New RED units for NATO module

[Alex]

New Syrian units for NATO module.

The NATO module’s release date is getting closer and many already can’t wait to try out those great (judging from the screenshots) new toys that will give us German, Canadian and Netherlands’ armies. However, the lack of information about new Syrian forces is disturbing, and looking at already released British module, these worries are getting stronger. Of course, the Syrian army is already in the game and is quite detailed, however I would like to make a few suggestions about adding new forces Syrian forces/improving them. Also I will give some arguments for this.

Special forces

Special operations company

Company’s personnel - 91 men.

Company’s transport - 11 UAZ469

+ two mortar crews

Armament:

AK/АКS-74 - 60.

GP-30 - 10.

AKS-74U - 11.

RPK-74M - 9.

PM - 9.

SVD - 2.

RPG-29 - 9.

82mm mortar М1937 - 2.

New sections:

As we can see, because of the way the company is armed, the effective distance of fire at enemy infantry does not exceed 500m (RPK-74/SVD), and the best density of fire will be at distance of no greater than 350-400m (the distance of fire of AK/GP-30). However, the main principle of special forces is to “hit and run”, which means to act from the ambushes. During this sort of combat, special forces must in small amount of time make the maximum effect at the distance which is optimal for suppressing enemy and then fall back. The best way to achieve this is to use main machine guns, however, in CMSF Syrian special forces don’t have such weapon. In Soviet Union and now in Russia PKM machine gun usually was part of the SpecNaz units’ armament, the situation is similar in other armies of the world also.

So, the suggestion itself looks like this:

Add two PKM crews to Special forces company, which will be directly controlled by company’s commander, that is, to make them separate from any of 3 platoons. Every MG team must have two members, one will be armed with 1 PKM and the other with 1 AK-74, the ammo for PKM must not be less than 500. Such increase of the number of members in company won’t need any additional transport, because at the moment there are 4 free seats.

New armament:

I already mentioned the question about disposable grenade launchers that, as I think, they should be more widely used by Syrian forces. But I was always getting the answer from Steve that Syrians has got only very small amount of those. I tried to make a little research and asked Israelis at Russian-speaking military forum www.waronline.org – there are a lot of members who currently serve or already had served in IDF. There I got a short, but clear answer: “yes, Syria has got RPG-18, as well as RPG-22, RPG-26 and RPG-27 and uses them for their main purpose”. Such answer, as I think, points out that:

1. A wide specter of disposable grenade launchers indicates that they are more common in Syrian army than in the game, because it’s hard to imagine that Syrians give such powerful weapon as RPG-26/27 to AT-3 or AGS-17 crews. This weapon is more suited for mobile, better trained strike groups, such as special forces.

2. Disposable grenade launchers are being used by Syrians in similar way as any other armies, that is, combat infantry units use them. Of course I think that the number of disposable RPGs in Syrian army is less than in Soviet army, but in Soviet army every company of almost every infantry element according to TO&E had at least 60 such grenade launchers.

Having in mind all this, I’m suggesting to give RPG-26s and RPG-27s to special forces companies, 1-2 weapons to every squad, or at least 1 to HQ squad.

How about connecting the type of grenade launcher with “Quality” parameter?:

When it’s:

“Poor” - none

“Good” – RPG-26

“Excellent” – RPG-27

Also, as an alternative, when “Quality” is "poor", give 2-4 RPG-26/27s instead of RPG-29 to rifle squads, or maybe RPG-7D against RPG-29.

Also I think that UAZ vehicles must have at least small arms ammunition (5,45 mm), but even better if there will be also some ammo for GP-30 and RPG-29.

Airborne forces

Mechanized Airborne company is one of the best fighting units in the game thanks to BMP-3s, however infantry airborne battalion looks very weak. Its TO&E and armaments are almost identical to structure of Soviet VDV battalion, however Soviet airborne was completely mechanized and had BMD-1/2/3 vehicles, as a result 1 soviet VDV company had a lot more fire power than the Syrian battalion. So, Syrians must compensate this by adding heavy weapons to this type of forces – I mean, MMG and HMG and automatic grenade launchers.

