c3k Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Okay, Time to vent; I set up overlapping Air Support area fire requests. I selected "Heavy" and "Medium" for my Tornado and Apache, respectively. Fortunately, I was fighting in open hills with my force mounted against unmounted enemy light infantry. My air support did a great job!! BOTH assets ignored the area I'd selected, instead, they shot OUTSIDE the area and each platform destroyed one of my vehicles. That's cool. I mean, wouldn't it suck being the only pilot to return to base with unused ordnance? Fire it at anything you can!! Grrr. I'm open to friendly fire incidents....especially when BMP's and Scimitars are operating near each other and the air support is not British. But, c'mon; if friendly fire was as common as it is in this game, NO ground commander would call in a strike within 10 klicks. Here's an idea (just so I don't get called a total complainer!). In the next iteration, allow/force the air support call to specify the target type!! So, I could set an area circle for air support and specify "infantry". A point target would not require that. Okay, there are some flaws with specifying a target type, like, what if I don't know about that tank hiding up there and the air support never fires on it? Thoughts? Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan8325 Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 I haven't had friendly fire incidents like yours, but I have seen enemy targets outside the air support request area be attacked by the aircraft. The area that you select with your FO probably isn't the exclusive area where the aircraft can look for targets but is more of a priority type of thing. I also wonder if more experienced and specialized FOs like the JTAC can make their air support requests fall more accurately inside the designated area. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combatintman Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 I haven't really tinkered with this in the latest build but I remember a friendly fire incident when playing the 2nd (I think) mission in the TF Thunder campaign. I used AH-64 to whack an area target drawn around two buildings to provide cover for a Bradley Platoon to cover half of the open ground and then dismount their troops. There was a fair degree of separation between the targeted area and my plotted moves for the Bradleys. Inevitably one of the Bradleys got whacked by AH cannon fire. There have been a few threads about this and I do think it is something that needs more fine tuning. The more flippant point is that I am not surprised the RAF missed - a 3 PARA Officer on Op HERRICK 4 famously described the RAF in an e-mail as 'Utterly, utterly useless'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Did he say why? I hadn't heard anything like that before! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Did he say why? I hadn't heard anything like that before! I'd like to hear more detail too. But it's known that the RAF had a poor rate in even completing strike missions in the Balkan conflicts so I'm wholly unsurprised that they still have difficulty with CAS. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeatEtr Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Well the Apache is known to be the "Drunken Shotgun of the Gods", the title from that thread about this problem. I sure as hell don't know how accurate CMSF is to the Apache in real life. But I know everytime I send in an Apache I cringe and at least make sure everybody is in cover and hiding. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apocal Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 The officer's name was Major James Loden, just run a search on it and you'll find news articles with more background. I can't seem to locate the original email however. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 But... but... why don't you do this for us? http://raincoaster.com/2006/09/23/major-james-lodens-emails-the-raf-have-been-utterly-utterly-useless/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Or this? http://tinyurl.com/mmw3rt Couldn't resist 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 http://aupress.maxwell.af.mil/ARI_Papers/HallAFRI2009-2.pdf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Or this? http://tinyurl.com/mmw3rt Couldn't resist Hey now, in my defence, it was only mentioned that some guy (no name!) wrote an e-mail. Kinda hard to google of that even if I had know it was an email that was publicly circulated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Hehe, didn't I say I couldn't resist? Damn I should read my posts before I post 'em Anyway, the 2nd link I found, deeper in google, has some nice references to various sources. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 http://aupress.maxwell.af.mil/ARI_Papers/HallAFRI2009-2.pdf Good article, Thanks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 My pleasure, I only found it by looking in the google links beyond the obvious UK tabloids. Reading it now as a matter of fact 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSX Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Same old story, Army blames RAF for lacking resources, RAF thinks Army are pants and doesnt understand what we do. probably a bit of both realy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Joch Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Its not just a RAF issue. In a recent PBEM game of "Streets of Hama" under 1.11, I also had a friendly fire incident where air units given an "area target" order that had a spotted stationary T-90 in the middle of the designated area, ignored the area and instead strafed friendly grunts running between two buildings about 200 meters outside the "area". I see two possible explanations, either Air Units are misidentifying units on the ground more than they should or we "players" are calling air strikes way too close to friendly units. Either way, its worth taking a second look. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmar Bijlsma Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 200m? That's very much danger close! Can't remember the exact RL numbers from when this last got discussed but basically, if you are calling down fire on a medium sized map, then no matter where you and the enemy are located, it is to be considered danger close. Having said that, I'm not seeing the wholesale slaughter of troops by blue on blue. It happens to my troops only very rarely. