive fire across the compound. I kept my Inf. mounted but out of harm's way. When the first wave of reinforcements arrived, I occupied the Border Post with C2 and AT units.

2. I Sent a high-speed recce party up the right flank to the Checkpoint. After spraying with fire, I occupied the building with C2, AT and Sniper units.

3. I filtered some Scimitars and Mounted Inf. up the right flank to the Checkpoint and then occupied the structures near the Pre-Fabs. This was my attempt at a recce but I discovered virtually nothing.

4. When the second lot of reinforcements arrived, I mounted an attack on my left flank, focused on the 3 buildings in front of the Barracks complex. After suppressive fire, I occupied these buildings, using smoke to mask Inf. deployment.

5. Up to this point, I had almost no positive enemy contacts - only question marks. I didn't know what to do next. I seemed to be in control of half the complex, but assaulting the remaining buildings looked risky - lots of 'Kill Zones'. And so I called in off-map gunnery and blasted the Barracks and Admin block. I also called in gunnery on the Pre-Fabs but the shells all fell short.

6. At one point, I lost a vehicle to a (presumed) RPG but the crew bailed out. I sent a Scimitar over to shield the crew from fire and, moving both Scimitar and crewmen together, slowly got my pixeltruppen to the safety of the Checkpoint.

7. When the time limit was reached, I'd scored 692 points - a Major Victory. But I'd suffered 5 KIA, 4 WIA, 1 MIA and lost 1 AV. Also, I failed to find the document cache. My main disappointment was taking the casualties. But I was also frustrated that, although I had spotters, AT and snipers on roofs, in buildings, and even hiding behind terrain features, I lacked any hard info. on the enemy. Also, it was a shame that the Pre-Fabs survived, despite the fire mission. All my casualties occurred during the movement phase and I feel like I lost concetration a few times regarding covering fire and spotting 'Kill Zones'.

Well, I was just wondering how other folks deal with this scenario? Has anyone managed to win without any casualties? I'd be interested to hear other plans of attack.

Having read some US Army manuals, I tried to implement the following concepts: controlling the tempo of the battle, switching the focus of attack to unbalance the enemy. And after advice from comm. members, I also tried to mix caution with audacity, and to minimise casualties. Despite mounting several recces - both mounted and dismounted, I got very little concrete info re. enemy strength and unit types. In the end, the off-map gunnery saved me. Any feedback welcomed, as I'd like to learn and improve.

[phil stanbridge]

Hey mate, I failed this mission the two times I have played it now. Not majorly fail, but the result didn't sit comfortably with my virtual conscience

I find the Brit vehicles, and particularly the Scimitars vulnerable to small arms, so i try to fight using overwatch tactics. But for some reason, whether it be conditions, low light etc, I have to get them quite close to see anything. They are generally just out of harms reach, but not close enough to really be effective if you know what I mean. I can pound the fortifications and houses all I like but they soon run low on ammunition. So I tend to use them as advanced recon.

I also have issues with the warriors taking damage from small arms, so I tend to open them up early on and let the squads dismount from some distance. I try and make the best use of cover I can, but this sometimes (more often than not actually) ends in at least half the squad taking casualties. So that isn't great tactics.

The last time I played this I had 14 KIA and 8 wounded, with the loss of 2 vehicles. I had a squad hosed from point-blank by a Syrian rifle team who were actually behind a house, and not in it, much to my surprise! Pretty genius if you ask me. I will look out for this later. Also, watch out for the bloody mine fields!

This is quite a tricky mission for me, but there is another which is much harder, that urban town one, where you have to protect the police HQ. That is a 40 minute slaughter. I had 52 KIA.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

I haven't played the Brits yet, let alone this scenario but your casualties sound as thought they are in acceptable limits. You can't make an omletter without breaking some eggs as they say. Likewise I would be surprised if I fought a battle against a halfway competent enemy and took no casualties at all. Best I have done is 1 KAA and 2 WIA and I was probably just lucky there. I have been known to get a lot more people killed on occasion and that is with the USA. There are some scenarios that are actually quite difficult such as Allah;s Fist. With M1A2s against T-72s it sounds easy bur this is deceptive.