Infantry battalion

Total in battalion:

Men in Airborne battalion - 316.

Transport - none

Airborne battalion armament:

АК/АКS-74 - 185.

GP-30 - 28.

АКS-74U - 86.

RPK-74М - 13.

PM - 14.

SVDS - 18.

RPG-7D3 - 31.

Heavy weapons in infantry Airborne battalion:

ATGM Kornet-E - 2

Recoilless rifle SPG-9 - 2.

Mortar 82mm М1937 - 12.

New guns/sections:

As we can see, the effective distance of fire of such company isn’t longer than 500m (RPK-74/SVD), and the best density of fire can be achieved at the distance no greater than 200-350m (АКS74U/АК74/GP30). However, Airborne are similar to Special forces n their role: they must “hit and run, also they mission is to make swift attacks at the objects of high importance in the enemy rear. To achieve good results, Airborne must have a lot of firepower, and the Syrian battalion in this game lacks it.

I’m suggesting adding to every rifle foot Airborne company heavy weapons platoon that has such weapons in its armament:

3 PKM

2 DShK* x 3 members.

1 AGS-17 x 3 members. (87 VOG-17)

This will have a great effect on their firepower, but won’t make them less mobile.

* Instead of DShK it would be better to make NSV machine guns as they are lighter and more effective.

Also because of already mentioned reasons I’m suggesting adding to rifle sections disposable grenade launchers RPG-18/22 (2 such weapons would be enough for a squad).

When “Quality” parameter is:

“Poor” – RPG-18

“Good” – RPG-18/22

“Excellent” – RPG-22/26

I want to note that in Soviet Union only Airborne company (!) had UP TO 70! RPG-18/22.

New devices.

Airborne forces have a lot better equipment than any other Syrian forces in the game, except Special forces, but nevertheless I want to suggest: when “Quality” is “Excellent” in every rifle squad (where there’s no NV) give the leader 1 NV device NSPU-1, this will allow a better spotting of the enemy. However because of the quality of NSPU-1, night fighting capabilities will still be far behind from special forces’ capabilities.

Mechanized airborne company on BMP-3s

According to Soviet TO&E BMP crews in mechanized Airborne companies had such weapons:

Driver – 1PM and 1 АКS-74U

Gunner - 1 AKS-74

I think that it would be logical to arm Syrian crews in similar way.

Also as with infantry Airborne companies, every squad should get 2-4 RPG-18/22/26 (by putting them inside of BMP-3).

Republican Guards.

Republican Guards are elite Syrian forces, this means their equipment and training are much better, than those of the usual forces. It is made this way in CMSF, but minor points can be tweaked.

New armament:

As I already have mentioned for several times, I suggest to put RPG-18/22 in every BMP-2 (1-2 will be enough).

When Quality is:

“Poor” - RPG-18 or maybe none

“Good” – RPG-18

“Excellent” – RPG-22

New equipment

When “Quality” is “Excellent”, give 1 NV device NSPU-1 to every platoon leader, it will let a little bit easier to detect enemy units. But it won’t make a huge difference, and will still be worse than special forces or US forces.

Recon forces in Syrian army

In every army in the world only best serve in recon, they have a better training than the usual soldiers. This means their skills are higher than the usual infantry soldiers’. Because if this, I ‘m suggesting to make by default Skill level of recce forces +1 in comparison to other troops in combat formation. As I said, recon troops are trained better so it’s logical to give a marksman skill to the guy with SVD. Also it’s logical to have one guy with grenade launcher skill at least in HQ section.

Recon Syrian forces on BRDM-2

In CMSF game such forces consist of HQ section, 1 recon squad and 3! BRDM-2 vehicles. Why there is only 1 recon squad instead of two, I have no idea, moreover that there is one “empty” BRDM-2.

Because of that I’m sure that this is what must be done:

Add 2nd recon squad

New weapons

Usually recon forces act separately from the main body, which needs to have a capability to defend themselves from various dangers on the battlefield, from enemy armour – as well. That’s why I suggest putting in every BRDM-1/2 vehicle RPG/18/22 (1 is enough).