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 I have only had friendly fire with ffar's (rockets) and in the beginning, when dumb bombs where still in CMSF. Perhaps the odd stupid danger close arty or bomb casualty, but thats only when I really take to much risk and bombs are falling down all around my troops hiding in the cellar of a building 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lomir Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Don't know why, but lately I also have the strange feeling that in the moment that any of your troops get close to the "area target" radius, they instantly become the priority target, no matter which enemy forces are inside... But I've learnt to keep my pixeltruppen a good distance away from those areas and these kind of friendly fire incidents hasn't happened to me anymore. I'd like to share with you my last "friendly fire" incident: Normal Dude's Task Force Panther campaign (BTW, I'm enjoying it a lot!). First scenario ("Knees in the Breeze") at Aleppo International. It's completely dark. I send two guys on recon from a house to another one that is (IICR) 200-300 metres away, and unfortunately inside :eek: (but just for a few metres) an area target for an aircraft. The JTAC team is in the house that the two unlucky have already left and "controlling" the maneuver... The recon guys sneak through the darkness into the small house and they hide to observate the nearest complex of buildings... I don't need to continue to know how it ends: a huge crater I can imagine two situations for this to happen: Situation 1. The two poor guys get into the house. It's June, they are in a mainly Muslim country, but in this home the Christmas lights still are all over the place. The recon guys decide that it would be funny to check if they work. They do. The JTAC team has found a photocopier in working order in the first house. They are making copies of their butts while a Hornet decides to drop his bomb in what looks like a fair booth... Situation 2. There's been a huuuuge misunderstanding between the pilot and the JTAC team about friendly forces in a house inside the target area. So, my idea: all the friendly forces within the LOS of the air controllers (at least, the JTAC teams) should be considered safe from a direct attack, doesn't matter where they are. The JTAC team have control of the situation notifying the air assets what's going on and where not to shoot at without us needing to do a "cease fire". They still might be too close to the action radius of a bomb attacking some enemy unit inside the "area target", but friendly forces shouldn't be attacked directly when they are in the LOS of the JTAC! Of course, I'd leave some small chances that in this situation everything goes REALLY wrong and there are these kind of friendly fire incidents, so we can still have a shiver down our spine when we have those helicopters flying overhead... Cheers, Lomir 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Hehe, perhaps there have been some changes that I didn't notice, I tend to try to keep away from arty / bombs. However I don't think the JTAC team is able to report friendlies in the area targer area to the flyboys (ingame atleast). Would be some neat coding though 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Joch Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 The problem appears to be that players call in airstrikes too close to friendlies. A distance of 500-600 meters between "target area" and friendlies appears to be required to ensure friendlies are safe. YMMV this document discusses some of the issues around CAS and friendly troops: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/90-20/fm_90-20_jfire.pdf the interesting bits are at pages 69-71 of the pdf: -Any troops within 1 km of the target ("troops in contact") may be potentially at risk; -the "safe" distance between the target of an air strike and "friendlies" varies from 375 to 500 meters for dumb bombs/LGBs down to within 150 meters for 20-30 mm cannon fire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSX Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 The problem appears to be that players call in airstrikes too close to friendlies. A distance of 500-600 meters between "target area" and friendlies appears to be required to ensure friendlies are safe. YMMV This is the trouble with a lot of CMSF stuff. A lot of players seem to think that Hi Tech militaries can drop a thousand pound bomb 23 feet from their own forces. When in reality it just aint so. So in game, it shouldnt be so either. I think this problem with CMSF is not solely game or map size related but also a factor of knowledge. Joe average doesnt know much about modern warfare other than what he sees. This is often combat footage of smart weapons hitting a target etc. The reality is that it often takes a lot of effort to ensure that munitions get to the right place and sometimes things can go wrong and this is why you need to keep your guys as far back as possible. In real life one of the best CAS assets is the A-10, why, because it flies slower and the pilot has often more time to get it right, heck, they even fly with binos in the cockpit. Im always very careful with air support and never, repeat never give them an area target order. Always point targets. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted September 10, 2009 Author Share Posted September 10, 2009 Sure, if you KNOW where the point target is. In my case, I was using Apache's; night time, so their IIR was finding enemy infantry which my ground forces couldn't see (Image intensifiers aren't able to pick out the heat signatures.) Additionally, the ONLY vehicles in the area of operations were friendly vehicles. A hair more communications would clear that up. Ground guy: Cover us over by that "T" intersection. I don't know if any enemy are there. Air guy: Hey, I see a bunch of guys with weapons 50 meters north of the "T" intersection. Ground guy: Those guys 50 meters north of the "T" are NOT friendlies! Nail 'em. Air guy: Roger...(whoosh, BOOM, whoosh, BOOM) Ground guy: Thanks... Air guy: HEY! I see 3 wheeled vehicles about 300 meters SOUTH of the "T". Ground guy: THAT'S US! THAT'S US! Air guy: Roger, engaging target.... Ground guy: NO! CEASE FIRE! STOP! WAIT! Air guy: (whoosh, BOOM, whoosh, BOOM) Ordnance expended. RTB. Don't thank me; it's my job. Ground guy: (nothing but silence) Grrr... The specifics may be off, but that's the gist of target coordination between air and ground. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destraex1 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 not had it happen yet and was calling in a lot of Apache cover during my last mission. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Additionally, the ONLY vehicles in the area of operations were friendly vehicles. How do you know that? How does the pilot know that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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