Watch out for RPGs They are more fangerous than you might think. During the First Gulf War a number of US M1A1s were actually knocked out by close range RPG shots during the night battles against the Republican Guard, The APC you lost. Was it by any chance hit near a building? If so, you might want to consider how close you want to let your vehicles get to buildings as these are good places for RPG teams to hide in or around. A favourite tactic of mine is to put RPG teams on roofs so they can get a good shiot at the roof armour of passing tanks etc.

One thing I would say is that, in the real wold, it is often difficulr to see the enemy as well so the game is being realistic assuming you are playing on the harder level which I assume you do.

I had a hard time with one or two of the orignal scenarios such as the one where you have to clear some insurgent types from a hospital compound. My first two or three attemprts were quite disasterous

You will need to dismount your infantry at some point, particularly to clear buildings and trenches. In buildings, if you have troops equipped with explosives try blasting your way in through a wall rather than taking a door if you think the building is well defended there. Large, multi storey buildings can be particualrly hard clear.

It is good to make use of off map air and artillery where you can but not near buildings like hospitals, mosques etc if this will lose you points (ROE again)

As well as army manuals it can also help to read accounts of actual battles. Learn from conflicts such as the Arab Isreali Wars, Vietnam, the Gulf Wars and Afghanistan.

One recent book I would particularly recommend is Attack State REdby Colonel Richard Kemp and Chris Hughes. This is an account of the Royal Anglian Regiment's 2007 tour of duty in Helmand Province 2007and has detail of many tactical engagements in the Sangin Valley . The book goes into considerable tactical detail at platoon and section level, and indeed could suggest plenty of ideas for scenaros.

[hcrof]

I can pound the fortifications and houses all I like but they soon run low on ammunition.

7.62 from a TARGET LIGHT command is actually quite good at supressing a building, even if it won't kill everyone inside. Just advance a squad up (using smoke if necessary) while hosing down every building that could hurt them with 7.62, toss in a few grenades (TARGET LIGHT, pause just outside for 5 seconds) and rush in. Immediately do the same again to the next 'room' and you should rush through the structure with few casualties. You will however run out of grenades very quickly.

When using machine gun fire I get the feeling that the enemy gets used to getting shot at and after a few minutes of supression they may start to shoot back again. I always hold fire until just before the assault to maximise shock value and to save ammo. The 30mm is best kept as a reserve IMO for RPG teams or other nasty suprises. Another way to use it is to not fire for a full minute. Just pump a couple of rounds into a building and move forward slightly, switching to TARGET LIGHT to keep the survivors heads down.

Also in mission 1 you have engineers. Use them!

When they blast a hole in a wall they will seriously suppress anyone on the other side and there are plenty of walls without windows in this map. This allows them some protection as they set their charges. I just worked my way down the lines of buildings, blasting as I went and had little problem with enemy resistence. My only problem was a lone insurgent RPG team which managed to damage a Scimitar, killing its commander before hosing down one of my fireteams, killing or wounding 3 more. They got plenty of 30mm after that!

SPOILERS

The info cache is found in a small house on the left. I believe it has a garden and may be labled as the commanders house. As it is a single structure, I used my scout teams to capture it while my engineers where dealing with the main compound. They then called down arty fire on the barracks. I wasn't going anywhere near that!

[Javolenus]

Many thanks for the responses - lots of good stuff to disgest. The book recommendation is also welcome and I'll check it out. The Target Light option and Blast option (for Engineers) are things I've yet to experiment with, so it's good to learn something about them here. Really useful answers - thanks again!

[Nicdain]

I played the first mission of the British campaign (Border Crossing) twice. The first time WEGO and I obtained something like a marginal victory (I don't remember the exact terms), since my casualties were high, especially scimitars destroyed by RPG, and moreover I couldn't manage to find the top secret documents (which, by the way, seem to change location each time the scenario is launched).

Then I saw tyrspawn's videos, I read the thread "new to CMSF, two questions" and I started to realize that my approach to the game was not correct. My main mistakes were: dividing forces, advancing too slow and without suppressing potential enemy locations.

So, tonight I decided to give another try to the scenario, but this time in real time. And as a result, I got a Total victory with 850 points! :eek: How I did it?