When “Quality” is:

“Poor” – RPG-18

“Good” – RPG-18

“Excellent” – RPG-22

Also I’m sure that at least in one vehicle of recon platoon must be RPG-7/16, this is very true when we’re speaking about BRDM-2 which has shots for RPG-7, but there is no RPG-7 at all?..

In Soviet Union in recon platoons there were AT soldiers armed with RPG-7/16 and disposable RPGs.

I understand that Syria is not Soviet Union, but and RPG-18 it's not nuclear warhead.

New devices

As I said, recon forces act separately from main force’s body, this is why they must be stealthy. To achieve maximum stealth, they often act at nights. But in game none of the recon Syrian forces have NV goggles, which is not logical.

I suggest:

when “Quality” is:

“Poor” – none

“Good” – 1 NSPU-1 for platoon commander

“Excellent” – 1 NSPU-1 for every squad commander; 1 NV-binocular for platoon commander; 1 NSPU-1 for SVD shooter.

Insurgents

To improve capabilities of these forces in game (with references to similar factions in the real world), I suggest this:

New sections:

It would be nice to have a pick-up with automatic grenade launcher mounted on it, it will greatly improve fire capabilities of the insurgents.

In this game, insurgents have heavy weapons mounted on Toyotas, but their principle is to act fast from ambushes, and it’s difficult to hide such a big vehicle in the game (and in real life also). That’s why it would be nice to have dismounted DShK, SPG-9 and AGS-17 as a separate units, and as well as:

I. Heavy AT group

1 х HQ squad – 3 members. (3 АК)

2 х SPG-9 team – 4 members. (3 АК, 1 PM, 1 SPG-9)

II.Heavy weapons group

1 х HQ squad - 2. (2 АК)

2 х DShK team - 4. (3 АК, 1 PM, 1 DShK)

1 х AGS-17 team - 4. (3 АК, 1 Pm, 1 AGS-17)

Maybe and some another combinations.

Judging from reports from various hot spots all over the world – from Afghanistan, Palestine, Iraq, Lebanon – it seems that insurgents widely use mortars.

Mortar support

III. Mortar platoon

1 х forward observer – 2 members.(commander and radio operator) (2 АК) (binoculars)

2 х 2 х 82mm mortar crew (М1937)

IV. Mortar section

1 х forward observer – 1 member (radio operator) (1 АК) (binoculars)

1 х 2 х 82mm mortar crew (М1937)

Maybe, it is better to make forward observers as part of bigger teams, maybe that consist of 4-5 men.

Also, it would be interesting to let spies call in artillery support.

New weapons

On that Israeli forum that I already have mentioned I also learned that during last war in Lebanon Hizbullah fighters also used disposable М72 LAW rocket launchers (they probably got them from Lebanese army warehouses), which is why it is OK, imho, to give this weapon and RPG-18 to Syrian insurgents (and not only to AT-3 crews). Of course, the number of these systems must be limited and only when “Quality” is “Excellent”.

Syrian insurgents could also have some small numbers of GP-25/30 under-barrel grenade launchers, when “Quality” is “Excellent”.

P.S. I understand that Syrian army has a lot less disposable grenade launchers than Soviet soldiers had back in the days, and I tried to take this into account, I’m suggesting to give disposable grenade launchers only to elite forces and in smaller quantities than Soviet Army had.

It is possible that somebody will reply that Syrians don’t need disposable grenade launchers when they have RPG-7 in every squad, but my suggestions aren’t fantasies, also, Soviet soldiers had not only RPG-7 in every section, but also up to 6 disposable grenade launchers. Also, nobody argues why US soldiers in the game have not only 4 AT-4(M-136), but also whole Javelin in every section.

Also, when I say NSPU-1 and night vision binoculars, I don’t mean the different 3D mdoel, but different specifications, such as its effective distance.

New units

Also of course I would love to see new units for Syrian army in this lovely game. These could be:

ZiL-131 or Ural-4320 trucks (for infantry without BMP/BTR), also GAZ-66 for airborne forces. It's not only scenery, but also more mobility and ammo repository.

UAZ with roof (“HQ”) for forward observers and HQ units. For example, Brits have a lot of versions of their Landrover in the game.