SPOILERS

I advanced with almost all the Scimitars in a wedge formation along the road (to avoid mines), with the Spartans and their dismounts following at a certain distance. At almost 300 m from Phase Line Alpha I started to pound the two building with all the Scimitars, while they were advancing (concentration of fire and suppression). As they got to the buildings, the garrison was almost eliminated or seriously suppressed. The two fireteams from the Spartans finished the remnants.

Then I advanced again with the Scimitar formation another couple hundred meters past Phase line alpha. At this time the first reinforcements (HQs) had arrived and I moved them towards Phase Line Alpha.

The next objectives have been:

1. the commander building on the left, taken again with the same tactics of firstly apply a group suppression with the Scimitars and then finish the job with infantry. Three of the Scimitars, during the attack to the commander building, have been employed in suppressing the buildings in the centre of the map, in order to cover the right flank of the other attacking vehicles.

2. Seize the two-story building in the centre of the map in order to obtain a high visibility position for the upcoming FOs. This job has been accomplished again by the same party of Scimitars/Spartans/fireteams with a pretty big amount of smoke.

By the time the Forward Observers had arrived to the two story building, all the area up to the Administrative buildings (excluded) was cleared or under suppressive fire.

3. Raze to the ground the barracks, the administrative and the pre-fab buildings with artillery. So approximately ten minutes of the scenario have been used for this preparatory barrage.

4. After the barrage on the barracks and the pre-fab buildings was finished (with amazing results!), and just before the administrative buildings started to be smashed by the third wave of artillery rounds, I launched the final attack to the pre-fab settlement using the Scimitars as suppressing force (minus two that I lost by RPG) and the just arrived engineers on the Bulldogs as the assault force. I had no fear of flanking because during the attack, the right flank (Admin building) was under artillery and other fire, while the other flank (barracks) was totally destroyed and also kept under fire by one lone Scimitar.

As the assaulting force arrived by the pre-fab settlement, the Scimitars started to area target the surviving buildings, while the Bulldogs dismounted the engineers at short distance from them. I ordered then the engineers to assault the buildings and, as they got inside, where they found the top-secret documents, the scenario ended, 19 minutes before the time limit: the Syrians had surrendered.

Now the biggest satisfactions I got from this scenario, besides the total victory, is the quite small amount of casualties: three KIA and four WIA! And the fact that applying correct tactics rewards with good results!

[Blackcat]

One thing for new players who don't have a military background may want to keep in mind is th effective range of weapons systems.

Scimitars and the like just don't need to get in close to do their job. The 7.62 GPMG is perfectly good for keeping heads down at 600 yards. Indeed when I trained on it, many years ago, we were taught to be accurate for supressing fire (getting all rounds from a burst on a target the width of three men) at a thousand yards and that was with iron sights. The Rarden Cannon is effective at much longer distances against infantry, its main draw back is the limited ammo carried.

PRG's aren't the most accurate of weapons and, especially the early ones, are not that much of a threat above 300 yards.

So, to support you infantry the scimitars, FV432, Spartans etc. should be as far back as possible whilst still haviing a view of the target area and, if possible, hull down.

[MikeyD]

Up to this point, I had almost no positive enemy contacts

I was surprised to read that line, considering how close you were by then. About that point I tend to stumble on that one unit hiding in that one house I neglected to supress which make my life very difficult.

It sounds like you were doing something even old hands tend to neglect. There's a LOT of machinegun firepower available to the Brits in that scenario but for some reason it gets underutilized. 7.62 will got through building walls at ranges 5.56 won't.

[TheVulture]

I was surprised to read that line, considering how close you were by then. About that point I tend to stumble on that one unit hiding in that one house I neglected to supress which make my life very difficult.

It sounds like you were doing something even old hands tend to neglect. There's a LOT of machinegun firepower available to the Brits in that scenario but for some reason it gets underutilized. 7.62 will got through building walls at ranges 5.56 won't.

That's how I dealt with the scenario. You have something like 20 vehicles with MGs mounted on them. I kept up a pretty continuous rain of MG fire just about every floor of every building with 200 m and LoS of my infantry. Area fire is your friend. And use target light - keep the HE rounds until you are firing at confirmed targets.

Just before I started the mission I'd made a post here mentioning the AI's tendency to bug out of buildings when taking heavy fire, so I saw the long building as a great rat trap that I could drive the Syrians along with MG fire. So before my men moved into the next building, it had a minute (or more) worth of fire from 2 MGs, while the next two (or even three) buildings along also had a single MG hitting them, just to make sure any troops driven out of building 1 were still taking more fire as they tried to run. With the intention of making them panic or rout.

Unsurprisingly, when I got to the end of the building, I found 5 or 6 depleted units in various states of disarray in the last few blocks, or cowering in the undergrowth outside.

Then it is just a case of remembering to use demo charges to blast through some of the doors with no LoS to the other side, and dropping some arty on the prefab barracks (a few line missions flattened everything rather quickly).

First time around I lost about 5 men and two vehicles to RPGs. On a later replay I think I lots only 1-2 men. Making the Syrians run the gauntled of buildings being hit by MG fire seemed to work well - they were all driven to the end, and a lot of Syrians were missing in action in the AAR. Being panicked and running in to a building where you are still receiving even more fire tends to get guys routing off the map.

I don't think my tactics would work in real time though. There was quite a lot of fiddling around with short moves and area target orders to keep the MG tunnel of death going, and organising lots of different vehicles area firing in different, co-ordinated places is something that you probably can't do without pausing. (And is probably rather gamey too in detail, if not in principle).

[Javolenus]

Many thanks to all you guys for these posts. I learned a great deal and can see where I made mistakes:

1. I moved my vehicles closer to buildings than I needed to in order to suppress them.

2. I overused main armoury on my Scimitars when I could have used Target Light to good effect.

3. I mis-used my Engineers, using them to assault buildings, rather than blast through walls - didn't even know you could do that!

4. While concentrating on the flanks, I neglected to occupy a tall central building, which may have offered good visibility.

5. I mis-used my off-map fire support by 'overcooking' a couple of targets, instead of precision-shelling half a dozen or so. This left my howitzers 'dry' when I still needed them.

6. I didn't see the long buildings as tactical opportunities (the 'rat traps' mentioned above) but as tactical dangers to avoid.

7. I tended to think positionally rather than tactically, and so missed details like LOS etc.

8. I also concentrated on Recce, as (playing on 'Veteran') all I had were Question Marks over possible enemy positions, rather than positive contacts. But these recce missions used up time without gaining results.

9. I didn't even think about mines!

10. Although I got spotters onto roofs, they were obviously the wrong roofs, as these teams provided no extra info and had limited LOS. My basic strategy was to occupy the Border Post and the Checkpoint, launching further attacks from these strongpoints, which, being at opposite ends of the compound, should cause the enemy trouble.

Anyway, thanks again. I'll replay the scenario and try to incorporate what I've learned in this thread.

[phil stanbridge]

Great posts thanks very much! Definitely food for thought there. One thing to mention, I play WEGO rather than real-time which has its benefits for novices like me. Is there any way to tell a vehicles main weapon how long to fire? Because if you use TARGET it will generally fire the main gun for the full minute. Does pause work in that respect or is that purely for movement?

I can see the many benefits of playing real-time but I would end up pausing the action so much that there is little point - plue there isn't any apparent way to rewind the action.

Reference the loss of an armoured vehicle in the first mission, I lost a Schimitar and a infantry carrier - one to a mine! The fool ran over the first mine, took minor damage, and insisted on carrying on! What a joke! lol.. I wish I was playing real-time at that point, as I could have stopped him. If the driver wasn't killed in action first I would have fired him. Second loss was to an RPG from some distance. I was at the barracks, and a good 300 yards away. Must have been a lucky shot but it killed my crew outright.

[Nicdain]

Actually a very useful thread.

Definitely what I feel I am missing when playing CMSF is a knowledge of the capabilities and common usage of the various vehicles and weapons. For example I advanced too close to enemy positions with Scimitars before opening fire while I could have done it from a far more long distance. Then I used HE rounds on suspected enemy positions wasting precious ammo, while I could have used 7.62 with "Target light" and save HE for reliable targets. Probably I also misused artillery, because I emptied both batteries just to level three groups of building. In real combat situations, I think that a massive barrage like that wouldn't be allowed to take a frontier post!