Static guns:

ZU-23-2 guns.

Also ZU-23-2 mounted on truck for all types of forces (that has it in their arsenal)

Anti-tank guns for territorial defense forces (often not very useful, but sometimes it can be very dangerous)

2А19 (Т-12) "Rapier" 100mm.

S-60 57mm – judging from open sources, Syria has not less than 600 such guns (which is not a small amount).

Also, the Syrians probably aren’t opposed to use these types of weapons, if we look how many of them Syrians have.

And of course, the lovely ZSU-23-4 “Shilka”, which was extensively used in Afghanistan and both wars in Chechnya as infantry support weapon against ground targets.

---

These suggestions were made by members of Russian forum http://cmbb.borda.ru/

Please forgive our far from perfect English.

To prepared this suggestions was used SCMF/USMC v1.10, and it can have some mistakes with company/battalion personnel

[Bolteg]

Co-signed.

[Wiggum]

Wow, nice post Alex !

Battlefront really should read this !

[JohnO]

Wow, nice post Alex !

Battlefront really should read this !

I posted a link to this post at the Skunkworks so that Steve will see this and reply when he has the chance. He's been pretty busy with, you know what.

Alex, those are some good ideas.

[Thomm]

Good post, Alex!

Best regards,

Thomm

[hcrof]

These are great suggestions Alex. Just throw in some RPO's as well and I will be a very happy man with the next release!

[Alex]

2 JohnO

Also I hope, that Steve will see and it thread about "starshells"

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=89263

and this http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=89074 - 1.21 ETA

;-)

[flamingknives]

While I would like to see new red units for NATO, I am having difficulty understanding why some of the above organisational changes should be made.

The justification, as far as I can see it, is that "I would like additional firepower" and not any kind of reference to what the Syrian organisation actually is.

More, and more flexible utility vehicles would be good, for sure, plus ammo supply.

The biggest bugbear is that currently PKM teams cannot acquire more ammunition.

[Battlefront.com]

Alex,

Thanks for your thoughtful post. However, as I explained in another thread... we created the Syrian Army in CM:SF based on specific, non-public information. We only improvise when we are sure something is missing and can not find good information. This is not the case with the Syrian Army. The information we received was quite detailed and very, very specific to the Syrian forces as they are actually organized in real life. We are satisfied that no organizational changes are needed unless someone presents us with information which is superior to the information we used.

Remember, we do not make "fantasy" games. There are many short comings in the Syrian organizations and equipment. Those are, to the best of our knowledge, realistic. "Fixing" these deficiencies, by adding things people want to have instead of the things the Syrians (likely) actually have, would be a big mistake. It undermines realism and opens the door to "fixing" anything that people can think up.

As for armaments, the information we received specifically stated that the Syrians do not have a large quantity of disposable RPG-18s. So we were quite careful about how they were distributed. As for weapons in Lebanon... Syria arms Hezbollah, not the other way around. Captured/stolen/black market items that Hezbollah has at their disposal, within Lebanon and intended for use against Israel, are irrelevant to CM:SF.

We are far more flexible with the organization of Syria's Unconventional forces because we invented them We do intend on making new formations for NATO.

We've had very long discussions about Syria's stocks of AT and AAA weapons. The majority of the AT guns are no longer in service. The ones that are in service are in fixed positions facing Israel. We do not think they would be repositioned as they are largely useless these days. AAA weapons are not something we have prioritized because they aren't likely to be effective in the game. Since there is currently no support for such weapons we don't have any plans to add them.

Steve

[Smaragdadler]

...We are far more flexible with the organization of Syria's Unconventional forces because we invented them We do intend on making new formations for NATO...

Steve

UnCon update with NATO-modul. Now it's official.

[Alex]

2 Steve

Yes, many things that I suggest it's only my assumption, and I do it based only on a soviet structure and on a logic. Many, but not all.

I wont to ascent only on 5 moments:

1. Disposable grenade launchers - Israelis sad, that Syria have in service RPG-22/26/27 not only RPG-18. It's not 100% argument, but it's something. I just don't understand for what you do RPG-18 in game, it's real syrian TO&E says that AT-3 and AGS-17 crews must have RPG-18?