[phil stanbridge]

Yep, effective use of artillery seems very complex in this game. There is another thread on the subject but from what I can make out, if you want to hit soldiers within a building or solid fortification you use 'general' and aim it at the floor of the structure. If you want to hit troops in slit trenches or out in the open you use 'personnel' which generally airbursts. Armour is obviously aimed at armoured vehicles although unless it is 155mm it is somewhat ineffective against tanks which I suppose is what you should expect. The quality of the FO and the duration all play a significant part as well. Furthermore the FO units require LOS in order to accurately lay down fire. Indirect is a nightmare. So it isn't clear cut.

Digressing slightly, out of interest has anyone even seen an enemy tank unbuttoned?

[Drescher]

Is there any way to tell a vehicles main weapon how long to fire? Because if you use TARGET it will generally fire the main gun for the full minute. Does pause work in that respect or is that purely for movement?

Yes there is. Set a TARGET LIGHT command and give the unit a paused move command. At the next waypoint(presumable the waypoint you just set) give another command from the fire menu, face being the logical choice, target arc will also work. When the unit reaches the point, the new "fire" command will overwrite the old one.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Do think about the treats posed by mines and IEDs. They will cause casualties and could potentially be used to force the opposition into killing zones. Artillery fire is a threat although I was surpised that there seems to be no provision for Counter Battery Fire at off map targets. I guess you cannot have everything :-)

[MikeyD]

I've always thought that counter-battery fire should be assumed when the scenario designer purposefully gives Blue or Red only limited access to artillery. If you fire a few rounds then run out you might assume that's because your battery's being targeted (outside of view of the player, of course). That's my rationalization anyway.

[JonS]

Yep. Every part of the CB process happens well off the CM battlefield, therefore CB has no place in CM.

[Dietrich]

I have yet to play a PBEM scenario in CMSF, so I'm always against the AI (95% of the time Red AI). Most scenarios in which Red is provided artillery from the outset usually involve barrages from multiple sections on seemingly random spots on the map somewhat near the Blue starting zone(s) which have the effect more of temporary area denial than of an actual threat. (A notable exception to this is "Rahadnak Valley Search".)

As soon as Red spotting rounds start falling (though the rounds' CEP is so wide that it can be hard to gauge where they're actually aiming for), I displace my troops (whether on foot or aboard vehicles) 200 to 400 meters away and thus suffer few casualties from artillery.

And besides, isn't counter-battery fire outside the jurisdiction (so to speak) of the battalion- and/or company-level commander? Hence no "engage counter-battery fire" command.

[MikeyD]

One thing to note about this discussion is the surprising lack of 'gamey' advice given. No 'hug the edge of the map' suggestions, no taking advantage of a AI oddities. No "health crystals hidden under the waterfall" game secrets. The discussion has been mostly clean infantry assault tactics. The closest I can see to 'gamey tactics' is using engineers to blow up stuff instead of bothering to assault, but even that's a perfectly valid real-world approach.

[theFightingSeabee]

I agree MikeyD. These guys don't want to 'beat the game' as much as they want to win a realistic battle using sound tactics. With this frame of thought, the game becomes a simulation. I don't care if I beat a mission as much as I do knowing (or at least believing) that I could take command of company of soldiers and win the day. That's how I see it anyway. Very cool!

To the newer players... many of these 'rules' can be broken. For example, you don't always want to not let your vehicles carry troops. One strength of the Stryker is being able to take troops to where they can kill the enemy before they can even prepare to deal with them. Sometimes you might want to drive a squad FULL speed right up to a building, pop smoke, and then dismount and assault, or rush them to a flanking position. It's up to you how to use your assets. So have fun and try not to die too much!

[Javolenus]

I just want to agree with the comments above. I want to win by applying realistic tactics. For me, the 'sim' aspect of the game is the attraction, although, having never been in the Army, let alone in action, I've no idea how accurate the game really is. But, in a computer environment, it seems to me that novices can at least get an idea of tactical doctrine and how to apply it. I look on it as learning something new.