2. Yes your structure of Syrian army is based not on some fantasy, but not all clear for me. For example: why syrian airborne battalion (or all airborne regiment) don't have recon company or platoon? And i also don understand what sort of missions airborne battalion can do Independently, without heavy weapon?

3. How you can so assured that syria don't have so many worked NV (NSPU-1 or some else) to equipped they recon units or some special forces? I heard here that syria have so old NV devices, that they already not works, but I can say, that russian army too have some very old NSPU in servis and it works. I don't say, that all syrian troops mast have NV, but some elite subdivisions can have same more.

4. Why recon SVDshooter cannot be a marksman? And why recon units must have simply for others skill level?

5. Insurgents - That wrong this my suggestions? the insurgents don't have some clear structure, they can have all that they could.

I wrote long post this many interesting suggestions, but I'm afraid that you will don't attention watch on it, only because it have some bothered moments for you.

And bay the way I also want that CM game was much mo closer to reality not to fantasy.

P.S. I'm not big Arabian lover, or I don't have maniacal ideas, that soviet it's the best in the world, I only want do this game better ;-)

[Alex]

AAA weapons are not something we have prioritized because they aren't likely to be effective in the game

But what kind different between SPG-9 with 5min time to deploy and stationarity AT or AAA gun. I know, that you'll change SPG deploying time, but it was so. AT/AAA gun also may be move away to another position for 5 mints. And ZU-23-2 also can be mounted in to the truck, and it will be a powerful weapon. Maybe you don't think so in US, but in Russia we know it :-)

If someone think, that ZU-23-2 is not dangerous weapon, look this -

[Apocal]

And ZU-23-2 also can be mounted in to the truck, and it will be a powerful weapon. Maybe you don't think so in US, but in Russia we know it :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYdHWEpoD-Y

[Bolteg]

Apocal, you could put any vehicle in this scene from Generation Kill - be it SPG-9, AGS-17 or even BRDM-2. Is it easy to kill while having absolute air superiority? Yes, it is. Do US soldiers and marines have air support every mission in the game?.. No, you say? So, if SPG-9 or ATGM can cause some heavy damage in the game to blue forces, why can't fixed ZU-23-2 or even a guntruck with ZU-23-4, or better yet, Shilka cause even heavier carnage?

Photos of various guns, HMGs and AAA mounted on trucks in Afghanistan and Chechnya http://otvaga2004.narod.ru/otvaga2004/wars0/wars_15.htm

Article about ZSU-23-4 Shilka used in wars, in Russian, but with photos also.

http://otvaga2004.narod.ru/otvaga2004/wars1/wars_02.htm

Russian guntrucks http://otvaga2004.narod.ru/publ_w2/guntrucks.htm

These things work and were and are being used in anti-infatry roles.

Article with a lot of photos showing ZU-23-2 used in anti-infantry role http://pvo.guns.ru/zu23/zu23_btv.htm

Also, Apocal, if you want to play in such way (posting a link to a video, suggesting that all this equipment will be easy pray for Cobras and Apaches), I raise your bet: http://pvo.guns.ru/pzrk/igla_s.htm

[Apocal]

snip

I was saying we know how effective AAA used in the ground-role is.

[Alek]

Old kind "Generation Kill"

It very much and very realistik source

Especially to me I love sigh - as the American soldier bravely stay on roads and looks in binokular

It is a fine picture :

However in a film is action of a machine gun of 12,7 or 14,5 mm - in the best

But not ZU-23-2, It has 190 grammes warhead a shell and speed of shooting from 2 barrel 2000 shots in a minute - anything similar is not present in a film

For 15 seconds - when soldiers jumped from cars - ZU-23-2 has had time to shoot approximately 500 cartridges - a usual stock, Hadji could run without waiting the helicopter

The sight ZAP - 23 - has 3,5 X increase - does not allow a problem to get to a jeep if certainly in general you are able to shoot

Action ZU-23-2

From outside the operator

http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=1sSWry6Z0IU

On shooting on an air target

http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=uXVa0VyKdm0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=b7bJdDEsziI&feature=related

[lomir]

But not ZU-23-2, It has 190 grammes warhead a shell and speed of shooting from 2 barrel 2000 shots in a minute - anything similar is not present in a film.

For 15 seconds - when soldiers jumped from cars - ZU-23-2 has had time to shoot approximately 500 cartridges.

Alek, I am wrong to say that each cannon is feeded from a 50 cartridge belt, placed in the ammunition box? If they would use the maximum combined rate of fire you have mentioned (2000 rounds per minute), in 3 seconds the gun is dry Although I don't know the crew ability to replace so quickly the ammunition boxes, 500 rounds in 15 seconds sounds a little bit exagerated

[Flanker15]

My opinion on that scene from the show is basically:

After the gun blows up, one of the gunners should stand up and yell: "Damn you plot armour"!

You're not supposed to take it seriously, they didn't invest very much into realism for the series.

[Alex]

And what about trucks, it too no needs?

[lomir]

Right, what about trucks, Battlefront? With just one of this I could manoeuvre my whole Syrian Infantry Company!!

Jokes apart, it would be really nice to have some truck for the Red Side in the incoming module Thumbs up, Alex.

[YankeeDog]

I don't think the ZSU-23 would add a heck of a lot to the game tactically in Blue v Red fights -- the system does put out a lot of fire, but it's also very vulnerable to even small arms fire so in the vast majority of tactical situations, I don't think it would get many (if any) shots off before being suppressed and taken out.

It's also worth remembering that in a hypothetical Syrian conflict, Syria would probably need every AAA gun it has to protect airfields and other critical installations from low-level air attack and envelopment. The US has units specifically trained in airfield seizure, and the Syrians would definitely want to prevent, or at least delay this from happening. So I doubt they'd have many ZSU-23s to spare for front-line duty. With this said, sooner or later these important installations are going to get overrun, and it's reasonable to assume that the Syrians would turn any AAA weapons still functioning against approaching ground forces.

But I'd still love to see it in the game; pretty much all of the really important Red units have been added at this point, and having the ZSU-23 would be a fun bonus, even if it was mostly just another thing for Blue to blow up. Even better would be a generic truck for red, along with a truck-mounted version of the ZSU.

And Blue v. Red isn't the only way to play CMSF; I really enjoy Red v. Red fights, and in these fights light AAA could be a very interesting tool to work with (or against).

[Alex]

2 Steve

I understand, that you very busy now, and that BF do a big dial with CM serial, but this suggestion was made by some guys from russian forum, there we searched information, discussed it and forming this suggestion for 2 weeks. And all what you say it's: "thanks but we know what we do" - it's offended, a little. Especial when we both know, that not all moments in game have 100% substantiation under itself.

Well, anyway you did an great game.

[MikeyD]

I don't think the ZSU-23 would add a heck of a lot to the game tactically

I suppose it all depends on who you're fighting. Against Leopard 2? Probably not much, though it would be intresting to see what a prolonged burst would to to Leopard 2's rooftop optics. I don't know who would win a duel between a Shilka and little airborne 20mm Weisel, but I can guess.

Oh, I just thought. We may very well get to try out Shilka's utility before NATO arrives. I keep forgetting the actual Russian army will be invading us pretty soon in CM:Afghanistan.

[Scipio]

... Remember, we do not make "fantasy" games. ...

Steve

Ain't there a small contradiction ? The CMSF conflict is fully fictional. If you would have decided to give the invaded country a fantasy name instead of Syria, you would have been able to circumvent such 'creative bottle necks' without remorse!

[MikeyD]

Oh, Scipio, I know you know the difference between fantasy gaming and wargaming. The Army didn't run around the deserts of the southwest practicing for 30 years for a 'fantasy' European land battle. A commendable self-restrain on the developer's part is not a synonym for 'creative bottleneck'. Some posters would have Syrians driving both Pz IVs and T80s around the battlefield!

Besides. You take a the most historical WWII event you can recreate, reproduce it down to individual houses and units, even down to correct wrist watch types - As soon as you hit 'GO' is all a fantasy. Are you suggesting the WWII title should therefore throw historical accuracy to the wind?